Standing Timber Keep

[ehewitt05]

What should a landowner expect to be paid for a % of the standing timber value? 

Realistically there's a lot of costs associated with getting the trees down and to a landing, I get that. Things to factor that are unseen, rot, shake, etc. but surely there is a bench mark 20-30% or something like that. X number of BF per species, total standing value and the amount payable based on an industry rate. 

Or a $/MBF per species or something. Don't like the idea of cutting blindly and just seeing what it'll do at the mill.

Thanks 

[mike_belben]

Edit

[Tacotodd]

AND, it's going to make a difference as to what you want when you ask him to clean his mess up, if at all. Years ago, when I was still in grade school, a logger came by our 3.5 acres house lot and asked about taking the trees on it. Dad said okay but you have to clean up your mess when done. The logger said that he "could" but by the time he was done, it would cost Dad as much as Dad was going to be profiting from the sale. Dad respectfully declined the loggers offer.

BTW, 35trs later, the trees are still there.

Net result. It ALL depends on YOU!

[dgdrls]

I know Marion Center!

Anyway, my limited experience has been 50/50 (60/40 veneer) owner/logger split
for price paid on the landing,   firewood went to cord price per the State Stumpage report.

Chips were paid on a percentage per ton which i recall as 15-20%

D

[stavebuyer]

Generally better to have a registered forester mark and then have him solicit sealed bids. Good timber will net the landowner 60%+ stumpage. Sometimes smaller areas won't warrant that process. Pulp/fire wood is often per ton or per cord with the landowner getting a small %.

Always wise to have a competent forester mark the timber to be cut. How the job is done and what trees are left is more important than what trees are cut and what you were paid.

[nativewolf]

Generally better to have a registered forester mark and then have him solicit sealed bids. Good timber will net the landowner 60%+ stumpage. Sometimes smaller areas won't warrant that process. Pulp/fire wood is often per ton or per cord with the landowner getting a small %.

Always wise to have a competent forester mark the timber to be cut. How the job is done and what trees are left is more important than what trees are cut and what you were paid.

Completely agree.

[Old Greenhorn]

How the job is done and what trees are left is more important than what trees are cut and what you were paid.

This, right here, is worth repeating. This is where it's at. Everybody focuses on the cash now rather than what could be coming later, and when the job is done, they realize what they wound up with, but it's too late.

[BargeMonkey]

Yrs ago I didn't buy alot of wood thru a forester, now I prefer it because the LANDOWNER has someone else to cry to, 90% of these people DONT know exactly what they are getting into, think its a fat paycheck for a few loads of wood. They no concept of footage, skid roads, disturbance, ive been down this road, open the skidder door and say "Call the forester".... 🤷‍♂️ and ive got work coming out of my ears....  firewood off the state right now is going for 8.00, big enough job thats predominantly softwood they throw the hardwood in for free, i tell a landowner im paying 12-15.00 a cord standing and they look at you funny, I work for the log buyer and I get the firewood for FREE... 🤷‍♂️ I always love the 60/40 Veneer talk, less than 10% of what i cut here goes veneer but people jump right on the idea 😆 Depends on the landowner and the volume of wood, this last guy got 50% straight thru and I shipped it down to the bones. 

[mike_belben]

90% of these people DONT know exactly what they are getting into, think its a fat paycheck for a few loads of wood. They no concept of footage, skid roads, disturbance, [...]

Goes right back to that psychological hurdle in the public's collective brain.  I pay the construction guy or land clearing company, but loggers.. They have to pay me.  If a logger mows my lawn, he needs to cut me a check because, well.. Duh hes a logger and hes cutting something green on my property. 

[BargeMonkey]

Mike I walked one with the forester a couple weeks ago, 72 acres, its already been clipped, whats left is garbage and will never get any better because everything here has been high-graded to death. From the creek to the house is a clearcut, 21acres ? And the creek to the landing is 12" up, i asked the forester if he was marking it, he kinda smiled and said he didn't want to spend the money on the paint, "You got this"... 😆... I mean this is going to get leveled... its good in a way BUT the landowner doesn't know what they are getting into, money wise it doesn't add up to alot, but they have a "forester" so it makes it all better 😆. Ive been fighting it but I see a hotsaw and a circle saw coming because of jobs like this, make 8ft wood, feed the pulp monster 🤷‍♂️ 

[ehewitt05]

Thanks everyone for the info. Next question is what is expected cost per MBF to get logs to landing? I mean ballpark what your expecting.

Thanks

[ehewitt05]

Cause thats the other part of the conversation. Just pay to have them cut and skidded out. Relatively flat, horses and cart. Asking 175$/MBF. I thought that seemed a bit high. 

Thoughts? 

[Cub]

If I deal with a landowner on my own and if it's a decent size sale most around here pay landowner 40% on pulp 50% bolts and 60% sawlogs. And paid by the load.  State and county sales and private sales that go out for bids are lump sum sales. Foresters group pulp and bolts as 1. And sawlogs as another. So it will be bid on as say 350 cord of hardwood pulp and bolts 50 cord red pine pulp and bolts and 21.640mbf #2 sawlog and better. So most bid 30% on the pulp and bolts and 40% on sawlogs. I feel the landowner gets taken a little bit on those sales. But they get 1 big check right away rather than being paid as the wood is hauled. 
Barge it sure is nice working with a forester isn't it? I have never done it before but this past winter I had 3 jobs to do through a forester. Just tell landowner call the forester. No worries on my end. And yes I now have more work than I know what to do with. 

[stavebuyer]

Contract rates vary from region to region and by job. Around here the guys who work horses or mules are in high demand and $175 per mbf probably would not generate any interest. Unless someone owed you a favor, you probably couldn't hire a skidder crew in that price range here.

[ehewitt05]

What would expect those guys are getting per MBF with Horse and Cart?

Thanks  

[mike_belben]

Mike I walked one with the forester a couple weeks ago, 72 acres, its already been clipped, whats left is garbage and will never get any better because everything here has been high-graded to death. From the creek to the house is a clearcut, 21acres ? And the creek to the landing is 12" up, i asked the forester if he was marking it, he kinda smiled and said he didn't want to spend the money on the paint, "You got this"... 😆... I mean this is going to get leveled... its good in a way BUT the landowner doesn't know what they are getting into, money wise it doesn't add up to alot, but they have a "forester" so it makes it all better 😆. Ive been fighting it but I see a hotsaw and a circle saw coming because of jobs like this, make 8ft wood, feed the pulp monster 🤷‍♂️

I have an analogy for you guys when breaking the news to landowners who are ignorant enough to be proud of their twizzler stands.  What realtors call "some timber with nature trails" on a tract that is fully closed canopy with less than 3 sawlogs per acre and skidder trails braided to every corner.


Here goes:
Imagine youre running a summer camp. Youve stocked a refrigerator for a dorm full of middle schoolers with pizza and celery, soda and V8 juice.  They arrive to a fully stocked fridge and you let them take what they want without ever removing what they didnt eat.  You just keep stuffing in the same mix every week.



By the end of camp you simply cant fit anything else because its packed with rotten celery, cases of V8 juice covered in dust and extra ranch or garlic sauce cups from the pizzas that some starving kids are ready to drink.  

Theyre all crying that the fridge is full but theres nothing in it to eat!

The rotten celery will never grow into a pizza and the V8 juice will never taste like a coke.  Youve got to throw some or all of that junk out to fit more pizza and soda that they actually want.



If at the end of camp you were to auction the fridge off, a fridge full of pizza and sprite might bring a hundred bucks.  A fridge full of rotten celery might cost $100 to get some kid to clean it and youll probably have to do it yourself for lack of anyone that desparate.


Nature produces everything but the timber industry is a picky eater and the things it likes best grow very slow.  If high grading has gone on long enough the starving industry is willing to eat an uncooked pizza (a 13" oak for example.)




Mr & Mrs landowner,  Youve simply got to empty this yucky fridge out and throw the trash away then let nature refill it if you want an economically profitable forest.

[stavebuyer]

Its been 7 years since I hired a horse logger. At the time it was a five acre wooded parcel I bought at auction and was right around the corner from the loggers homeplace. Gentle downhill skid to the road. Mostly stave sized white oak. Perfect horse logging job(although this fella pulled with mules and would correct you in heartbeat if you mentioned horses lol). He pulled the competitive circuit in the summer. He also had a single axle self-loader truck and put the logs on my yard 6 miles down the road for $.25/ft. It was wet and the tract was at the end of a dead end gravel road. He was able to load the truck while it sat in the road. He normally trades on shares and gets 60% and often bids his logs at the landing. 

At the landing $180 is the about starting point for a skidder crew here. Rough ground/long skids/small timber/lots of sorts etc. all would increase the rate. Trucking from the woods is getting scary. You just about pay whatever is asked if you can find someone.

[YoungStump]

Lots of Amish loggers on my area keep the prices down. I know of horse crews that cut and skid for $425-$450 per tri axle load, approximately 3-4mbf Doyle per load depending on log size. From what I hear skidder crews are around $400/load or $130/mbf maybe a little more.