pintle or ball hitch?

[bitternut]

What would be the best hitch for a 6 or 7 ton trailer, a pintle or a ball hitch? Trailer would be used soley for highway use and either setup would be used with the same trailer hitch on my truck. I don't want to go to a gooseneck trailer as I believe they are heavier and also more costly.

[Dakota]

bitternut,
The problem with a pintle hook and a trailer that heavy is that you would want to have an air ram on your pintle hook.  The air ram holds the ring tight in the pintle so it doesn't slop around and break the locking device on the pintle hook.

Dakota

[Corley5]

You'd be much happier with a gooseneck.  They cost only slightly more and well worth it

[Don_Papenburg]

I have found that with a bumper / rear hitch  that the tow vehicle should be twice the weight of the trailer . I would much rather have a goose neck.

[scsmith42]

Bitternut - I have a bunch of trailers.  Two goosenecks, two pintles, several ball, and some clevis.  My big gooseneck is a 45' long dual tandem with a 12.5 ton capacity, electro-hydraulic disc brakes, and a hydraulic dovetail.  I tow it behind an F350 dually.  I also have a 7.5 ton 20' flatbed gooseneck.

If you're towing behind an ton and a quarter truck (F450, C4500, etc), or smaller, you will have the greatest, and safest amount of towing capacity with a gooseneck.  The reason why is because you're placing the trailer tongue weight directly over and slightly in front of your rear axle, which distributes the weight across both axle's on your tow vehicle.  An added benefit of the gooseneck is that you can jacknife your truck 90 degrees to the trailer, which really helps in backing into tight spots.  It has been my experience that they tow much more smoothly than an equivalently loaded tag-a-long on the highway, with virtually no whip.

If you're towing behind a 2 ton truck or larger, then a pintle or large ball would be ok.

Re pintle versus ball, pintle's are easier to hook up, but in my experience they bounce around more while towing.  I prefer ball.

A gooseneck will weigh somewhat more than a tag-a-long, but because you're carrying the extra weight over your rear axle you actually gain with respect to overall towing capacity.

If your heart is set on a tag-a-long, for anything smaller than a one ton tow vehicle I would suggest a 2-5/16" ball and a load distributing hitch.  This is the next best thing - capacity wise - to a gooseneck.  The LD hitch makes a TREMENDOUS difference when towing.  If you can swing the extra bucks (about a grand), electrically operated hydraulic disc brakes stop as good or better than either air or vacum brakes, and they are a quantum leap better than the standard magnetic electric drum trailer brakes.

Good luck.

Scott

[Captain]

Nice post by Scott, just to add that ball hitches in the 6-7 ton class are hard to find. 

I'm currently overworking my 1 ton Chevy with a 10 ton log trailer, gotta rectify that soon with a much larger truck.

Captain

[Murf]

Scott is right on the money, the only thing I would add is that if you will be hauling stuff like equipment or heavy vehicles the pintle is much safer, the hitch has nearly as much strength to withstand upward force as downwards on the tongue.

A ball hitch only traps a very small piece of the shoulder of the ball and a lot of upward force, like a heavy load on the ramps, can cause the hitch to break free of the ball.

That tends to have a very negative effect on things, like your tailgate, anyone standing nearby, and your day generally.  :D

If a trailer has the proper amount of tongue weitght a pintle hitch shouldn't slop around any. Unless you have one of those goofy ball/pintle combination hitches.

[solodan]

I have a 7ton flatbed with a ball hitch. problem is all the 2-5/16" balls I have ever found are rated at 5k or 6k lbs. ??? where do I find a 2- 5/16" ball with a higher rating?

[Murf]

Solodan, you need a heat treated or trailer ball, they can go as high as 30,000 pounds capacity.

Check any of the big places, like Camping World or the manufacvturers, Reese, etc. ....

[bitternut]

I will be hauling with a 2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD. It is an extended cab 4x4 with the 6 liter engine. I would be hauling either my JD 350 dozer which is about 4 ton or my JD 5210 with loader. The tractor may also have the back hoe attached which most likely would up its weight to about 4 ton also and maybe a little more. Hauling would only be an occasional thing since I am retired and not really looking for another job.

Since the single axle trailer I built worked out so well I thought about building a dual axle heavy duty trailer myself but in reality I don't have a large enough garage to build it and move it around. I'm sure I could build as good as what I could buy if I had a large enough shop with a higher ceiling and a higher chain fall. It would require a major project to set up for building the trailer so I decided that it would be best to buy one. It would also be a lot less liability to have a purchased trailer. The trailers that I have looked at in the 6 to 7 ton range all seem to have the option of either a 2-5/16 ball or a pintle.

You guys have raised quite a few issues and seem to favor the gooseneck style. It seems to be the best option for drivability and turning ( maneuverability ). Since the road that my woods is located on is a narrow dirt road I suppose a gooseneck would be the easiest for access. I was not thinking gooseneck also because I wanted to have the use of the box on the truck while trailoring for gear and other items. I guess with a gooseneck one of those pop up balls in the bed would be the best set-up.

Well, guess I have a lot of researching to do yet and will have to decide which is best for my application. The waters are still muddy but you guys have raised some issues that I had not even thought of. Nothing like the voice of experience. Thanks guys for your input and advice.

[scsmith42]

Solodan - are those tongue weights or gross towing capacities?  Most balls are rated for tongue weight - which can be confusing.  Drawtite has a 1" shank ball rated for a 6K tongue weight (pn 63832), and an 1-3/4" shank ball rated at 12K tongue weight (pn 63834).  The drawtite hidden hitch that is on my F350 is rated for a 30K trailer weight, and 7,500 lb vertical load.  See http://www.drawtite-hitches.com/WD/dt_goose_hide_under.html for more info.

Bitternut - you're welcome!

A couple of comments - a trailer strong enough to tow a 350 dozer (I've got a 550B) will probably weigh between 4000 - 5000 lbs.  Add this to your 4 ton machine weight and you're looking at a 16K load.  Add this to the 6K truck weight and you've got a combined gross of 22K - a significant amount on a light truck.

The problem with a tag-a-long is going to be having the proper amount of tongue weight.  Not enough and the trailer will be highly unstable above 40 mph or so.  Too much and your truck will get way light in the front end.  Additionally, tire capacity on your truck is probably around 2800 lbs per tire, so your gross tire capacity on the rear axle would be about 5600 lbs, less about 2500 lbs of truck weight, or a net capacity of 3,100 lbs.  With a tag-a-long, since the moment is about 4' behind the axle,  you've got the additional problem of leverage increasing the force on the back tires due to a high tongue weight.

For these reasons (in addition to those already stated), you really should focus on a gooseneck.

Also, with the amount of weight I cannot emphasize enough the importance of high quality brakes.  For me, the typical magnetic brakes found on most trailers just don't cut it when haulling a significant load.  And your truck will not do a very good job of stopping a 22K combined load...

If you build your own, consider a "pierced beam" construction, where you run your deck support channels through the sides of your main support I-beams, instead of placing them on top.  This will lower your trailers CG by about 4".

Re the ball, I would recommend staying away from the "pop-up's as most of them are fairly low capacity.  Drawtite makes a real nice kit where all of the components are below the bed, and it allows you to quickly remove the ball by pulling a lever hidden above and behind your tire, and have a flush truck bed.  I prefer this over the ones that have a 1/2" steel plate in the middle of the bed.  The pop-up's also tend to get full of gunk and stuff, and when you go to use them will stick, or not lock properly.  The Drawtite kit runs around $400.00 or so, and is rated for a 30K trailer weight.

If you build your own, you ought to check out my hydraulic dovetail.  This is without a doubt the most practical and capable trailer that I have ever seen or owned for a light or medium truck.  You probably won't want one as long as mine, but the concept still works great on a shorter deck.  I'll be glad to send you some pix of it.

With the cost of steel, the price of a new high quality trailer will take your breath away...  One option that you may consider is to buy something used that is heavy enough for you, and then rework it to fit your needs.  An example would be to convert a pintle trailer into a gooseneck, or cut down one that is too long - reusing the parts that you removed to make your gooseneck tongue from.

Regards,

Scott

[Don K]

I have been following this thread with interest as I am shopping for a bigger truck and also a gooseneck in the heavier weight class range. Thanks for the link to draw-tite Scott.

[rebocardo]

Two excellence posts from Scott.

I have to say I worry about the ball pulling out while off road on my small trailers and I prefer a pintle/lunette setup, with a swivel on the trailer side and a spring loaded pintle to absorb impacts. I have been surprised how tough just a 15T pintle is that I bought from northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company. Think it weighed 50 pounds by itself :-D

> where do I find a 2- 5/16" ball with a higher rating?

northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company has a few different ones, one of the most useful
Item# 685333 $40

Personally, when I look at a 1" shank sticking out of a 2" channel with 1/4" walls on my receiver it just does not inspire confidence of keeping the load under adverse conditions, especially off road.

As Scott mentioned.

One thing I have noticed is the heavier trailers do tend to wag you having all that weight on the rear bumper, even with airbags for the rear axle to level it out. It still makes the steering feel lighter. I never used a WD hitch, main reason being off road it makes the trailer too low to the ground.

[Dan_Shade]

I'll take a pintle any day over a ball hitch.  I've never noticed my setup being clunky.

It scares me when I hear of backyard guys making gooseneck trailers out of tag-alongs, many people know how to do it, but a lot of people have no idea how to make a good penetrating weld. 

be careful out there, trailers are dangerous if they aren't hooked up right, or made safely.

I've seen people that refuse to use safety chains because the trailer may mess up their truck if it comes unloose while jerking around back there.... like I said, scary....

[scsmith42]

Guys, thanks for the compliments.

Rebo - I concur 100% re the pintle being much better for off-road use.  I've actually dinged the top of my bed rails pulling my short gooseneck off-road (it was designed more for a flat bed, so the rails are kinda low.

Don - There are a lot of trailer manufacturer in NE Texas.  My big one was made by Brute to my specs, and they really did a superb job (took them 4 months though).  PJ Trailers also has a great reputation, and their prices are reasonable (owned by Menonite's).  If you buy one with a deck longer than 30', consider getting one with a "torque tube" built into the front portion.  This helps to stiffen the front.

Dan, good point about the weld quality, especially since fabricating a gooseneck tongue typically requires vertical and overhead welds - difficult for many welders to do properly. Personally I like to make my root passes with 6010 on DC reverse polarity, with a 7018 cap, as opposed to MIG.  This helps ensure deep penetration.  Splices on tongues also get fishplated to help increase the strength.   Additionally, tag-a-long trailers typically have their axle's close to the center of the trailer, so these would need to be moved back a few feet to ensure adequate tongue weight under load.

Scott

[Quartlow]

Like many I prefer a gooseneck trailer. When I still had my flatbed (still kicking myself for selling it) I built a box on top of the gooseneck to store things in. If you do go with a tag along carrry some blocking with you to toss under the back corners. that way when your loading the trailer will only sink so far. We do it all the time even on pintle hitches. It just helps to take some of the stress off of the trailer and the hitch.

Scott
I disagree with one thing. Fishplating is bad news long term. sooner or later it will rust enough to bulge it and eventually it will break the welds.
We stretched the wheelbase of my brothers semi truck. Frame was cut off just behind the tranny and new frame rails where butt welded together. Only thing adding strength was a bolt in cross member that spanned the joint. It never once broke or cracked in 15 years.
Even when he got rearended by another semin years ago. He got hit so hard it drove him out from under a 20,000 pound mill roll. Broke the locks out of the fifth wheel and slid it. when it hit the stops it hit hard enough to bow the frame down so far that over the legth of the frame there was a 7 inch drop in it. But the welds held.

[scsmith42]

Quartlow - good point.  I've lived most of my life in the south, (in dry climates it seems), where rust has not been as much of a problem.  This could be an issue in salty areas - especially if the fishplate were installed within a few feet of the road or in an areas that could be subject to salty road spray.

[Qweaver]

While I agree that a gooseneck is a better way to haul heavy loads, not everyone can have one.  I don't have a pickup and I don't plan to get one.  I do have two trailers, an 18' and a 20', that are sprung for 14,000 lbs that handle 8,000 to 10,000 lbs quite well behind my 3/4 ton GMC van.  
Some of you may remember my post about my wife falling asleep while pulling two trailers and being able to recover from running off of the road and getting the whole rig sideways.  Awesome driving on her part and a towing/trailer setup that was stable enough to allow her to recover.  
For me, I feel quite comfortable pulling my trailers on my van trailer hitch for the short hauls around home and for the once or twice a year that I run between Texas and W.Va. with my tractor or other heavy load.  But if I planned on hauling on a daily basis, I'd buy a truck and a gooseneck trailer.  
BTW, take any welding advice given here with a grain of salt.  I've seen some advice given on this forum that sounded good but that was complete nonsense! The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff and good advice is hard to find.  A coded fabrication/vessel shop would be your best bet but that may be hard to find also.
Quinton

[scsmith42]

"BTW, take any welding advice given here with a grain of salt.   I've seen some advice given on this forum that sounded good but that was complete nonsense! "

Qweaver, you've obviously been reading my posts about welding!

:D  :D  :D

[Dan_Shade]

welders are kind of like chainsaws.  just cause you got one, don't mean you know how to use it!  But... there are MANY backyard shops out there that do know how to use a welder.  info isn't hard to find on how to weld and what works and what doesn't.  Most of the welding manufacturers have good information on methods and processes.  people tend to not like to do the required steps a lot of times, such as preheats if necessary, or post heats, or methods to slow down the cooling rates.  

Sometimes when the metal breaks beside the weld, it was because of the weld!

[Qweaver]

Nah SC, you give pretty good advice.  But I never use 6010 to make a root pass unless I am welding a closed tube or other fitup where I can not get to the backside to put in a backweld then backgrind and weld the front side.  I'm not saying that your way is wrong but few "weekend" welders can achieve a good quality root pass with 6010 or a vertical weld with 7018.  My brother-inlaw is a retired pipe welder and "hippie" rod is the only rod he keeps in his shop. Hey, he makes really excellent/strong downhill welds on EVERTHING, and I'd never try to change him...but that's not what I'd teach new welders to do.
Woops, kinda hi-jacked this thread.  I use balls not pintles. :
Hey, the rain has stopped and the sun is out.  Time to shut down the computer and get back to work. :D
Quinton

[scsmith42]

Quinton, I guess that my Texas "roots" are showing! Most of my old pipefitter friends swear by P5, but then again that was 25 years ago and knowledge and technology changes.

It's back out into the pastures for me to.  Take care.

SS

[Quartlow]

Scott
thats one of the problems we run into up here is salt, Condensation will do you in too. I don't care how tight you get a fish plate, it's going to sweat. Condenstaion did my brother in. He had a piece of 6 inch heavy wall pipe rust out from the inside out on the tag axle years ago. Caused a major wreck where he actually rolled the truck over a bank. DOT cop took one look at it and said there was no way on earth you would have found that during an annual inspection. That was a factory assembly unmodified by us in any way shape or form.

I've learned one thing. For every way you find to do something theres ten other ways that every one else swears is better.  ;D Best thing I've learned over the years is take all the advice toss it together and do what works best for you.

[scsmith42]

Quartlow - you said it bro!

That's the great thing about FF - lots of good ideas and feedback here - some from pro's, some from RKI's (reasonably knowledgeable individuals), and some from the rest of us!

SS

[Qweaver]

If a doubler/reinforcement plate or what you are calling fishplate is bolted to the the structure that you are reinforcing then there is some possibility that corrosion will occur if not properly done.  But if the plate is welded with an "air tight" weld, then when the small amount of oxygen that is trapped between the plate is used up...then no further rusting is possible.  Your brother's axle must have had some way for mosture to get inside the axle for the corrosion to occur...and it takes more than a weld defect like a pinhole for that to happen.  Look at the millions of doublers than are routinely welded onto pipes and vessels that do not rust out...and most of these have 1/4" weep holes and they still don't rust out.  I've had students build hundreds of pipe axles and I've built many myself and I've yet to see one rust out from the inside unless there was an easy way for mosture to get inside.  Rust can not occur without a supply of oxygen and moisture.  Once the available oxygen is coverted to ferrous oxide it is "locked up" and no more rust will/can happen.  BTW, no weep hole is required in a doubler for a structural member and I even question their purpose in liquid filled pipes and vessles but if the specs call for it, we do it.

Quinton