For Husky, Stihl, etc.... Is the chainsaw future battery powered?

[gspren]

Since this battery saw thread got revived I'll throw in a reminder, while your 7 year old child or grand child probably can't start your gas saws they could start a battery saw and do serious harm, watch how they are stored!

[beenthere]

Since this battery saw thread got revived I'll throw in a reminder, while your 7 year old child or grand child probably can't start your gas saws they could start a battery saw and do serious harm, watch how they are stored!

As well as other un-trained wannabe's, such as relatives and family members (spouse included). Having to pull-to-start is one safety device. ;)

[axeman2021]

 Today there use is limited to the smaller size trees and limbs, as many tree climbing tree trimmers use them because size weight and no yanking to start.

As the batteries get more powerful and keeping the size of the battery small, you will start seeing the battery powered chainsaws in use where today you only find gas powered chainsaws.

[Real1shepherd]

As been said I see the gasoline powered tools on a trajectory that will intersect the battery powered tools trajectory in the future.

Problem is the batteries themselves......we've been waiting for the 'new' battery technology since the lithium ion battery came out. Electric car manufacturers are on their knees praying to their battery gods for this 'new' battery technology.

But like Bob said, batteries still drive the actual mechanical functions and that needs to be repaired. Most of my work drills/drivers are battery. But if I know it's going to be a long interval, I'll switch to corded. And when I have a serious amount of holes to drill, out comes the Holehawg.

I can't even tell ya how many rechargeable drills/drivers I've repaired. The pro models with all metal transmissions are a wonder. Some of the new impact chargeables are truly amazing. But the batteries themselves inside are pretty complicated with circuits;too hot they shut down, tampering with the electronics and they 'brick' etc. They don't lend themselves to any kind of easy or universal repair. Where do you get information on fixing rechargeable batteries(?), you don't.....you go on YouTube and look at all the hacks.  

I doubt in my lifetime I will see a pro electric chainsaw to fell & buck serious timber. It would take the 'new' battery technology to happen. They are making lithium ion batteries lighter that have the same load capacity(or more) as previous lithium ion........that's about it for progress at this point.

Kevin

[sumpnz]

The batteries themselves are the biggest impediment to electrification.  Doesn't matter if it's a car, a semi, or a chainsaw.  And it's not just one issue.  The energy density is part of it.  The best batteries in the world are pathetic compared to a tank of gas of comparable overall tool weight (so even taking advantage of the smaller/lighter electric motor vs ICE).  Upthread quite a ways someone discussed the advances in computer capabilities and size.  Well, those can follow Moore's Law (the speeds would double about every 2 years) which has broken down lately, but held for a very long time.  Battery energy density however does not follow Moore's Law, it is instead constrained by chemistry.  From the first batteries that Edison produced to today there's only been about a 10x improvement (25Wh/kg to 250Wh/kg).  If batteries followed Moore's Law since Edison's time a 1kg battery would be in the ZettaWatt-hr range (1 trillion GigaWatt-hrs or about 40,000 years worth of global electricity consumption).

I work for an automotive (trucking) OEM.  The weight of batteries is a big issue.  That semi that Musk was pimping a while back?  He claimed a 500mi range.  For the batteries he said they'd use (same as Model 3) it would require 14,000lbs of batteries.  An entire Kenworth T680 tractor with a mid-size sleeper and full fuel tanks weighs about 14,000lbs.  That battery weight was just that.  Only the batteries.  Not the structure to hold them, or any of the rest of the tractor.  It's no wonder so little has been heard of that truck in a couple years.

Anyway, energy density and therefore weight of the batteries for a given duration is one problem.  But then there is recharge time.  A gas saw came be "recharged" is under a minute by pouring some more gas in.  While you can swap batteries that means having to own extra batteries.  Which isn't cheap and is another (heavy) thing to lug around.  Especially if your use case would require enough extra batteries to get through a long work day out in the bush.  Or you can wait around for it to recharge.  But, even if an outlet is handy, fast charging isn't necessarily a great solution because the faster you charge a battery the more it degrades.  We all know how our cell phones eventually can't make it through a day without recharging anymore.  Same thing happens in a BEV car or tool battery.  That saw that initially could cut for 45 minutes on a charge after a year of light use might only degrade to 42-43 minutes if always slow charged and kept from ever running too low.  But with hard use and constantly running it empty and then using super fast charging it might be down to 20-25 minutes of cut time after less than a year.  So then you're looking at having to replace those batteries ($$$) and dispose of the old ones.

I won't even get into the environmental side if things, but suffice it say that battery power isn't as "green" as some like to think.  I suspect I'd be preaching to the choir for the most part here on that score though. 

All of this is not to say battery saws are worthless.  I watch a couple arborist channels on YouTube and they seem to like their battery saws, for certain applications.  One guy commented that his battery saws kept people from calling the fire marshal on him in the heat of the summer.  He also seemed to really like it for limbing and topping trees, but eventually he'd send the battery saws down to exchange for a gas saw.  

And for the homeowner that only needs to put 1-5 hours a year on a chainsaw they're probably superior overall to gas power.  

I'll probably get one eventually.  But for now it's not quite the right tool for what I need.

[Ianab]

That's a pretty fair assessment. The battery capacity and charge times aren't quite there yet for a lot of uses. 

Electric cars are now practical for many uses. Electric rubbish trucks and busses are a thing because they might only do 100 miles a day, stop / go city traffic, where electric does shine.  We  have electric passenger ferries and Auckland port has now has an electric harbour tug. The tug is more of a hybrid, with a diesel backup because it would be an embarrassment in an emergency, but it should be able to run 98% electric.  The diesel generator is relatively small, but enough to sail normally, or recharge the battery over time. The main engines are electric. 

[Real1shepherd]

Electric cars fires are pretty foreboding. A standard firetruck pumper cannot put them out. It usually requires some chems.

Add to that the amount of resources used in making those electric cars and their attraction starts to diminish. And if you're looking towards Tesla as the great electric car success story....they're having some serious issues.

However, batteries in hand held gizmo's....great, keep them going!

Kevin

[lxskllr]

Electric cars are a net positive for emissions...

Electric cars have much lower life cycle emissions, new study confirms | Ars Technica

As far as fires go, well... Life sucks. Just let it burn out. Not like you can put out an ICE fire in any meaningful sense. You usually end up with a steel shell in the end.

[Real1shepherd]

" Finally, the study accounts for the fact that energy production should become less carbon-intensive over time, based on stated government objectives."

Bieker is factoring in variables for his paper that haven't even happened yet. Also, he says there is no future for the internal combustion engine if we are to decarbonize. Given that we've had over a 100yrs in that technology, that's just a foolish statement. We could easily push 100mpg internal combustion engines which would incredibly relieve the pressure on fossil fuels.  

As Detroit fades away, they are still pushing/selling high hp cars & trucks. That should only be a tiny percent of their operations....those cars & trucks. Evolution will eventually take place and from the Gen Z's on, they will care less and less about fast, fossil fueled cars.

In my lifetime, I've seen this in so many other venues;throw the baby out with the bathwater. Then, even though there are enormous regrets, you can't go back.

Kevin

[CUT N RUN]

California  ( u.s.a.) is trying to pass laws banning the sale of small gas engines, ( if they havent already )- lawnmowers, generators , chainsaws , etc. starting in 2024 . ( and maybe sooner ) Landscaper companies  are not happy.... how many batteries will it take to mow all day long ? not to mention the initial cost of replacing their equipment.

[Southside]

The state that can't keep its grid up and running wants to put more burden on it.  Makes complete sense.  Pump flood water out of your basement with a battery powered trash pump.  Power your well when PG&E shuts down the lines.  Climb a 30" diameter tree with only a battery saw.  Yup, that will all work out.  

[Al_Smith]

The last 29 years of my working life was on automotive manufacture of Ford engines .As such as technology progressed the use of DC servo motors came into being .One company "electro_ craft " had two city busses using two 40 HP motors on large busses that worked out real well .So this stuff is not out of the question in certain applications .For those who do not know 40 electric is much higher than 40 HP gasoline or diesel but many people like to argue about that fact --just saying   

[Spike60]

The auto industry is much farther along on this curve than the OPE industry, and they have until 2035 before going all zero emmissions vehicles in CA. OPE simply cannot get there by 2025, and I'd expect the industry to petition the state to be allowed the same timetable as the auto manufacturers.

In addition to the fact of the equipment not being ready beyond low power/short run time applcations, the "where do the old batteries go?" question still has no answer. In order to sell the Gravely battery commercial Z, dealers have to become hazmat certified, as Gravely wants this burden to fall on the dealers rather than themselves. The battery disposal/recycle program that will surely be in place for the auto industry can hardly be created by the OPE industry.

[HemlockKing]

California  ( u.s.a.) is trying to pass laws banning the sale of small gas engines, ( if they havent already )- lawnmowers, generators , chainsaws , etc. starting in 2024 . ( and maybe sooner ) Landscaper companies  are not happy.... how many batteries will it take to mow all day long ? not to mention the initial cost of replacing their equipment.

I feel my country is going this way, we are doing the 2035 zero emissions in the automobile industry too. I've been hoarding any kind of combustion engines I can as spare parts. I need to buy a new  truck again in a couple years, I want a tundra 8 cylinder but now they only make them in v6 with turbo and that just don't last as long as a base gas engine. Hopefully I can find a 2020ish model with very low KMs

[Real1shepherd]

Yep....heard that about the Tundras. Find the newest V-8 you can find and hang on to it. My ex has been leasing one and I told her she needs to hang on to it. But she's downsizing and got essentially out of livestock.....so it's probably going to be turned back in at the end of the lease....pity.:-\

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

The auto industry is much farther along on this curve than the OPE industry, and they have until 2035 before going all zero emmissions vehicles in CA. OPE simply cannot get there by 2025, and I'd expect the industry to petition the state to be allowed the same timetable as the auto manufacturers.

In addition to the fact of the equipment not being ready beyond low power/short run time applcations, the "where do the old batteries go?" question still has no answer. In order to sell the Gravely battery commercial Z, dealers have to become hazmat certified, as Gravely wants this burden to fall on the dealers rather than themselves. The battery disposal/recycle program that will surely be in place for the auto industry can hardly be created by the OPE industry.

This is a real problem with E-cars....where do all those dead batteries go? Is it gonna be like nuclear waste and they get sealed up in concrete tombs and buried in the desert??

The 'greenies' have no concept on the resources in mining and elsewhere to make those E-car batteries.....anything but 'green'.

But ya know....we can all float down the River Denial together.....kill internal combustion engines and throw the baby out with the bath water.

Kevin