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Author Topic: Should I sell my mill?  (Read 3248 times)

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Offline Raym

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Should I sell my mill?
« on: June 23, 2021, 08:20:51 AM »
I am looking for advice on wether to sell my mill or not. 

I have been approached by 3 people (that I know) in the last month wanting to buy it.

Here is a little background info....

I purchased it (LT40 super) new in 14. That was when I quit my regular job and went in business for my self. My business plan was for the mill to provide about 50-60% of my income and I was already doing enough side work providing custom millwork for residential builders and the 2 sources of income would allow me to work for myself.

I know I bought way more mill than I needed for what I was planning but I bought this for 2 reasons.

1. When I wanted to saw, I wanted to "saw", and not be limited by the equipment.
2. If things didn't work out, I wanted something that would have a good resale market.

Fast forward to 2021....
My custom millwork part of the business really took of and I never really was able to develop the milling portion of my business plan although I still held out hopes. I even hired a full time employee in 16 to help but other work just kept coming in. Here we are in 21 and I have so much work (and its good paying work) that I just cant seem to carve out time to saw.

I have looked back at this year and have only sawn maybe 10 days. I still have a bunch of logs that need sawing.

PROS...

*Generate some capital for other equipment but I don't know what that would be other than upgrading some of my shop equipment or a moulder planer. however a sawmill would be the perfect accessory for that.

*I wouldn't have to walk past it hearing it begging to be run.

*Currently I think that I could get more than I paid for it.

BUT.....here are the cons....
25% of a sale will go towards taxes.
I really, really enjoy the time I get to saw.

My current mindset is to just hang on to it until I somewhat retire and being able to do some mobile milling but that seems to be in about 3-5 years which seems like a long time for it to continue to sit idle.

The first (non-spiritual) thing I check and read in the morning is the Forestry Forum as I still have a strong interest in sawmills and sawmilling.

I look forward to you input.

Thanks Ray




'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Online mike_belben

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2021, 08:44:51 AM »
Pray on it. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline scsmith42

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2021, 08:53:59 AM »
Ray, I'm going to think out loud for a bit.

As I've gotten older I find that I divide equipment into two categories.  First category is shop equipment that does not degrade from non use.  Milling machines, lathes, grinders, belt sanders, shapers, table saw, etc - if they sit unused (inside of course) for a few years in a dry environment they won't degrade much.

Powered outdoor equipment, on the other hand - is in a separate category.  When these items sit unused there is degrade.  Belts, hoses, hydraulic lines, mice chewing wiring, etc, it's usually not good for a piece of equipment to sit unused.

I'll readily confess that I'm a tool junkie, but as I've gotten older I've started getting rid of powered equipment that I'm no longer using.  It does not make sense to me to watch it sitting and degrading; versus liquidating it and using the funds for something else that I can and will use more frequently.

If you're able to use the mill every other month or so, and it's under a shelter, then it probably won't degrade much from lack of use.  However, if it goes many months at a time, in a few years when you might want to use it more you could have a maintenance nightmare on your hands.

So for that reason I'd seriously consider selling it.  Plus, if Biden is successful in increasing capitol gains tax then you could get hit with even higher taxes if you sell in a year or two.  You also might be able to do some type of barter on the mill and reduce the tax liability.

Just some things to think about.

Scott

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Offline dirtymartini

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 08:56:30 AM »
Is it paid for? If it is I would keep it. It's not eating anything and if you changed your mind down the road it will cost you more to replace it. 

Offline DixieReb31

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 12:07:17 PM »
FWIW, donít let someone else desires cost you yours. Just because the three others say or insinuate they would use it more often is not grounds for selling.  Itís not eating anything while it sits.  Sounds like you donít really need the money from its sale.  Iíd hang on to it just because I WANT IT.  I have a plethora of tools, gadgets and useless items that I own just for the sole reason of ďwanting itĒ. 
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2021, 12:24:12 PM »
Iíd keep it, you never know what tomorrow will bring. It could suddenly be the tool you use the most. Last year I had a brief thought of selling my mill because I was working so much overtime that I didnít have time to run it. I decided to keep it and that was a good thing. In March I put in my notice at my day job and started running my mill full time. At this point I have enough work to get me into late fall. A couple weeks ago the place I was working went bankrupt and fired everyone. I firmly believe the Lord has been very involved with every aspect of the growth of my sawmill business. 
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Offline alan gage

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2021, 01:06:28 PM »
Tough call and obviously one that only you can make.

If next year finds us in the same situation as this year I'll seriously consider selling my mill because prices are up and I'll have depleted my current log inventory and should have enough hardwood to last my lifetime.

When I started milling I thought I'd use it to make money but that ship has sailed and I find I keep plenty busy only milling for myself. My mill is mostly hydraulic but I think I could get by pretty well with a manual mill going forward. So part of me thinks sell while the price is high and buy back when the price is low in a few years (if I decide I want a mill again).

My personal recommendation would be that if later down the line you think you might repurchase the same mill then don't bother selling it now. If later down the line you think you can get by just fine with a substantially cheaper mill (or no mill at all) then it might be a good idea to sell now while prices are so crazy.

Alan
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Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2021, 01:40:43 PM »
Where do you have it stored? 

Is it under cover and protected and away from mice? 

Or is it buried above it's axle and hubs in sawdust and rusting away, the tires flat and rotting of their rims, under a rotted blue tarp that holds more water than it sheds and animals eating the wiring.

If you are able to store it out of the weather I would be more leaning to keeping it.  If it is rotting away then selling it while it still has some value may the the way to go.  A lot of people "park" equipment they don't have time to use and when they finally get around to it, it is so rotted away to the point it is no longer useful or will require tons of parts and maintenance.

Offline Nebraska

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2021, 03:59:14 PM »
If it's not in the way and has a good protected spot to live, I would keep it. 

Offline fluidpowerpro

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2021, 05:39:24 PM »
If you dont need the money, keep it. 
Guaranteed as soon as you sell it you will have a need for it and be kicking yourself.
Keep it stored out of the weather and fire it up every so often just to keep things loose. 
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full falls off the top shelf and hits the top of your head!

Offline Daburner87

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2021, 06:07:32 PM »
I see a big benefit in selling it now and turning a small profit on the sale.  That oppurtunity almost never comes around.  The benefit is the market is about to turn for the worse.  Lumber prices are dropping and the sawmill demand is going to disappear, and in 3-5 years(when you retire) I bet you will be able to find a better machine for much less.  


There are no sales with the current demand and a huge backorder on sawmills everywhere, but what is sure to follow in the next couple years is a major sales drought.  When orders slow down there will be big discounts and sales to keep business going.  That would be a good time to buy.

I know a guy who bought a Tundra for $20K and sold it for $28K....  The market is crazy for everything, but it wont stay that way for long.  Take advantage while you can.
Soon to be  owner of a HM130Max Woodlander XL

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2021, 07:47:26 PM »
   If you are relatively sure you are not going to want to use it in the near future I'd offer to sell it for stupid money - maybe 50% more than a new one like it. If they complain about the price tell them the truth "But I don't want to sell it." If they want it that bad and buy it, bank the money and order a new one just like it or like what you want and see what you think in a year or so when the new one is ready.
Howard Green
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Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Southside

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 11:10:34 PM »
Well the only thing guaranteed is that things are going to change. The question is what will the future look like.  My business in NO way resembles what I had planned.  Could things turn around tomorrow?  Absolutely, so I want to be in a position where I can adapt and having multiple avenues ready to go provides options.  If the mill isn't costing you anything then I would say keep it.  You may find it saves you when things change.  If the mill makes a financial difference in your monthly income, and you can sell it for a profit, then move it - but make sure you use that money wisely. 

I still have all of my logging equipment, including a CTL processor.  Yup - it's old, but it will run right now if needed and if the lumber market crashes and I can't sell boards, then I will be the guy who can sell logs at what will be the "new normal" bottom prices and still keep a roof over my head.  
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Offline donbj

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 12:03:27 AM »
If it's not a burden financially, keep it, that simple. It's obvious it add to your life in a good way. The days will come when you can use it and enjoy it. Even if it's just once in a while. I almost sold mine when I retired but just could not do it, glad I didn't. It's just a hobby level thing for me now, I don't "need" it, but still want it. Just can't do it at this point in time.

Got a chainsaw addiction to go along with it!
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

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Offline tacks Y

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2021, 08:43:03 AM »

Offline alan gage

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2021, 01:07:41 PM »
A couple weeks ago the place I was working went bankrupt and fired everyone.
That's really interesting. I knew nothing about the business or industry other than the little you'd posted here but I thought things were going hot and heavy. Did it come as a surprise to you?
Alan
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Offline Raym

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2021, 03:44:28 PM »
All good advise....

So....Yes it is paid for (didn't borrow to begin with) and don't really need the money. It's the unknown thats frustrating. My gut tells me the building industry is going to bust within a year and if thats the case I will be glad to have a mill. On the flip side we have had an abundance of work since '14. 

I have also been trying to figure out how to scale back on some of our other work to free up some time for some more "fun" work. Of course its mostly all fun since I get to walk 60 feet to work. (well to be honest, I ride the golf cart)
'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Offline alan gage

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2021, 05:18:13 PM »
My gut tells me the building industry is going to bust within a year and if thats the case I will be glad to have a mill.


Just curious about why would it be good to have a mill in that case? Presumably lumber will be cheap and there will be a lot of new sawmill owners out there all cutting each others throats. Or at least that's what my gut tells me. :)
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Offline farmfromkansas

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2021, 06:46:38 PM »
Search the Big Iron website.  There was one on their online auction a couple months ago that brought a huge pile of money.
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

Online stavebuyer

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2021, 05:08:12 AM »
Personally I would sell. The last year has created some bizarre outcomes that I wouldn't think can continue. I would put the cash to work by investing it to enhance the millwork end of your business as I put a great deal of stock in the old adage that you are either growing or going out. Bigger kiln, I-dry, faster planer whatever. Wouldn't take much to outperform something sitting in a corner collecting dust.

Nothing wrong with having a high end mill as a hobby as there are plenty of worse ways to spend money but if its not how you enjoy spending your free time; as a business asset it does not appear to offer much benefit for your operation.





Offline nativewolf

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2021, 06:57:28 AM »
I'm with stavebuyer on this one.  This market is a bit crazy, so if you are going to sell this is the time to do so.

So so many people are buying mills today that I can't help but think that in 2-3 years there will be plenty of used equipment hitting the market either the markets turn down and people need cash or they find sawing is not for them.
Liking Walnut

Offline Lostinmn

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2021, 09:59:17 AM »
I'm with stavebuyer on this one.  This market is a bit crazy, so if you are going to sell this is the time to do so.

So so many people are buying mills today that I can't help but think that in 2-3 years there will be plenty of used equipment hitting the market either the markets turn down and people need cash or they find sawing is not for them.
I gotta say I'm having the similar thoughts.  
As I have limited time this year and likely next to saw anyways, I was thinking of selling my manual mill with the crazy prices, and move up to a hydraulic one.  Either new which I can wait for long lead times, or as nativewolf notes, there may be some good deals coming down the pike.  
Interesting possibilities 

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2021, 10:05:21 AM »
   Or you could sell now, order a new hydraulic and if you find a better deal on a good used one before it arrives you could buy it, call and cancel the new order and just forfeit your deposit for the new one. 
Howard Green
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Offline OffGrid973

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2021, 12:17:04 PM »
Sell to someone local and keep a 1/12th share allowing you to bring logs and mill one month a year during downtime :)   This way you stay engaged and still continue to bleed orange !!!
Your Fellow Woodworker,
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Offline barbender

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2021, 12:49:37 PM »
You're getting some great advice here, and I don't have anything to add. Personally,  I am hoping that I can afford  a Command Control LT70 in a few years when the market is flooded😁
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Raym

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2021, 04:13:56 AM »
My gut tells me the building industry is going to bust within a year and if thats the case I will be glad to have a mill.


Just curious about why would it be good to have a mill in that case? Presumably lumber will be cheap and there will be a lot of new sawmill owners out there all cutting each others throats. Or at least that's what my gut tells me. :)


I guess I'm looking at it from a different perspective. If When new construction resets I will not be behind before starting the next job. For example, the next project up is a 13,000.00 set of custom builtins for a house that closes 7/14.

Therefore, I will have time to saw, market and sell, but I would also love to mostly start advertising for mobil sawing gigs. I still have about 2000' of live edge cedar slabs in the kiln that I haven't been able to remove, tag, and market for sale.

Also, the most fun I think I have had is when we put the shingle belt on the resaw attachment to saw shingles to be used as shakes on my shops gables.

And if you can read between the lines, it sounds like I really want to keep it. Just a process to make sure I'm not being stupid and or unrealistic.
'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Offline barbender

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2021, 09:46:05 AM »
It's paid for, you enjoy it, and you don't need the money...do I really have to say what I think you should do?😊
Too many irons in the fire

Offline bannerd

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2021, 12:48:32 PM »
If something has capability I would keep it.  I have no issue selling stuff that isn't capable.  I have a gilson lawn mower that I use all the time and when it came time to sell.. I kept the 1979 gilson and sold the 2018 john deere.  It had no capabilities but a mowing deck.

Capability is why people are looking for a more feature mill and you pay for it.  Granted it's not worth keeping two or three things that do the same stuff but always good to have one that does.

Offline Raym

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2021, 03:14:46 AM »
It's paid for, you enjoy it, and you don't need the money...do I really have to say what I think you should do?😊
Well Sir, no you don't. ;D

Actually if I were to read my original post as if it were from someone else I would advise them the same. I am one to constantly evaluate situations like this though.

Being a command control super 40 with a pre tier 47hp yanmar its hard for me to believe that I would ever replace it.
Thanks to all....
'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Offline Klicker

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2021, 06:36:56 AM »
NO  You have what you like and want. To many people chasing a buck instead of enjoying what they have.
2006 LT 40 HD

Offline taylorsmissbeehaven

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2021, 07:24:48 AM »
I have to admit that I am a tool junkie as well. I have my mill, a tractor, and a mini excavator that are for my wood hobby addiction. I don't use them everyday but they are all run at least every other week on my property or another. They support the mill but can do other tasks as well. When Covid hit last year, my 10 kitchen remodels turned quickly into 2 kitchen remodels. People simply did not want us in their houses. It sure was nice to go saw logs and do small grading projects, outside where all felt safe and we all kept a weekly paycheck coming in. No telling what the future will hold so Ill keep my "toys" for my hobby enjoyment and maybe a fall back if the Delta variant (or whatever craziness comes next) stirs all this mess back up. JMTC, Brian
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Offline 78NHTFY

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2021, 04:49:12 PM »
Raym--keep it!  Enjoyment, especially something your really, really enjoy, is a big part of what life's all about...
If you can't get to it often enough, maybe have a relative, friend come over and saw for you, so it gets some use.  I just turned 700 hrs on my LT40--by far not used enough over the past 15 years, but it's held up without any degradation worth speaking about, starts everytime and does what I need done perfectly when I want it done.  All the best, Rob. 
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Offline Percy

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2021, 11:49:36 AM »
NO  You have what you like and want. To many people chasing a buck instead of enjoying what they have.
Wise words. I too have learned that the ďmoneyĒ thing ainít all itís cracked up to be. Thinking with your heart as opposed to your wallet is good advice IMO
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Offline Stephen1

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2021, 01:01:09 PM »
my reply didn"t go through the other day.
Waiting to go portable in 3-5 years? that is definitly a big ? mark. Your older and it is not the easiest job. 
Do you have a kiln? Are you processing logs for your millwork buisness?
Do you buy KD lumber to process for your millwork? 

I would sell the mill and hire someone the few days a year to come and saw your logs. I bet he even lets you run his mill. 
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Offline Raym

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2021, 05:56:23 AM »
my reply didn"t go through the other day.
Waiting to go portable in 3-5 years? that is definitly a big ? mark. Your older and it is not the easiest job.
Do you have a kiln? Are you processing logs for your millwork buisness?
Do you buy KD lumber to process for your millwork?

I would sell the mill and hire someone the few days a year to come and saw your logs. I bet he even lets you run his mill.
Yes I do have a kiln and do process lumber for my millwork side of things, and also yes, I frequently have to walk past logs and a sawmill to unload purchased KD lumber.
Yes in 3-5 years I will be 61-63 years young. I feel as though I will still be capable. As the song goes, I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was......
I received a call form one of the people (a friend) that wants to purchase the mill. Even after throwing out a number 25% higher than I have invested he wants to have breakfast Saturday.
My gut is now being pulled in two directions.....
'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Offline Magicman

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2021, 08:09:28 AM »
I sorta just went through some of the same thought process.  I am trying to slow down and seriously considered an offer that was well over twice what I paid for my sawmill.  It would have been been a win-win for both of us, but at 78, I have to admit that I love sawing.  In a couple of years I will have made what the offer was and I will still have the sawmill.  It's selling value may diminish somewhat but the actual value will not and it could be sold at any time.  If it would be a good investment for someone to buy it, then it is an even better investment for me to keep it.

Your gut will eventually tell you what to do.
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Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2021, 11:07:10 AM »
Lynn,

   You know you will never sell. When you finally pass on they will no doubt set your mill up in the lobby of the Smithsonian with a wax magic Man sitting on the seat under the umbrella. ;)
Howard Green
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2021, 04:58:26 PM »
Lynn,

   You know you will never sell. When you finally pass on they will no doubt set your mill up in the lobby of the Smithsonian with a wax magic Man sitting on the seat under the umbrella. ;)
Well, perhaps, but I think Marty or his son might have other thoughts on that. ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
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OK, maybe I am the woodcutter now.
I can work with wood, but I am NOT a Woodworker, yet.

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2021, 10:58:20 PM »
Tom,

   Well, I figured it would be at least 30 more years before Lynn retires and by then Marty may have found new interests. I am still waiting on Lynn to loan me Luke for a few months and I'm going to introduce him to my oldest GD and then I figure he will never want to leave WV again and I will have poached me a good trained off-bearer and by then he may inherit my mill/business and I can go fishing and hunting full time. ;)
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline burdman_22

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2021, 11:38:54 AM »
You could always sell it to me! I thought I was purchasing a mill this weekend...but the guy sold it before I could get up there...after him putting me off for weeks. Now I've got a storage lot reserved and 100 SYP logs but no mill   :D

Offline Raym

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2021, 03:22:15 AM »
You could always sell it to me! I thought I was purchasing a mill this weekend...but the guy sold it before I could get up there...after him putting me off for weeks. Now I've got a storage lot reserved and 100 SYP logs but no mill   :D
I know you are somewhat kidding. But I would not insinuate that it is for sale here without going through the proper channels.....I have not, nor do I want to go to the woodshed....  :D
'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Offline Raym

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2021, 07:13:43 AM »
Well after much agonizing, the mill is sold. It came down to 2 questions I kept asking myself.

1. If I had 52,000.00, would I purchase this exact sawmill.....eventually the answer was no.
2. If I had a free day (or no real schedule conflicts) would I prefer to saw or go fishing. Believe it or not, this took some time to answer but my wife (and captain) helped me answer. Lets go fishing.

So....expected 4/2022..... 






The good news is that it is sold to an acquaintance so the possibility of "renting" some mill time does exist.
'14-LT40 super, nyle l200m kiln, vintage case 480E loader.

It's not the fool that askith, it's the fool that agreeith.

Offline Magicman

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2021, 07:40:21 AM »
Your gut will eventually tell you what to do.
So it eventually did with your wife's input and urging.  I respect well thought out decisions so I say; Congratulations!!
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Offline kevin5055

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2021, 09:35:26 AM »
25% of a sale will go towards taxes.
Can someone expand upon this for me please? I'm not a business owner. Someone else mentioned about capital gains, but wouldn't you only be taxed on the profit from the sale (i.e. sale price minus original price)?  

Offline wayback40

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2021, 10:30:25 AM »
As a business you can depreciate it.  I assume he depreciated it down to $0.  Then the capital gains is the sale price less the depreciated value.
Wood-Mizer LT15

Offline Southside

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Re: Should I sell my mill?
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2021, 11:36:14 AM »
Twenty Yoopers in a pontoon boat finshin' for Moby Dick.

smiley_guitarist  smiley_trap_drummer
Franklin buncher and skidder
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White Oak Meadows


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