I was getting a bar and chain for my new to me 044 and was asking the guy if those 12v chain grinders work. He told me to use the sharping stones with your cordless drill. He likes to dip the stone in oil, go high speed into the teeth. When the oil collects on the top of the tooth - that one is done. He claims to be able to get the chain as sharp as new. I know fallers are able to do that with a file - I can't :-[.
I'm charging my drill now to try it on an old chain ;D
Well let us know how the drill method works. I would still practice doing it by hand, I don't think you want to drag your cordless drill around with you all day...
I'm sure I don't hand sharpen like a pro does but after doing it many times I am happy with how much much better the chain cuts after I've given the chain a little touch up on every fill up.
Does anyone have a link to sharpening instructions? I use the file guide that clips onto the file and then use a depth gauge tool to file the rakers down. But for people who have never done it, it would be useful for them.
Ian
I have got a 240v bench chain sharpener (spinning disc). I only use it to sharpen the .404 harvester chains when they have been hit real bad and are too hard for a file. You have to be so delicate with the abrasive wheel or you can heat the tooth too much. I can always get a tooth sharper with a file and it can be done in a fraction of the time. As far as getting a tooth as sharp as new goes, I always find that a new chain is never as sharp as your first filing. I'll usually give a new chain a little touch up with a file to give it a razor edge.
When using a stone while the chain is on the bar it will leave little pieces of stone in the bar groove and nose sprocket which can't be good for the bar over time.
I'm a lazy person for sure.... I don't file at all. I keep several chains on hand and change them out which is faster than filing (for me).... I sharpen them all on the grinder when I get around to it. I'm not cutting wood full time though.
By hand using the $24 Grenberg (sp?) tool and a file I would get a chain much sharper then by grinder, but, the grinder is much faster for me so I no longer use a file. I just bring 4-6 chains of each size chain.
Quote from: treeboy on October 27, 2005, 12:14:28 PM
I was getting a bar and chain for my new to me 044 and was asking the guy if those 12v chain grinders work. He told me to use the sharping stones with your cordless drill.
The 12V grinders usually turn 10,000 rpm so the small diameter stones do a good job removing material. But a cordless drill will not be turning nearly as fast so you may have problems with material removal and loading up the stone. I use a 12V on my stump chains because of the large amount of damage when cutting out stump roots.
If you grind, do it in a vise. If you are forced to do it on a good bar, blow off the bar starting at the nose sprocket and work your way back to the mounting holes. Keep the grit out of the nose sprocket!
Hmmmm, doesn't quite work as well as the guy says. The right side sharpened quite nicely - but not faster than the file. The left side - I broke down and just used the file. The good news is I think I'm getting better at using the file!
If the grit from the stone is possibly a problem with the bar and nose sprocket, wouldn't the metal file bits be trouble too?
Those little "Dremel" type grinders are o.k. for a rocked chain ,but I prefer the file ,otherwise.A 20"chain,unless damaged,only takes a few minutes to touch up with a file.
Steel isn't good either but stone is much harder than the steel and will increase the wear factor.
I used to sharpen with a file. After 3 tank fulls, I would sit down and sharpen it - I would usually be ready for a break anyway by then... ;D
It seemed to work very well, and I sure like how sharp the chain was. Of course if I hit something, I would have an early break... :(
It takes me about 3 minutes to sharpen 72 links with a stone. About the same time or less with a file.
Providing I have hit anything and they just need toughing up.
I have never quite got the "hang" of hand filing. I could get a chain sharp enough to cut good but not as sharp as a new one. I have tried all types of guides, most with little sucess. i recently have been using a guide that I believe Husqvarna markets, it is a small piece of aluminum that stradles the chain and has two roller on each side. Only weighs a couple of ounces and fits in your pocket. By far the best guide I have ever used and has improved my sharpening skills. They come in different sizes depending on what type of chain your running, .325, 3/8, or .404. I think Baileys has these. I bought mine at commercial cutters direct at the Paul Bunyan show. Best 5 or 6 dollars I ever spent. ;)
I was not a great hand filer until I worked in front of a skidder for a winter. Now I usually hit a new chain before I start the saw. For me I am sure a sharpener would be slower than filing.
Will
It seems like I have tried every sharpening method sold. Boy has it been frustrating. I finally came up with system for field sharpening that works good for me.
I use the cordless drill with a stone for my rakers. For sharpening the chain I use a file and this nifty gadget called a Swedish Roller Guide. It keeps your file at the right depth and angle and only cost seven bucks or so. (I must have spent $75 on other gadgets that did not work for me.)
Here is a pic
Max
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12877/H410-0355.jpg)
I use the same as what you are calling a Swedish Roller, Husky sells them in sets with the right files for different sizes. They work very nice for for the price.
This subject of chain filing has been a topic of conversation on many of the forums.It's not rocket science but does require an aquired level of skill.The only way to get this level of expertise is by doing it.
Eventually everybody has their favorite method of filing ,which is the one that works best for you.
My method is one side at a time,usually free hand,but I use an Oregon guide periodically to maintain the angle.It just boils down to practice,no big secrets.
Al is correct. I'm as lazy as they come and I've figured out that pushing a file is a lot easier than pushing a dull chain through a bunch of logs. If one of my saws doesn't cut like a hot knife through butter, I stop and touch it up. By hand, with a round file. I know what a sharp chain is supposed to look like. If a chain is dull, I file off whatever doesn't look like a sharp chain. It is exactly that easy.
:)
I know a few people that really hate sharpening their chains so they go wayyyyy toooo lonnnnggg before trying to sharpen them. By this time, the tips of the teeth are so work hardened they are nearly as hard as the file. We've all experience that feel on the file when it's trying to break through that hard surface. If sharpened reguallarly they are much quicker and easier to file.
I've noticed a lot of the hand filing problems come from uneven filing between left hand and right hand teeth. To help train your motor skills, clamp the bar in a vise until you have the filing down to being repeatable. With the bar in a vise you can focus on filing technique verses filing while holding the saw still.
Kathy's brothers usually only sharpen 1/2 of the teeth, then they pass the saw to the other guy. One's a righty and the other is a south paw. Works well for them. :D
As a charter member of the lazy crowd I file. Couple members mentioned the Swedish roller guide...it is a great way to learn the proper method...much like training wheels on a bicycle.
I had a terrible time learning how to square file...clamped the bar in a vise as Gilman mentioned and used both hands on the file. Can't say I have square chain mastered but I can do a passable job with the file out in the woods now.
Like mentioned above, chain sharpening is an acquired skill, you just have to practice. The Stihl chain I currently use is laser-etched on the top plate to show the proper filing angle, and on the side to show the proper hook. The marks make it very easy to get the proper angle when you sharpen the chain.
I tried the square-ground chain a number of years ago. It cut very, very good, a little better than round-ground chain. Sharpening was a problem though, especially in the snow. The way I was shown to file the saw was to rest it against a log, with the bar pointed up and the rear handle on the ground. It got kind of cold kneeling on the ground in the snow or mud just to sharpen a chain, so I went back to the round-ground so I can file it on the tailgate or a stump.
I find chain sharpening to be a good way to express my laziness. I love to just sit, and file my chains, but then I can spend hours sharpening knife blades.
Spencer , I wonder if maybe the factory round ground profile that is not as easily sharpened the first time with a round file has missled you think that this is going to be difficult . The first sharpening is more difficult but once the profile is established it's much easier to file . It doesn't take much pressure or forward force to round file a chain . Scott
Hi Scott, I think my experience sharping chain is the same as sharping my axe, it takes awhile before you learn the right angle, pressure to exert ect. Until you get the results you want quickly it seems like a waste of time. I think using the stone and drill somehow helped me to figure out the file? Anyway I am now sold on the file - obviously one side is quicker but I do get some decent results now. Also using a new file helps, that could have been some of the trouble!
Here are chain sharpening instructions including how to file the depth
gauges [rakers] (Beginning on page 15)...
http://www.oregonchain.com/tech/ms_manual/ms_02.pdf
Square ground sharpening...
http://www.oregonchain.com/tech/ms_manual/ms_06.pdf
Entire maintenance manual here...
http://www.oregonchain.com/tech/manual_maint.htm
I always sharpen by hand and agree, the more you do it the better you get.
one thing about sharpening is to have the saw clamped down so it doesn't move.
When at home I clamp my chainsaw by the bar in a vice, makes it much easier.
For the field I bought a Stump Vice from Baileys (one of our sponsors!)
Item #15246 cost about $8. Definatley makes it easier to sharpen in the woods.
I was going to make something like this by welding a couple of spikes to the back of a C clamp.
But for that price, why bother!
Jon
I think you guys missed something with all this discussion about sharpening a chainsaw. I agree with just about everything everyones says including how much more work it is to cut with a dull chain. What I think was missed was how much safer a sharp chainsaw chain really is.
A sharp chain does not jump or bounce around as much so the saw does what it should do, grab wood fibers and sever them. Considering the fact about how logging is now the most dangerous job in America, and how many injuries are caused by a chainsaw, learning to know how to properly sharpen a chainsaw to me would be a requirement of safe operation.
Another factor is chainsaw longevity. If you run with a dull saw all the time, you are building up heat. Heat that radiates from the bar and into the crankcase of your saw. Soon it migrates into your crankshaft bearings and you just smoked your saw. I know that sounds outlandish, but heat builds up quicker than you think. Also with a two stroke engine, not a whole lot of oil is reaching those bottom crankshaft bearings. Enough under good operating conditions, but add a little heat and you are really shortening the life of the saw.
I wish I could explain how to sharpen a saw. I know when you buy a new chain and file it first so that it is sharp, you know you have the technique down. There is also a saying in the woodworking world, don't over spend for any sharpening system. Keep it simple and the inventors of this world will not be seperating you from your cash. Myself I am a minimalist. I use a simple chainsaw file and a flat file to do all my filing. I go light on the rakers and go hard on the saw teeth. I also file my saw every hour or so because the few minutes it takes to touch a saw up, is well worth it.
Someone also mentioned using a dull file. As a rule of thumb I use a new file with every new saw chain. I also use a thread cutting oil to make my file take more steel off easily and float away the filings. Then again, I am kind of fussy when it comes to my chainsaw. (see post on First Fight for more information)
When I first started using a chainsaw, I used a file guide until I got the hang of it.
Now I use one of those dremel type sharpeners for rock abused chains but I honestly feel like I get a better edge with a file. My saw seems to stay sharper longer with a file sharpened chain.
Quote from: Rocky_J on October 30, 2005, 10:49:24 AM
Al is correct. I'm as lazy as they come and I've figured out that pushing a file is a lot easier than pushing a dull chain through a bunch of logs. If one of my saws doesn't cut like a hot knife through butter, I stop and touch it up. By hand, with a round file. I know what a sharp chain is supposed to look like. If a chain is dull, I file off whatever doesn't look like a sharp chain. It is exactly that easy.
:)
Rocky,
I would tend to agree with your viewpoint. Here's why: When I was doing firewood, my partner owned every gadget possible for sharpening chains. He was ALWAYS in the rocks, too! At any rate, despite all his guides, Dremel stones, etc. his chain always looked like hell- various angles, tiny teeth, etc. I always used a 3/8" round file and "guesstimated" the correct angle, based on the original. When I was a faller, I sharpened whenever I fueled or took a break.
There are supposed to be some "trick" ways to sharpen a chain, but I have never stumbled upon something that worked better than OEM angles.
3584ELK , when reading someones "trick" to sharpening chain make sure you know the specific chain and conditions that they are talking about .
i aggree that the more you attempt to sharpen with a file the better you will get. it is a learned art. i try to teach everyone that will listen to me but some are adamant that it is easier to take their chains to someone else and have them ground. i use my chains until there is nothing left or nothing else left to put back together. always file by hand. not gonna say how long it took me to get the hang of it though.lol
not near as long as it took me to learn to sharpen a knife as akid. my dad done it for me until i was 10 or so, then he said you sharpen your own knife, after about three different knives i had that down pat. but in the mean time those knives looked like heck.
i touch up after every tank also.
I should be amazed but I'm not. I use Oregon 73LG chains, and they don't cut worth a crap when they're new. In fact, they cut superior the more they're filed.
Guess I'm puzzled when people say "it cuts as good as new".
New chains cut like crap. Even if you give the rakers a swipe. It usually takes 2 to 3 sharpenings to get it where it really cuts good.
Now that we all have them sort of sharp...
How do YOU tell if it is as sharp as possible?????
Thanks
! puzzles me you need to sharpen out of box chain to make it cut. this chisel bit or round chain?
if you throwing out hash brown looking shreds then chain sharp.
When my chain starts to cut like it did when it was new, I usually will take a break and sharpen it. ;) I'm one of dem old fashioned hand sharpeners.
I used to like to tease new employees when they were learning to file. I'd ask them when they were done if they just filed da chain, or sharpened it. :D
Quote from: Woodhog on November 12, 2005, 08:30:53 AM
Now that we all have them sort of sharp...
How do YOU tell if it is as sharp as possible?????
Thanks
Woodhog , you can look at the sharpened edge in the sunlight and if i disappears it's sharp enough . If you don't have sunlight then a loupe and will work .
Quote from: Woodhog on November 12, 2005, 08:30:53 AM
Now that we all have them sort of sharp...
How do YOU tell if it is as sharp as possible?????
Thanks
Ya gotta know what a sharp edge looks like. Have you ever sharpened a pocketknife, or any sharp tool? A sharp edge is a sharp edge. If you don't know what a sharp edge looks like, then you gotta learn that first. Look at a single edge razor blade (box cutter blade). Notice that you can barely see the cutting edge because it's so sharp. You can see one side or the other, but not the edge itself.
Now look at your dull chainsaw chain. See the dull edge? File it until you can't see that leading edge any more. When it looks like a razor blade and not like the edge of a spoon, then it's sharp.
I use a 10X magnifying lens to look at the chain tooth. The 'sharp edge' shows real well, and it's also good or identifying wood, as well as looking for splinters and steel filings poking the skin too. :)
Oh no ,guys...take it to metallurgist & have it x-rayed.
floyd :D What would x-ray show? I don't want to see the outline of a steel tooth. :) (and I doubt a metalurgist uses an x-ray for much, as the density of metal doesn't let x-rays through). :)
I use the lens because:
* I have it
* I don't have good close-up vision anymore
* I don't get good enough focus with my reading glasses
* I get a great look at the surface and edge I am filing
* I like it that way
:) :) :) :) :)
engine builders use x-rays and sonic testing to look for cracks :)
as long as I have big chips flying, I'm happy, but then again, i'm in the dirt so much, i'm happy that my chain will cut anything!
It was a joke. see post of mine above it.
Yrs ago I did timber inventory for USFS. Boss form supervisor's office said we had some regional office desk jockies coming out to "observe". Boss was from AR. He says "let's take these boys on a hike" .
So we walked bout 3 mi in to 1st plot. Spent 2 hr discussing whether tree that was borderline with prism was "in" or "out". We never made it past this plot cause they talked it to death.
This gonna go over like lead balloon, but this discussion reminds me of that.
Quote from: beenthere on November 12, 2005, 12:22:36 PM
I use a 10X magnifying lens to look at the chain tooth. The 'sharp edge' shows real well, and it's also good or identifying wood, as well as looking for splinters and steel filings poking the skin too. :)
Great idea, beenthere - I forgot all about that! When I was out in the field I would use my lens to see what I was doing to my axe or knife. Worked great!! Yes also good for finding Devils club where ever too.
Spencer
Quote from: treeboy on November 13, 2005, 11:14:09 PM
Yes also good for finding Devils club where ever too.
Spencer
Sorry for the double post Trigger finger a little itchy. I am not a fan of your Devil's Club either. Nasty stuff and you have lots of it :(. I give the chain a a squint and then try it. If I get a smooth cut and nice curly chips I'm happy.
This place makes for good reading on a sleepless night.
Best way I learned to sharpen was to draw lines on vice jaws using magic marker and trisquare for proper angle. I use both hands on file, and glance at marks to stay true.
In the field I put saw on tail gate and rest nose of bar against plastic bed liner.
Never tryed any gadget, but the roller guide sounds interesting.
Since noting how much the saw shop ground away, I stopped taking them there long ago and just learned.
Be interesting to read of "altered angles" here, though I am not saw smart enough to type about that.
That 'Swedish Roller' has been good for me, it's almost foolproof. It also sounds a little dirty. :) :D
Quote from: rusted on November 22, 2005, 08:52:06 PM
That 'Swedish Roller' has been good for me, it's almost foolproof. It also sounds a little dirty. :) :D
I am not touching that line ;D
anybody run the bar into a cull tree vertically and use the slot to hold the saw while filing? thats the way ive been sharpening chains in the woods for years. takes a litte practice to get the hole just right so you can rotate the chain while still holding the saw upright. usually done on pole size culls.