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Poll: Back to the moon

Started by Ron Wenrich, January 14, 2007, 08:35:00 PM

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Ron Wenrich

Poll expires 1/29/07

NASA plans to have us back on the moon by 2018.  What do you think?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

DanG

WHAT?  Is NASA not a Government agency anymore?  They're actually talking about doing something that make's sense?  I've been trying to figger out why we have a space station just floating around out there when we landed on the Moon almost 40 years ago.  We could have just put it there to start with, and added onto it as time and circumstances permitted.  We coulda had a Starbucks up there by now!
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Radar67

I don't think they should waste the money. We have more important things in the nation that need to be addressed. ie education, jobs, and many other things. That money could be better spent taking care of where we already live. MHO

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Mooseherder

Trekking back to the Moon must come with a hefty price tag just to kick up a little dust and maybe collect a couple pounds of moon rock. ::)
If it's someone's idea to develop the place to have humans living and working there IMO we would be looking back at Earth wishing we were back on Green ground with Trees around ya. Hopefully new technologies will be harvested to help mankind with their preparations for the Trek because we are all gonna pay for it anyway. :D
It wasn't on the last ballot I voted on. ;)

DWM II

Whats the reason for going? is there something to test that cant be tested on the current space station? Will this be a joint venture with other countries or will we the tax payers bare the brunt. I would prefer to spend pur tax dollars providing our troops abroad the personal armor and silly string they are begging for. I realize that new break throughs are around the corner but can our economy with stand sending billions to the moon as well as to Iraq, Afganistan and who knows where next? I'm not saying we should never go back or that we should never build a space station there as well, but I do belive we should take care of our current responsibilites here on planaterea. :-\ JMHO
Stewardship Counts!

Furby

The moon is a needed jumping off point for futher points of travel.
Yes we should go back, should have gone a long time ago.
I'm first in line Jeff so ya gotta wait your turn! ;)

DanG

Y'all need to consider one thing.  Money don't really exist.  The only thing that keeps the economy going is the circulation of the numbers that represent what we call money.  The space program is the cornerstone of many large industries.  If we just let it die, there will be many thousands of people without jobs.  But, if we keep it going, and moving forward, there are jobs that pay real wages, thereby there are tax dollars going to the Government.  All of these people with the good jobs will be buying goods and services, which also generates tax dollars.  The actual expenditure of resources to build a moon rocket is miniscule, relative to the benefits to the overall economy.  Just look at all the technological breakthroughs that came from the original space program!  Just think, if it were not for the space program, your spouse couldn't call you anywhere and anytime she pleased.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Ianab

I voted yes.

Will it cost a lot of money? Yup.

But remember that money just goes straight back into the economy and gets spread out though all the contractors and workers involved in the project. So in a way it's an injection into the American hitech industries. Not spending the money may just mean more layoffs and less money for everyone downstream?

There are far less productive things that it could be spent on  ::)

And if America doesn't do it, Richard Branson will be there next  :D

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Furby

He's closer then most folks think. :-\

Cedarman

With the right marketing it will be a great way to get more kids interested in science and math.  The results of the last go round is still being felt with all the advances we have made in science and technology. IMHO money plays little part in whether kids get a good education or not. It mostly has to do with the attitude in the home.
Talk about creating jobs, this will do it big time. I would much rather see my tax money head in that direction than in where we spend it now.  The war in Iraq will wind down sooner or later. Our war on terror will keep going, but the things we learn from science will do a lot to combat that.
I voted a big yes.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

beenthere

In favor
It will mean jobs for those who want jobs.

(but I ain't goin  :) )
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

I think it's a great thing with all the science and research that goes along with it and the jobs all the way down the line. However, I ain't interested in going up there myself and if things get so bad down here in my life time, and they think I'm leaving, they're in for a surprise.  I'm staying down here on good Ole earth. They probably won't miss me. ;D :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DanG

You'd be a really old man before they need a Forester up there anyway, Swampdonkey! :o
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

snowman

This space junks been a sore spot with me for many years. I hear all the arguments for it, jobs, new technology spinoffs that benefit us all but I'm not impressed. Imagine if we put the money, time and minds into stuff that directly benefited us, like say umm, oil shale technology, engines that got 100mpg, solar power,anything and everything to make us not dependent on the mideast , venezuela and everyone else who hates us and our way of life.I'm ok with sending puters into space, but manned space flight has a rediculous cost benefit ratio. I'd love to see those arabs back living in tents, riding camels and cutting eachothers heads off instead of ours.Thats where they would be if not for our oil dependency. Besides, theres no trees on the moon, who cares?  ;D

Ron Wenrich

Going to the moon isn't a consumer dependent industry.  Oil shale, engine efficiency and alternative energy is dependent on consumers.  So far, the oil industry wins and the alternatives lose, just on economics.  Oil has to get a lot more expensive to make the others work.

There is also some competition on getting to the moon.  China is now in the race, and speculation is that the next man to walk on the moon may be speaking Mandarin.  In that case, they have the money (ours from exports) and they will develop the science and math.  They could buy it if they wanted to. 

Losing out to the Chinese would further cripple our technological edge.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

TexasTimbers

One of the best, if not THE best (and someone may have mentioned this) benefits of going to the moon that most people use every single day in all facets of life and 99.9% of our society doesn not realize it, is the spinoff technology that results from moon shots and space exploration.
Even those of us who are aware of a multitude of this spinoff technology can't possibly know the full extent.

However, this time when they go, I think it ought to be imperative that in order to make up for the technology we have given away to our enemies (those who would do us harm when they get the chance) we should prioritize the harvesting of all the cheese up there to at least corner that market. If that moon cheese is as good as they say, maybe we could export that stuff to shift the balance of power that the Indians, Chinese, and Upper Voltans are amassing.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Fla._Deadheader


  I think the cargo hold on the shuttle could hold LOTS of illegal aliens. Let them start building the living quarters on the moon.  8) 8)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Tom

To heck with economy.  I just want to do it.    It falls in that catagory of looking around the corner of the house to see what made that noise.   It's that sawmill I didn't have to have as long as I stayed in a Corporate America cubicle.  It's sticking my chest out and thumbing the rest of the world and saying "I beat you".  It's another step in seeing what's out there.  It's a chance to get a lot of questions answered.   One day we'll figure this whole mess out and know where we came from .

We could spend all of our resources penny pinching the products available on Mother Earth and be right here 10,000 years from now without any products to pinch.  Making a 100mpg auto is great, we should do it, but, not at the expense of exploration.  If we do, we will end up with a 100mpg auto and nothing to put in it.   That might happen anyway.  We might find sources of energy "out there" or getting out there that will relieve us of the anxiety.

To not go is like canceling the superbowl because new towers need to be built in N.Y.  Or, canceling The baseball season because we don't know who would win the games anyway.

There's some things we need to do just for the fun and the challenge.  Heck yes!   Let's do it!

flip

errrrr.   I don't know if you folks know it or not but we've never been to the moon ::)  didn't you see the show where they debunked the moon shot? :-X  If we do attempt it (for real this time) it would be an incredible waste of money and manpower. IMHO ;)
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

beenthere

Flip
Where does that money go that you say is 'wasted' ?  I'm thinkin it goes into the economy, and gets circulated around to business's and contractors, and then to their employees who spend it on food, housing, new products, and on and on and around it goes.......

Today's computers, might be a good example of designing for a space need and it might just have been to pack a lotta memory in a small chip (space), fer example.

The biggest waste of money is to hire people in the Gov't (been doin that just to lower unemployment) who are not productive. Or to give money to the person sitting on the street corner who remains unproductive. The list goes on (in my way of thinkin anyway).

I think, spend it on science that breeds knowledge and makes it even more possible to come up with break-throughs that might cure cancer, find a new, cheap fuel, and that list can go on and on.......Just the competition to get there again and again, will make new inventions happen.

Saw a program on TV last night about an apparently happy tribe of people living along the Amazon river. They too, can do without the moon program (they kinda did have one of their own  :) ) and continue to wait for the pack of monkey's to migrate back through their camp so they can eat some meat again. In the meantime, they get along with the manioc that they grow and process into a flour for subsistence.  Not me. Lets shoot for the moon.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Michigan Mike

I am in favor of it. Kinda like Tom just because I want to see whats around the corner. Also because it is somthing of an insurance policy for the human race. If we get established in space and the other planets and asteroids we as a race may continue on even if some crazy on earth makes a nuclear winter or a large meteor sends us back to the stone age.

TexasTimbers

Yeah i know flip. And also there is no God. We all just suddenly appeared from a pool of slime that, also came out of nothing. ;)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

TexasTimbers

MM that's a good thought but as the Earth goes, so goes the moon. We are gravitationally connected in a way that if the earth ever gets impacted by an asteroid it would also sling the moon into ....... hey I wonder what Ralph Cramnden would think about this. If we al lived on the moon where would he send Alice?
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: flip on January 15, 2007, 01:12:15 PM
errrrr.   I don't know if you folks know it or not but we've never been to the moon ::)  didn't you see the show where they debunked the moon shot? :-X  If we do attempt it (for real this time) it would be an incredible waste of money and manpower. IMHO ;)

Flip, I know we got to the moon because there were some very talented Canadian Engineers involved in making it happen. In fact a lot of them were involved in making the world's first Mach 2 interceptor with with fly-by-wire control system.

Jim Chamberland

  • Head Engineer for project Mercury
  • Project manager for Gemini (he designed it in fact)
  • Had a key role in NASA's descision to use lunar orbit rendezvous
  • Became technical advisor to Manned Spacecraft Centre director Bob Gilruth
  • troubleshooter on Apollo
  • Worked on concepts for the space shuttle

Richard Carley

  • Had a leading role in developing the guidance system and navigation systems in Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and the shuttle

Stanley Cohn was a computer expert at NASA, returned to Canada to work at IBM and U of T.

R. Byran Erb became manager of the Lunar Receiving Division, then went on to NASA's remote sensing program and later became Chief of the Earth Observation Division. His wife Dona was a computer programmer and manager with Lockhead working on the Shuttle and retired after being Lead Scientist for Mitre Corp.

And the list goes on...

[Source: "Arrows to the Moon: Avro's Engineers and the Space Race"] Good book I might add. ;D

Canadian engineers wouldn't lie would they? ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tcsmpsi

I voted "don't know" because there wasn't a "don't care" or "doesn't matter".  I ain't going. 

From what I can tell, it is void of trees.

Often, I think of the world to reflect the fortune of the possibility of some big jolt causing all electrical device to cease function.  So, the want of technology is not upon me.

It is not for me to say what others should/should not do.  The government is going to do as it pleases with its protection money. 

My Heart finds no acclamation toward humans on the moon, one way or the other.

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Jeff

My sincere apologies to our at least one "Arab" member to the forum and the others that come from that decent.  Most forum members know enough not to defame other members with blanket statements that are mean spirited and hurtful. You probably won't get an apology from them but you certainly will from me.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

flip

WOW.  Do some have spurs under their saddles?  IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

A waste of money is no joke though.  If NASA came to your door and asked for a hundred dollars because they want to go to the moon what would you do?  If they need a bigger budget it comes out of your and my pocket, no thanks.  I would rather see a couple billion dollars put into infrastructure, a fence on the border, more scholarships, better health care or something we can use NOW.  Show me oil on the moon and I'll give it my stamp of approval ::)

Lighten up kids.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Jeff

Flpp my comments were not towards you, although I am sure you know that. Everyone has an opinion.  :)  I was pretty sure your comment was sarcasm. 

Did you know that there is not only a T.V. program debunking the landing, but a T.V. program debunking the debunking show? :D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Mooseherder

Then we gotta ask ourselves......selves...., are we really better off with all this technology? :D  Most, probably. The hardest working folks won't be on that flight outta here when it blows. ;D Maybe a politician or scientist along with some frozen embryo testubes packed away to save some room. :D

SwampDonkey

Flip, I know it sounded like I was pick'n on ya. But, I was just using the opportunity to share some information. I don't get too excited. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Kcwoodbutcher

I don't think NASA has any great expectations of finding new exciting things on the moon. This is an exersize or a stepping stone to bigger better things. Even though it is costly, it is still much cheaper than Mars or some other planetary moon. We will learn many things on the moon which will be required when we explore further. Man by nature is an explorer. Things would not have progressed as they have in the last 4000 years or so if he was not. There are still many places on earth that can be explored ( any of the oceans come to mind ), but we were never one to limit ourselves. This is just the beginning, our generation or the next several may not reap the real benefits of this endevor, but it has to start somewhere. If we wait for the time to be "right" it will never happen, there is always something at home that needs care.  Of all the money our government waste, this is waste well spent.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

Ianab

Had another thought while I was working in the shed...

I bet they said Christopha Colombus was wasting money when he went looking for a shortcut to India. OK he didn't find what he was looking for, but it worked out OK in the end  :D

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

maplewoman

I have been led to believe by reliable, unamed, sources that every time a space craft goes thru the delicate layers of the atmosphere it is putting a big whole in it. This is what causes the so called wholes in the ozone layer. Such a delicate balance of chemicals, what do you think would happen to them when a massive space rocket roars thru. The gasses dissapate and never reform, Which increases global warming! By the time they build a liveable station on the moon the ozone will be so distorted and depleated we will all be forced to move there anyway, totally due to our lack of care for the planet we have right here. Just think what damage we could all do up there! Everything has cause and effect. It is this sort of greed that kills millions of people, are you really all for killing this beautiful planet and it's inhabitants in the attempt to be the first to live on the moon. Pretty selfish if you ask me. I would rather live on earth any day. Give me trees and flowers over moon rocks and sweaty space suits always. But as usual, big business will ruthlessly push for such mindless endevours, at all costs. God help us all! :'(

Jeff

I never thought of it that way. Hmmmm.


I still want to go. :)  I'll make one big hole goin through that they can keep aiming for in the future. There ya go, thanks to me one more hole and thats it. No more new holes. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

snowman

 My sincere apologies to any and all Arab loggers out there I may have offended, I honestly didn't know there was such a thing and am still suspicious but Ill take Jeffs word for it. Anyway, thrust of my point was and is, those that would destroy us, Alquiada, Iran thats working on nukes, Venezuala, who's president is insane , etc etc etc, depend on our use of oil to finance their agenda. In a war, the first thing you do is cut off commerece with your enemy and yes, we are at war.( I thought i was doing so good not saying raghead,ya can't take me anywhere) :D

tcsmpsi

I believe you're off base there, snowman.

There are many ethnic representations within this forum, and doubting one of the administrators reflection of one has no basis of sincerity.

There are many avenues which welcome ethnic bashing for its own sake.  I do not believe the Forestry Forum to be one of them.

I've been known to wear a rag on my head, from time to time.

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

snowman

tcs, liten up, i was making fun of myself.People are so sensetive, so uptight, so PC these days, sheeesh. Lifes to short, don't take it so serious.Oh and by the way, when i say Arab loggers, i mean loggers in the mideast. In the desert. Far as i'm concerned, once your a US citizen, your an American.

Jeff

Snowman I dont make a point of singling out remarks unless I really thought it was needed. If someone made a derogatory remark generalizing our member in Idaho, I would step in and say something as well.  ;) :) Some of us just got together to help send a cant hook to our member that does chainsaw milling in Qatar. I'd like to use this as an example of how we form opinions on subjects when we might be missing much of the information. As an example the topic at hand, we dont just go to the moon and play golf and pick up rocks and spend tax payer money without benefit.

Apollo's Small Steps Are Giant Leap for Technology

   06.21.04

While Tang and Teflon didn't come from NASA, the Agency has developed many items we use every day without ever realizing their fascinating origins. The lunar era helped to create products most of us would be surprised NASA had anything to do with and that we probably wouldn't like living without. These items protect us, increase performance and make work easier.

Working in the hostile, airless environment of space, Apollo astronauts needed equipment for doing a tough job under unforgiving circumstances. Like working in space, firefighting also requires specialized equipment to keep fire crews safe.


Before 1971 the average weight of a firefighter's breathing system was more than 30 pounds. With that amount of weight on their backs, firefighters were battling their equipment along with the flames. Frequently, the added weight was so taxing that some opted to attack the flames without their breathing systems.

That all changed when engineers at NASA's Johnson Space Center began a program at the request of the nation's fire chiefs to adapt spacesuit life-support systems for use by firefighters. Four years later, the engineers had a design that weighed one-third less and offered a greatly improved fit and better visibility than the previous system. Fire departments across the country were quick to adopt the new system, enhancing the safety of the dangerous job.

Since the Apollo era, millions of people worldwide have literally been walking in the shoes of the astronauts. Thanks to clever spacesuit design, athletic shoes took a major leap forward in quality by incorporating manufacturing and design processes used in NASA's suit construction.

NASA changed athletic shoe construction quite truly where the rubber meets the road. A process known as "blow rubber molding" used in producing helmets was applied to create hollow athletic shoe soles designed to be filled with shock-absorbing materials. Following the establishment of this new molding process, a former NASA engineer named Frank Rudy pitched an idea for a suitable shock absorber to the Nike Corporation. Rudy's concept used a pad made of interconnected air cells placed under the heel and forefoot to cushion the blow. Sound familiar? With Rudy's pitch, Nike Air was born.

Thanks to the Moon missions, Black & Decker was able to pair cordless electricity with elbow grease and make the job of building America easier than ever. While on the Moon, astronauts were tasked with gathering soil and rock samples for analysis back on Earth. To help them, NASA asked Black & Decker to build a special drill for boring into lunar rock. The drill had to be small, lightweight and, most importantly, battery powered. Black & Decker's new drill proved to be a fantastic success and spawned the development of cordless tools for the medical, manufacturing, building and home consumer industries.

Beyond the advancements in science and space flight, the Apollo Moon missions blew open the door for new and practical inventions that revolutionized how we live, work and play. With one small step, American technology took a giant leap forward and changed our everyday lives.

Charlie Plain
NASA's John F. Kennedy Space Center
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

tcsmpsi

Quote from: snowman on January 16, 2007, 08:16:17 AM
tcs, liten up,

Well, I did.  Just returned from the privey. 

Last night was the end  :-[ of a 3 day run of one of my favoritist foods.  Beans with pataters and venison in them, with big, major chunks of cornbread on the side.

I'm nearly devastated.  All these years and I was thinking Tang to be the highlight manned space travel. 

Que lastima.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

snowman

I feel this has turned political, I feel partially to blame :D Anyway , logging in quatar? Ive learned something here today. I enjoy this forum,learn alot and usually post something as I sit here swilling coffee waiting for sun to come up.Speaking of which, suns up, kinda. I need to change oil in my tractor this morning before i get to work so Im off and will comment no more on space or arab loggers :)

Jeff

Thanks for that post Snowman.   :)   Yea, there really is. Check out some of the posts by member alsayyed


Here is the thread where he first needed the cant hook.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=22569.0
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

I guess I should shut up but I feel strongly about this.  :)  I do believe that if we had not been to the moon there would not be a Forestry Forum. Not because of some Nasa Technology developed, but because those times and events had such a profound effect on who I am.   I have a picture here somewhere of me on my eighth birthday. I am sitting on the floor playing with my Major Matt Mason toys that I got for my birthday. I am sitting there on the date of my birth watching Neil Armstrong take the first steps onto the surface of the moon.  Since then I have been entranced by the topic. I follow the shuttles, If there is a tv show on about the subject I watch it. I have a short cut on my desktop to the Nasa tracking website. Its one of the first websites I visited the very first day we got "on-line"

Anyhow, I think life experiences lead you to the things you do. If those experiences were different, then the things you do will be different. Sure, I could say the same thing about being a preachers son. If I had not been, there probably would be no Forestry Forum as well, but for me, these are two of the many things I can point at that says, Hey! This is who I am and why. So yea, Because of landing a man on the moon there is a Forestry Forum.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

scsmith42

I was out on vacation when Alsayyed's cant hook was purchased, and somehow I missed that string.  What a great string and fantastic message about doing what's right.

Discrimination based upon race, sex, religious preferences, etc, is probably one of the most demeaning aspects of human behavior.  Both the person discriminating against, as well as the person on the receiving end are demeaned.  People should be treated based upon their abilities, behavior and actions, not their appearances or ethnicities.

I have found that one key ingrediant to winning the battle against discrimination is to focus our efforts on similarities between people - not differences.  And on this forum we all have many similar interests.

All should be welcome based upon those interests.  Although the bulk of FF members are US based, every time that I see a new member join or post from a different country around the world, I am glad, because this gives all of us one more opportunity to share experiences, help one another and build friendships based upon our similar interests - thus bridging the gap between nationalities, religions, etc and helping to build a better world community.

Jeff - thanks for posting the link about Alsayyed's cant hook.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

beenthere

Another effect of the NASA program was the result of thousands of patents covering the many 'inventions' that came with the new developments specific to the space program. However, there were patent laws that stymied application of these patents, because exclusive rights could not be purchased from NASA.

The end result was change in the governing laws to allow a business venture to have 7 (?) years exclusive rights to a patent to develop and market the invention. This permitted many inventions to find the marketplace. Otherwise, the invention would just collect dust. I'm sure that is where many good ideas are still tied up, in someone's patent that will never get applied due to development costs and legal tangles.
(we can and do shoot ourselves in the foot at times  :) ). 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

Me too Jeff. I even toured the Cape facilities in 1984. We had a satellite receiver (C-Band) about the same time installed and I would check out the NASA station now and again.  I like all them science programs about space. Some of the theory and conjecture seems to be far fetched, but you just wait a lot of that stuff will be realized. ;D  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cedarman

I know first hand the thrill of being the first human being to see something new on earth. Although in the scheme of things it is small, for those of us participating in these adventures it is huge. And that is cave exploring. On one occasion we spent 19 trips boring a hole through breakdown to get into new cave. I won't go into details but it was somewhat dangerous.  The hole we made was only crawlable and some of it was belly  crawl,meaning only about a foot high and 2 feet wide. The tunnel was about 150 feet long.  We broke out into over a mile of 10' high walking stream passages that went on for over a mile.  We knew we were the first humans ever to walk this passage.

This is another reason we go to moon and beyond. The thrill of exploration transcends the danger involved.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

estiers

i voted no.  Simply because we have been there already.  Maybe you like to go back to the same vacation spot year after year, but let's explore new territory!  Mars anyone??
Erin Stiers
State Plant Health Director - Minnesota
United States Department of Agriculture

Jeff

Mars is one of the reasons we are going back to the moon.  :)  Found on the nasa site.

"With so much of space left to explore, why bother going back to the moon? For one, to answer a crucial question: Is there water? The 1998 to '99 flight of NASA's Lunar Prospector detected large concentrations of hydrogen at the moon's poles, a strong clue that there may be considerable deposits of ice. If so, the discovery would revolutionize the economics of lunar exploration overnight. Because water can be broken down into hydrogen and oxygen, it provides both fuel and breathable air; a local supply would save the high cost (up to $20,000 per kilogram) of shipping water on a spacecraft. Suddenly, the moon would change from a barren place to plant flags and leave footprints into a potential space colony - and a jumping-off point for exploration of Mars and beyond."
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Norm

I usually keep up with the goings on here but missed the cant hook thread completely, you guys make me proud to hang out here.

SPIKER

I had to vote Yes to going back.  as just a couple posts up it is a stepping stone to mars.  the probes are great going over mars now and more on the way.   they really don't do US much good other than to get better information right now, but in 40 years we will probably have this poll up and only difference will be MARS as the landing point.   then there is EUROPA? (Spelling?)  Jupiters moon.  probably not in our grand kids lifetime, unless warp drive and or some other sort of propulsion is designed.   I'm sure once we get more space established we will be able to find better ways of moving through space. (I believe very shortly there is going to be a SPACE SAIL test launch to see if the sun can push the space ship effectively.) 

I do believe that we need to spend our money over HERE, and stop buying made in china every things.  get our technology and manufacturing plants back to work making rockets space trucks ect.

people thing we need a 100 MPG car, truth is that would be a moped.  not a CAR, engine tech can't do it period...   there is no 100 MPG carb invented the power in gas simply is not there period.  it is a simple fact that it takes XXX amounts of energy to move XXX lbs XXX miles.   granted we need to push these 20 mpg new trucks/cars off the assembly line, start building 35~50 mpg 3~4 cyc diesel powered mini cars...   with the tech we now have this is an easy task, heck ya can buy cars/trucks in Europe now that do this.  it is the US buiers and Manufactures who are not building what the planet NEEDS.   PEOPLE need to move back and forth as efficiently as possible.  Hydrogen cars would be great but for now the tech is here that needs to be taken advantage of to use as little fuel as possible to prolong the reserve as well as prevent further pollution.   Granted going to space will use some fuel it won't be nearly a drop in the bucket that is being wasted every day right now.

as for NASA: they have helped the environment a LOT just by cleaning up JET engines making them better cleaner more fuel efficient.   

as for poking holes into the space bubble!?  nope it don't work that way.   not gonna pop our Ozone balloon .   gravity is what hold every thing stuck to the earth, other wise those poor Australians would have to be holding onto the roots to keep from falling off :D

pretty much everything has mass and mass is effected by gravity.  bigger the mass the more gravity.   only reason earth doesn't fall into the sun or hurl into outer space is because gravity...   while physics was my favorite class and I got all A's I still would never figure out some of this stuff that those engineers are working on now, sub-atomic partials, studying quarks, sprites ect.  those things don't lend themselves to normal physics and understanding the science behind this stuff is what will help us, so I say "TO THE MOON ALICE"

Mark M
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Patty

I would love to see us put a man on Mars, Venus, Jupiter, and even Saturn. Imagine the possibilities! As soon as we can quit piddling around with the antique shuttle program, and the disfunctional space station things will progress. Personally I think if we would commercialize space exploration, and folks could profit from it, I think the progress would be amazing. Until then, as long as we have to depend on the government and all the politicians, it will continue at a snail's pace.  I say have the government step aside, and let the games begin!  8)
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

submarinesailor

I voted yes, because I would like to see the new technology that could come out of the program.  We went to the moon using 1960's computers, some say the semiconductor, or was it the integrated circuit, was invented for NASA.  Can you just imagine how far we could push some of this newer technology?

Bruce

DWM II

I'm with you Norm, pretty neat how folks just help out. This is a very neat place to hang out and learn as well grow as folks. :)
Stewardship Counts!

mike_van

I didn't vote - I read this whole thread and still can't - I'm old enough to remember Sputnik being launched - When  we landed on the moon, I was in the Air Force - I'm one of those "kids of the 50's" - I believed every sci-fi movie I ever saw, but today, I just don't know. Until we have some faster mode of space flight - warp speed, whatever, it seems pointless. I  think one of the Voyagers took 12 years to get to Saturn? It's just too long.  We need a faster rocket -  I see a lot of things here that money could be spent on, old toxic dumps, schools that need help, there's never enough money for those. Some around here have "pay to play" sports now, it costs each kids parents 450.00 to play a school sport. Not enough funds. I know a lot of good things came out of NASA, but the price tags seem terrible. My daughters robotics team is trying to raise 6000.00 for the 1st Robotics Compitition in Atlanta, whats that? One tile on the space shuttle?  I'm a little lost in the 50's I guess -
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Tom

A model T was good for about 45 MPH but the roads wouldn't allow that much speed.  Now the cars will go over a hundred and we have a lot of roads that would stand it.  We wouldn't have either if the model T hadn't mushed along in the mud.

DanG

I still maintain that, all other considerations aside, it would be great for the economy.  It would create many, many high paying jobs, and those people would be paying taxes.  They would also be buying stuff, and that would generate even more tax dollars.  It would not only help the Federal coffers, but the States and local governments would realize more income, too.  Money is nothing if it doesn't circulate.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

SwampDonkey

I agree Dang, but trouble is some states will be left behind and some prosper. It's the way of the world.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bill Johnson

We should go, we had the "One small step for man" lets get the "One giant leap for mankind". I remember when the first lunar landing occurred, I just happened to be on a trip organized by our high school at the time of the landing we were in Russia.  I still remember the in-tourist guide getting on the bus that morning telling all us Canadian students how proud mother Russia was of our cosmonauts. ;D 

She seemed a little disappointed when someone pointed out we were from Canada. :D

Having said that lets go, yes its terribly expensive, but the returns could easily outweigh the costs.
Bill

leweee

Log Earth first ....the other planets latter. :D
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

maplewoman

Did no one hear me? space crafts tear holes in the ozone layer :'( Causing catastrophic effects on the earths delicate atmosphere. Like the dog with the bone who saw his reflection in the water, the water magnified the size of the bone so the dog tried to get the bigger bone in the waters reflection, loosing his real bone. Would you all be willing to risk this planet for a mere vacation/self gratification. Shame Shame Shame :o

Tom

I don't believe that hole in ceiling from the rocket ships, junk.

SwampDonkey

When you drive your car down the road, is there a permanent hole in the air. I really don't think gases or particles within the influence of earth are static. They move from a high concentration to a low. That so called hole gets healed over from it's surroundings like water would flow around the bow surfaces of a sub as it speeds along.

For some reason you've decided to go on an environmental stint in your most recent posts. Maybe your looking for attention, who knows. You'll probably not get much fan fare. But, I'll just leave it at that.

Have a good evening.  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jeff

Quote from: maplewoman on January 18, 2007, 08:16:35 PM
Did no one hear me? space crafts tear holes in the ozone layer :'(

Your seriously misinformed.  Thats like saying if enough planes fly through a cloud it will look like swiss cheese, or if you jump in the lake that you will make a hole and if someone jumps in after you in the same spot they will hit the lake bottom, that if a car drives first into the fog, that every car behind it has a clear tunnel.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Furby

Maplewoman, do you know how the ozone in the stratosphere, also known as the ozone layer, is formed?

estiers

I think that maplewoman has a point.  The ozone will be AFFECTED by the shuttle going through it, just like the cloud is affected when the plane goes through it.  If enough planes go through a single cloud the cloud will disseminate....  I think that even though the shuttles will affect the ozone layer, that little amount of traffic make the point moot.  Now when the time come for regular space travel, we may need to reopen the discussion.
Erin Stiers
State Plant Health Director - Minnesota
United States Department of Agriculture

Patty

I am guessing we should all move back into caves where we won't do any more "harm".  Except maybe the bats will be mad.  ::)

Fly me to the moon!
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

OneWithWood

I am glad we went to the moon and I have no problem with the space program.  The benefits everyone have described are real and tangible.  Consider this for a moment:  The same benefits would accrue if we turned all that exploration inward and made a serious attempt to inhabit the oceans.  sail_smiley  ( t really wanted a scuba smiley)
In addition to all the aforementioned bennies we would gain a much better understanding of this planet and may even be able to mend some of the damage done.  Not to mention that if we don't do something soon about the population we are going to run out of real estate  ;)
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Tom

You're right OWW.

I've always been interested in what is down there.  It might not have the intrigue of the infinity of outerspace but is full of questions that have never been answered.   

There is a lot of available power there too.   I remember one effort to put big generators in the Gulf Stream.  Even their maintenance would have been minor because of the lack of light to grow barnacles and algae.  Some folks jumped on it with arguments like "The turbines will kill fish", much like they jumped on windmills with "the blades will kill birds", and the project went to the wayside.  If folks are quick to jump on "Blue Sky" projects, they can kill them before they ever get off of the ground.

I'll bet that a highway to Europe could be handy too.  Can't you imagine  it runing along the ocean floor with places where you could pull over and see the sights through a big window and lit ocean floor?  School students could see the great ocean rift in person.  Hotels and motels along the way to make the trip easier.  It might even be electric and you just hook your car to a hook and program it to start and stop when you want.

The wrecks could all be found and historically appraised.  The species of the deep could be studied.  I think it would be fun to go to the bottom of the Marianas Trench and be able to sight-see.

I wonder if you drilled a well at the bottom of the ocean would you hit fresh water?

Yep, that would be a worthwhile venture.  I'd vote for it.  :)

We might even find seaweeds that taste as good as turnip greens with a little fatback and diced roots thrown in.  :D :D

DWM II

Now were talking!! 8). I think there's a better chance for me to see the bottom of the ocean than mars.
Stewardship Counts!

tcsmpsi

I like caves.  A lot.   ;D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Tom

I've always wondered, If you are spelunking, are you tresspassing? :D

SwampDonkey

The Nova Scotia government is in the initial phase of constructing a hydro generating farm in the Bay Of Fundy. The initial phase is experimental/developmental of the technology and they have set a goal of 1 megawatt output. This is the first step toward a large farm of generators.

Where else can you go in the world and look out toward the ocean during low tide, as far as the eye can see, and see nothing but ocean floor?  :) If I were somewhere else and that happened, I'd be headed toward the highest peak.  ;D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tcsmpsi

Quote from: Tom on January 19, 2007, 03:05:26 PM
I've always wondered, If you are spelunking, are you tresspassing? :D

If so, it doesn't feel like it.   smiley_divide
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Ron Wenrich

This might be more to your liking for freshwater and power from the ocean:

http://pesn.com/2006/01/04/9600218_Sea_Solar_Power/
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Cedarman

Yup, going into caves with hibernating Indiana bats is supposedly bad for them. Quite a few caves in Indiana are closed during late fall to spring.  World famous Wyandotte Cave is closed from Sept to April.  We are forced to log on state land only from Nov 15 to Mar 31 in case some of those nice bats want to roost under the bark.

Sorry Tom, no fresh water under the ocean.  Salt water permeates all the rocks at depth.  It also gets saltier the deeper you go in the rocks.  That info comes from petroleum geology courses and my own experience on hundreds of oil and gas exploration wells.

Try going underground in Mammoth Cave National Park without permission.  Even if you enter outside the park and go under the Park you can get into trouble. But the goal of a lot of cavers near the park is to find more cave that connects to the big cave in the Park.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

TexasTimbers

Quote from: estiers on January 19, 2007, 08:29:04 AM
....disseminate....

Dissipate is the proper word in this instance but I know what you meant.
Regular space travel would effect a negative affect on the ozone about like dropping an anchor in the same spot would wear out that column of water.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

leweee

Shhhhhh......don't tell no one but I think I got ozone in this column of water.(drinking glass) :)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

DanG

As the subject of this discussion seems to have drifted toward Ozone, I realized that I didn't really know much about it.  So I went and did a bit of reading about it.  Now, I'm no expert on it, in the wildest of imaginations, but I know more than I did this morning.  This little gambit has led me to no real conclusions, but seems to debunk the notion that rockets will poke holes in the Ozone Layer.  If anything, it will increase the amount of Ozone in the Stratosphere.

In the Troposphere, where we are, it is considered a pollutant, but is commonly used for various industrial purposes.  One of those uses is the purification of drinking water. Leweee, I'm gonna just assume that you had your tongue firmly in your cheek in that last post. ;) :D :D :D

I tried real hard to get all the words in this post correct.  Wouldn't want to offend the Usage Police. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Furby


SwampDonkey

Dang, ya did, done real good. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Fla._Deadheader



  UHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh  that's DONE-DID there Donk.  ::) ::) :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

farmerdoug

And now the Canadian Usage Police are mounting a morning raid on an unsuspecting forester in eastern Canada.  ::) Details of the raid at Noon News. :D :D :D

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

SwampDonkey

The Usage Police raided the place of one SwampDonkey, but he was no where to be found. Unbeknown to them he was busy working away in his shop and was unaware of the raid. ;D

8)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

farmerdoug

Hey, Their the Usage Police after all.  ::) Nobody said that they were very smart. ;D :D :D :D

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Furby

Sunday night the 28th, The Discovery Channel will air "2057".
The program has some concept ideas of what life and space travel will be like 50 years from now.
I plan to watch. :)

SwampDonkey

I don't have satellite any longer or cable.  :-\
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

OneWithWood

Swamp, good excuse to go a visitin' or hang at your local waterin' hole  ;D
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

farmerdoug

Like what local watering hole are you going to find that has the Discovery Channel on? ???

You may just get a little exercise trying to change their channel too. :o :D :D

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

SwampDonkey

You guys haven't lived in rural NB. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Now Owen Maynard, a native of Sarnia Ontario, stocky and authoritative, walked to the lectern.

"It's useful to think of the lunar landing mission as being planned in a series of steps or decision points separated by mission plateaus. The decision to continue to the next plateau is made only after an assessment of the spacecraft's present status and its ability to function properly on the next plateau.

In an afternoon coffee break, Shea quipped: I see our speaker surrounded and making his way to the podium, breaking away from the adoring crowds. You'd think he was an astronaut. [metaphorically speaking]

The next morning, another Avro veteran was introduced: "The episode ended yesterday, you'll recall, with our hardy little band of adventures just arriving on the lunar surface. This morning we pick up the scenario on the surface, and we're about to answer one of the fundamental questions. Will the science that is to be done on the lunar mission be good, or will the whole mission be of no avail? We have the answer to that: No. A Vale named Bob is going to tell us about the science." Robert Vale, from Toronto, was one of the higher ranking people at NASA from the Avro group.

Later Morris Jenkins, another former Avro engineer from Southampton England, was introduced. He was working on the  complexities of trajectories involved in getting the Lunar Module from the earth to the moon surface. He discussed the computers used in maneuvering as well as normal and emergency flight situations. Jenkins explained that the computers would help increase crew safety and the chance of mission success....it looks to us as though we would have no real problems, except the details might kill us.

Another Canadian engineer from Avro was R. Bryan Erb, born in Calgary,  who helped develop the heat shield for the command module. He was part of a group of hard driving engineers. He was always eager to promote the future applications of space exploration. He became chief of the thermo-structures branch and subsystem manager for the Apollo heat shield. .......
"You have it (heat shield) too sharp, you have too much convection: you have it too blunt, you have too much radiation, so you had to have an optimum shape in there."

On Sunday, July 20 1969, the three astronauts donned their space suits and after final preparations, Armstrong and Aldrin floated into Eagle, closed the hatches and separated their spacecraft from Collins aboard Columbia. On the back side of the Moon, Eagle fired its descent engine for the first time to lower its orbit. Coming around the Moon, Eagle got a "go" to try a landing. On a command from Armstrong, the throttleable descent engine began firing again, beginning the 12-minute-long landing sequence that took the astronauts down from 14 km. During the final phase of the landing. Armstrong looked out the window to see where the computer was taking Eagle, and Aldrin called out information from displays on the control panel. Armstrong realized early on that Eagle was overshooting the planned landing point, and the tension of the moment was heightened by computer alarms caused by an overflow of data from landing and rendezvous radars. Armstrong saw that Eagle would land in a football-field sized crater full of boulders, so he took control and set Eagle down in a cloud of dust beyond the crater with the gages showing less than 30 seconds worth of fuel left. After Aldrin called out technical information about the landing, Armstrong announced: "Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed." It was 3:18 p.m. Houston time.

For many, the landing was the climax of Apollo 11. But Maynard had a different view: "The mission wasn't successful until we returned them safely. Until we got them home."

At 9:56 p.m. Houston time, Armstrong's first steps on the moon. With a black-and-white tv camera broadcasting back to Earth everyone could here "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." Later Aldrin joined him on the Sea of Tranquility, declaring the sight to be "magnificent desolation."

[Source: Arrows to the Moon: Avro's Engineers and the Space Race (© 2001)]
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))