iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Not Sure It's The Ethanol... Discussion

Started by zandoval, May 05, 2020, 12:49:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

zandoval

Ok...  Had to change the fuel lines out on my Poulan. Of interesting note is that the fuel lines that were in the tank were completely rotted but he fuel lines outside of the tank leading to the carb were still serviceable. Sure the saw has been neglected. Sure the saw has been sitting in a Central Texas garage for a year. I knew better than to even try to start it before checking the lines. The fuel lines in my MS250 Stihl, siting around the same way, but empty, were still serviceable.

But why only the lines in the Poulan tank? I replaced the carb and lines a year ago and put sections of new fuel line into a glass jar with my gas mix (45:1 Premium 92 octane Exxon) as a test. The sections of fuel line in the glass jar were not eroded. I am thinking it is the environment of the tank with air and fuel together that eroded the lines... or something else.

I have also always suspected that it is something more than just the Ethanol in our gas that is causing our chain saw problems. Germany, Sweden, Japan, and the ChiCom countries have all had mandatory use of Ethanol since the 70's. So is it really the Ethanol or something else in the gas.

England and other Euro countries have also had problems with gas line erosion's over the recent years. An Irish acquaintance said he never had problems with his gas until the Ero 2000 gas regulation changes. He also said he has used 10 to 15% and even greater concentrations of Ethanol (1970's) in his saws without difficulty other than adjusting his carb. (but his saws don't sit around unused, he's in the businesses)

Here is a link that I found interesting on gas contents:
What's Really In Our Gasoline?

Yes.. I Know... "Clear your saw of gas before storage!" This appears to be the rule no matter what country your in, or what gas mix you are using, Ethanol or not...
No matter where you're at... There you are...

Real1shepherd

Discussing ethanol in gas is almost like an 'oil thread' discussion. Many will tell you they have never had a problem. Also the petroleum 'experts' will tell you that ethanol is not hygroscopic. They go on to say that as the engines use the fuel, water vapor molecules from the atmosphere replace the gas molecules. Hmmmm.....sounds like almost the same thing to me.

In any event, small engine carbs that have had ethanol run through them that I've taken apart look like carbs that sat outside for ten yrs with non-ethanol aged gas run through them.

The argument is to always use fresh ethanol gas, as it starts to break down in just a few weeks. That much I agree on. Moral here is that if you can access non-ethanol gas, use it. The problems you get in running non-ethanol gas are predictable as they've always been. Introducing ethanol gas seem to present new challenges.

Kevin

Yoter

Quote from: zandoval on May 05, 2020, 12:49:08 PMYes.. I Know... "Clear your saw of gas before storage!" This appears to be the rule no matter what country your in, or what gas mix you are using, Ethanol or not...
Here's what I'll say.  I put a Stihl 025 away full of 100LL Avgas (completely ethanol free) and didn't touch it for over a year.  I picked it up this past weekend and it started on the second pull after false firing once fully choked  8)






ehp

Here is what I know , on racesaws that run methanol or ethanol in a single season go as hard as a rock and thats using the good yellow hose , I believe ethanol fuel like E85 or E98 was harder on the gas line than methanol /nitro is and if you look at real minutes of time the fuel sat in the saw its very little time , I would think a whole season of fuel sitting in saw would not be more than a couple hours and everytime fuel was in the saw it then had flush gas ran threw it so the race fuel never ever sat in saw other than race day

Don P

The "conspiracy" I've heard is that they are solving more refinery waste disposal problems than they used to by using your exhaust system.

charles mann

Quote from: Yoter on October 21, 2021, 02:28:49 PM
Quote from: zandoval on May 05, 2020, 12:49:08 PMYes.. I Know... "Clear your saw of gas before storage!" This appears to be the rule no matter what country your in, or what gas mix you are using, Ethanol or not...
Here's what I'll say.  I put a Stihl 025 away full of 100LL Avgas (completely ethanol free) and didn't touch it for over a year.  I picked it up this past weekend and it started on the second pull after false firing once fully choked  8)
I too run 100LL in all my air cooled engines, esp my stihl kombi and both chainsaws. Iv had my 661 for 5-6 yrs and dumped out the gas the dealer put in the tank and replaced it with avgas at the dealer. Not a single problem with my stihl products. My jonesred, that is another issue, with 1 carb replacement 2 yrs ago and had to take it in 3 wks ago. They claimed they just cleaned the carb and it busted off. IDK, but its running now, and ill see how long before it craps out again. But i have used etho free gas or avgas in my jonesred starting a few months after buying it. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Real1shepherd

Sounds like you're trying to condemn the Jonsered, while lauding the Squeal. Jonsered saws have no particular gas storage problems or are temperamental in the least. I say this after using them professionally for over 40 yrs....many models.

Kevin

David B

It's the methanol and a bunch of other Chems in the pump gas that are bad for carbureted engines or vented tanks. Run pump gas fresh only. Store away with off the shelf store bought pure non ethanol fuel like trufuel or VP. 
Machine and welding shop day job, trees after work.

Real1shepherd

For lots of us, we can still find stations that carry non-ehtanol fuel. It's a hot seller here.....two different stations carry non-ethanol fuel...both Conoco. If you don't use a whole lot of small engine gas in a yr, buy the canned ethanol free gas at the farm store or wherever.

Kevin

charles mann

Quote from: Real1shepherd on October 21, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Sounds like you're trying to condemn the Jonsered, while lauding the Squeal. Jonsered saws have no particular gas storage problems or are temperamental in the least. I say this after using them professionally for over 40 yrs....many models.

Kevin
Sounds like you are assuming the wrong thing. I have no idea what lauding the squeal means, but i like my 2166, just could have gotten a clunker of carb from the get go. 
I dont care if you used them for 6000 yrs, im free to form and express my opinion this, esp since iv been running avgas and having an issue to that of not running avgas. 
If i wanted to condemn the saw, it would have met the same fait as my previous pressure washer, but it didnt and it went to the shop for repair. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Real1shepherd

Quote from: charles mann on October 22, 2021, 08:23:05 AM
Quote from: Real1shepherd on October 21, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Sounds like you're trying to condemn the Jonsered, while lauding the Squeal. Jonsered saws have no particular gas storage problems or are temperamental in the least. I say this after using them professionally for over 40 yrs....many models.

Kevin
Sounds like you are assuming the wrong thing. I have no idea what lauding the squeal means, but i like my 2166, just could have gotten a clunker of carb from the get go.
I dont care if you used them for 6000 yrs, im free to form and express my opinion this, esp since iv been running avgas and having an issue to that of not running avgas.
If i wanted to condemn the saw, it would have met the same fait as my previous pressure washer, but it didnt and it went to the shop for repair.
No one is attempting to take away your "right" to express yourself. I read your post a couple of times. You expect that model Jonsered you have to let you down because of past performances. And like your attitude, I don't care what you expect from that saw if you had it 6000yrs. It could be that particular saw, or it could be you....no way I could know either for sure.

I'm just saying that overall, except for a few models when Electrolux Group AB reared its ugly head in the early 80's, Jonsered saws have been a stellar line. Many like them better than their Husky counterparts and were fiercely loyal to the brand.

Kevin

axeman2021

 Ethanol ruined the fuel line in one of my old Pulans, tried to remove the line and it broke off at the wall of fuel tank.
Today i just buy real gas for Auto Mowers and Chainsaws.

charles mann

Quote from: Real1shepherd on October 22, 2021, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: charles mann on October 22, 2021, 08:23:05 AM
Quote from: Real1shepherd on October 21, 2021, 09:55:02 PM
Sounds like you're trying to condemn the Jonsered, while lauding the Squeal. Jonsered saws have no particular gas storage problems or are temperamental in the least. I say this after using them professionally for over 40 yrs....many models.

Kevin
Sounds like you are assuming the wrong thing. I have no idea what lauding the squeal means, but i like my 2166, just could have gotten a clunker of carb from the get go.
I dont care if you used them for 6000 yrs, im free to form and express my opinion this, esp since iv been running avgas and having an issue to that of not running avgas.
If i wanted to condemn the saw, it would have met the same fait as my previous pressure washer, but it didnt and it went to the shop for repair.
No one is attempting to take away your "right" to express yourself. I read your post a couple of times. You expect that model Jonsered you have to let you down because of past performances. And like your attitude, I don't care what you expect from that saw if you had it 6000yrs. It could be that particular saw, or it could be you....no way I could know either for sure.

I'm just saying that overall, except for a few models when Electrolux Group AB reared its ugly head in the early 80's, Jonsered saws have been a stellar line. Many like them better than their Husky counterparts and were fiercely loyal to the brand.

Kevin
If i didnt like the saw, it would have been used as a target like other gas engines that decide not to want to start.  You interpreted what you wanted and completely wrong in your assumption. Other than fuel related, it has been a great saw, just to small for csm 30+ inch slabs. It is my go to saw, over my stihl 661, when its not down with carb problems. 
Infer what you wish, its neither here nor there. Brand X may work flawlessly for the life time of the owner, while the same brand may not work a season without issues for another user. I dont care what brand it is, if it doesnt work for me, then its useless. If it works part time, then that is better than not all. 
I now bid you good day. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Real1shepherd

A lot of small engines (and large) were never made to have ethanol run through them. Bad on fuel seals, diaphragms and O-rings etc.

Modern cars made to run on ethanol have specially rated fuel seals, diaphragms and O-rings that tolerate the stuff. I'm sure the chainsaw industry has fortified those items as well. But you can't get away with any 'storage' of ethanol without treatment or draining your small engine of it.

Kevin 

Real1shepherd

Quote from: charles mann on October 22, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
If i didnt like the saw, it would have been used as a target like other gas engines that decide not to want to start.  You interpreted what you wanted and completely wrong in your assumption. Other than fuel related, it has been a great saw, just to small for csm 30+ inch slabs. It is my go to saw, over my stihl 661, when its not down with carb problems.
Infer what you wish, its neither here nor there. Brand X may work flawlessly for the life time of the owner, while the same brand may not work a season without issues for another user. I dont care what brand it is, if it doesnt work for me, then its useless. If it works part time, then that is better than not all.
I now bid you good day.
I only interpreted what you initially wrote. Now you've defined it further. Point being that your carb problems with your Jonsered are yours and without further details/input, it's impossible to know if the carb problem is related to your model or to you.

Brand X may work flawlessly for the life time of the owner, while the same brand may not work a season without issues for another user.

While there can be some truth in that statement the more plausible explanation is that saws with design problems will show up across the board if you ask enough owners.....hence the use of forums like these. I'm not familiar with the 2166 in actual use, but it would be easy enough to go on three or four forums and ask around about your particular carb problem. Add to that, I have no idea how well versed you are in diagnosing/fixing carb problems.

If it were my saw and I couldn't figure out the carb problem(which is unlikely), I'd be asking around on the forums and not just taking it down to a saw shop for repair. But then again, you are absolutely 'free' to do whatever you want with your equipment.

Kevin

charles mann

Quote from: Real1shepherd on October 22, 2021, 01:32:54 PM
Quote from: charles mann on October 22, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
If i didnt like the saw, it would have been used as a target like other gas engines that decide not to want to start.  You interpreted what you wanted and completely wrong in your assumption. Other than fuel related, it has been a great saw, just to small for csm 30+ inch slabs. It is my go to saw, over my stihl 661, when its not down with carb problems.
Infer what you wish, its neither here nor there. Brand X may work flawlessly for the life time of the owner, while the same brand may not work a season without issues for another user. I dont care what brand it is, if it doesnt work for me, then its useless. If it works part time, then that is better than not all.
I now bid you good day.
I only interpreted what you initially wrote. Now you've defined it further. Point being that your carb problems with your Jonsered are yours and without further details/input, it's impossible to know if the carb problem is related to your model or to you.

Brand X may work flawlessly for the life time of the owner, while the same brand may not work a season without issues for another user.

While there can be some truth in that statement the more plausible explanation is that saws with design problems will show up across the board if you ask enough owners.....hence the use of forums like these. I'm not familiar with the 2166 in actual use, but it would be easy enough to go on three or four forums and ask around about your particular carb problem. Add to that, I have no idea how well versed you are in diagnosing/fixing carb problems.

If it were my saw and I couldn't figure out the carb problem(which is unlikely), I'd be asking around on the forums and not just taking it down to a saw shop for repair. But then again, you are absolutely 'free' to do whatever you want with your equipment.

Kevin
Im glad you are leaving it up to me to do what i want with my equipment. 
Usually these things happen days before i go back on my 14 day work rotation, so its easier to hand it to those that get paid to do said work. Its usually ready before i get off shift. If i was to go to these multitude of forums, i wouldnt be able to attempt a resolution for 2wks, then tinker with it for 1 day, 3 days or a week, while im trying to get 2 wks of home chores done, plus work related stuff while at hm, plus my personal projects. Time is limited, and time is money, so i feel its better in time management to pay those that do it for a living, to fix the problem and that allows me to put my limited time to other things i need to deal with. 
Prime example, i just got hm 8 days ago, and spent the past 6 fabricating stuff for work and coordinating our upcoming time consuming component change, plus port ops to get the acft on a boat for south america, plus transportation and lodging arrangements for the incoming flt crew and maint personnel and dealing with shipping broker. Im scheduled to work 6 months of the yr but end up working 9-10 months, not leaving much time for personal stuff, that includes fixing a saw, when i can pay someone else to do it. 
Even though i have ran avgas in this saw, as well as my stihl, kohler, honda and briggs equipment, the jonsered and briggs are the only ones to give me fits, leading me to think that the OP may be on to something, with it not being just an issue ethenol fuel, but something else in the manufacturing process of the fuel system and related items. Or some of these items could have be built on a mon or fri. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Spike60

The short answer to the original question is it's definitely the ethanol. Some of the variables being discussed here are due to the fact that all fuel lines are not the same as far as the material being used. Since 2006 most Husky/Jonsered fuel lines were reformulated by using what i think was called "hydrogenated nitril" to make them more resistant to the effects of ethanol. At the time, this was mostly the curly "pig tail" line that was used in most 300 series saws, and still used in the 372's and 455/460 ranchers. They have since moved to model specific molded fuel lines for the 440 and 450 chassis and all of the 500 series saws and I can't remember that I've ever seen an ethanol failure with these newer lines. Not really sure what they are made of, but obviously improved.

The clear line used on the Poulan stuff is horrible, and prone to exactly wat was described in the opening post. Dry, almost turns to powder inside the tank. (It's clear when installed, but never stays that way.) The Poulan based 136/141 saws which I really hate to see come in, mostly have the same issue: Fuel line rotted and broken off right where it comes into the tank. Only model left that has yet to solve this problem is the Red Max based T435. Still see them lose the fuel filter in the tank and then clog the carb screen with sawdust.

Curious on that 2166. Sure can't be ethanol related if it's getting a steady diet of 100LL. I see more of that carb than any other as it's the same as on the 372. Kind of wondering what they found when they cleaned it. The rest of that fuel system is mostly the same as when it originally came out on that chassis in 1996, so it's certainly a well proven design. Is the shop a Husky or Jonserd dealer, or maybe it's a stihl dealer? Not questioning competincy, more about full access to the right parts and info. I wouldn't think there were many Jonny dealers down there in Texas. Up here the stihl dealers can't even sell a proper chain to a Husky user. Constantly giving guys .050 chains for .058 bars. :)

It could also be the coil on those things. There was a switch to digital advance and start curves in those saws, and the early coils resulted in a saw that was fussy on carb adjustments. If the article number on your coil starts with 510 or 522, this is a possibility. Does it ever sound like there's a miss when you start it?
Husqvarna-Jonsered
Ashokan Turf and Timber
845-657-6395

Tom King

Ethanol eats rubber hoses, and diaphragms, but not newer, synthetic ones that can tolerate it.  I forget what year manufacturers changed from rubber.

charles mann

@Spike60 they are a stihl, echo and kohler dealer, plus a mom and pop ag/feed and seed store. The husq dealer is further out from the house. When i went to speak to them the first time to get a carb orded, they told me the same timeframe, 1 wk. and i inquired as to why so long for a husq carb, a d was told jonesred isnt a husq, but a completely different brand. I said copy, walked out the door and went back to the feed and seed store and wont go back or recommend the husq deal. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Echo-man1

I notice that in the newer Echo chainsaw manuals, it says to not use more than 10 % ethanol in the fuel.



 

Page 18:
https://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/f4228686-9d5b-4b42-a8d9-f6784a7b3183/CS-501P_C68515_013020_es

Here in Norway the 95 octane gasoline now contains 10 % ethanol, it was 5 % earlier.

Some 98 octane premium gasoline contains only max 0.5 % Ethanol here in Norway as far as I can find out online.

I only use the pre-mixed Alkylate fuel for my limited firewood-processing on my Echo saws.

The Alkylate fuels may have a small benefit in exposure to toxic exhaust gases as well, but it seems the differences is small:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749116310090

Spike60

@charles mann Some dealers don't want to be helpful. EVERY Husky dealer that uses the EPC, (electronic parts catelog), first goes to a page that lists all of the coporate brands, including Jonsered. and can look up parts for all of them. It would be almost impossible not to know that.

Had a guy call from a couple hours away who was trying to get an air filter for his 2188 from his local Husky dealer who stated he couldn't get it."tell him to order the low top filter for a 385". "There's no such thing as a 385 low top". "Put him on the phone", and I gave him the part number.
Husqvarna-Jonsered
Ashokan Turf and Timber
845-657-6395

Somewhat Handy

I like the OP's suggestion that something other than ethanol is (partly) to blame. I think most rubber lines are some type of vulcanized hydrocarbon, some with carbon black added to them for durability, like car tires. Modern gasolines tend to have more detergents that attack varnish ( also a vulcanized hydrocarbon?) and carbon build up on valves in engines. Heat accelerates many chemical reactions, so the hot garage in Texas may be another factor. Ethanol by itself is surely no Bueno, but it's probably helped along by many possible added factors. I don't think there's much way to avoid certain fuel additives without having a hotline to the chemist in charge of your local fuel mixes, though.

Thank You Sponsors!