The economics of logging

[Gordon]

There are many people that are great loggers, or equipment operators, but not well schooled in business. This is why alot of businesses fail not just in the logging industry but many others as well. Then there are others that just survive and some that make a killing.

It always seems that when work slows it's always the employees that suffer first with cut backs of one kind or another in hours per week or benifits. Afterall that is one of the biggest pieces of the pie that you can cut a piece out of. It's a variable expense unlike the equipment that is a fixed expense.

The same holds true on any industry that is "equipment heavy". Think about it construction, farming, mining and logging all can have high equipment costs. The key is to be able to not only keep that machine working, but at a profit. The more overhead you have the more difficult it becomes to make a profit. Keep it small and keep it simple at first, grow slowly and you might be in it for the long haul.

It's sad to see a person go under because of poor business decisions and loose everything they have worked for. Save some money during the good times for the bad times cuz bad times will show up sooner or later. Draw out a good business plan, don't just shoot from the hip. Make goals and try to keep them. Man the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the street. ;)
Gordon

[Tillaway]

Bud Man,

You supply saw, gas, oil, chains, wedges, jacks, ax and a drive your own pickup for that rate.  You also work about 5 to 8 months a year 6 days a week.  I can talk to a friend that cuts here if you are still interested. ;)

A friend of mine cuts in Oregon for 22.50 hr.  He supplies saw, pickup and other tools they supply all fuel, bars chains and oil.  They usually work 6 hours, 5 days a week up there year around.

Feller buncher operators get around $15hr, sometimes a little more.  Delimber and loader operators get around the same, more if they are the side rod.  Skidder operators make less.

LW  The Faller (busheler, chopper, cutter) uses a chainsaw.

[Frank_Pender]

Here is the setting:  I have seventy acres of prime Douglas Fir, with some small stands of White Fir thrown in ( Grand Fir) some small amount of very nice Oregon White Oak (perhaps 15 truck loads)  that is real nice merch.   I get and order for some Douglas Fir dimensional lumber.  Let say, 2,500 bdfit of a mix of 2 x 4's and 2 x 6's all 8'.  I am out of logs in my yard for the order and in order to fulfill the order must harvest some of my own trees.  The going market for my quality of timber is $575 m Scribner scale for long logs (32').   When I saw other peoples Fir logs I charge $210m.  The primary question her is:  What do I charge for the finished sawn lumber per m?


       Woodmills, I tought for 30 years here in Dallas, Oregon. and just retired three years ago.  I use to cut a 100 cords a year myself and teach full time also.  Ten years ago I began modifying the production of firewood to lumber with the purchase of my first Mobile Dimension Sawmill.  I still have a few older time customers for firewood, to the tune of about 10 cords.  That is all.  I keep most for myself, for the house and the Kiln operation.  As to the logging end of things, I leave most of that up to some of my ex-students.  I find them jobs and they in return pay me a commission or I take it in the form of logs or burl.   I just put a job together for one fellow and he bagan today.  The chip and saw market of paying about  $54 a ton.  :'( :'(  Last year we were at $62 a ton.  We have to haul about a 2 1/2 hour turn around per load.  the land owner will get $12 per ton.   remainder to the logger. For the sawmill logs were will be getting
$550m.  We are using a feller buncher processor on 35% or less terrain.   This is a thinning only job, so we will be there for only a couple of weeks.  And I have another lined up after
that.  I like to keep my students working long after the 7th grade. :D :D

[Bud Man]

Didn't menchun all dem kom-la-kshuns    n yer teaser post, I'll jest stay hear at Mickey-Dees   8)  n keep on wrapping de's burgers and smiling 2 folks as da cum n da dor, let me kno if n any op-nens cum up fer my tipe qualerfur-kshuns  :'(

[Cedar Eater]

If all I do is lay down 6' cedar logs and 8' posts, I can probably fell, limb and buck one cord per 4 hr. day. This is in winter, in snow, in a swamp, at my age (44) and with a small chainsaw (Stihl 017 - just right for this kinda work). Making logs from trees is only a part of the story. My actual productivity (from tree to mill) averages one cord per week of 4 hr. days. My rolling stock gets stuck and breaks down routinely . I slow down when my body tells me to. A trip to the mill takes a whole 4 hr. day and I can't haul more than 1.75 cords. This makes my hourly rate about $6.50 before expenses. Clearly, I wouldn't do this work for a living, but I have no problem doing it for a few months per year while it furthers my land stewardship goals.

I can lift and carry or throw a 6' cedar log. I can skid two behind me with a nylon tow strap. I can boost my productivity by limbing where I fell and then skidding the whole pole (sometimes several) to the landing behind my tractor for bucking. I can reach the landing with my truck and trailer, but I can pull the trailer with my tractor and have less chance of getting stuck. I don't envision ever averaging more than 2 cords per week without a coworker and more productive equipment. A coworker would more than double the productivity, but then there would be liability and all the other issues of employment that a lone tree farmer can bypass. I can't imagine getting a hydroax or timco or even a grapple skidder into (and then back out of) the swamp. A cable skidder might be the way to go, but they aren't cheap. I could mount a winch behind my tractor and that might be my next equipment upgrade. I don't want to have to work 10 hour days or have trouble sleeping..

[Corley5]

Cedar Eater,  Have you looked into a Farmi or Fransgard skidding winch?  We've got a Fransgard 4000 that we use on our 180 Massey Ferguson and have used several winters on a friends Kubota in his cedar swamp.  It makes life, especially in the swamp, much easier.  That little Kubota with front end loader, tire chains and the winch is really good in the swamp.  Throw down some boughs and freeze a trail as you go.

[woodmills1]

I'm with the cable winch crowd.  my grapple trailer has one driven by hydraulics, its not fast but does have pulling power.  on the largest trees i have it will pull most of the tree to the road after a log or two is cut off.  really saves wear and tear on the tractor if i can stay off of the forest floor and on my woods road.

[Cedar Eater]

Thanks Corley5. I found the Fransgard at:

http://www.logloader.com/winches/

My tractor would use the V2800. If I could get one for about half the list price, it would be a no brainer. At the list price ($1975), I'd have to do some serious figgerun.

I found the Farmi here, but no prices:

http://www.cscparts.com/wwe/farmi.html

[Frank_Pender]

I know this is a bit off of the logging economics but does deal with the whole of the processing of wood fiber.  I got a call yesterday (Sat. Mar. 23)  from a fella that wanted me to dry him 20m bd.ft. of Douglas Fir. :D  the ol' chash register went ching, ching.  The brain said stop.  At volume I would be 10 months drying his lumber. :'(   Question: Does one begin to think of expanding with that kind of inquirey?   Probably not.  But it would be nice to be at 5m or 6m per run of drying.   :P

[Bud Man]

Sounds like the right time to add another or enlarge present KD process and with a tight contract for 20mbf this customer will pay for a chunk of it, and with new Tarriff --  KD dimension lumber prices going up as a result, sounds time to put pencil to paper  "Opportunity Could Be Knocking"   :P   CHING...CHING....CHING    8)

[Ron Scott]

About $500,000 worth of mechanization working in a first thinning red pine. Timbco Feller Buncher and Fabtec Forwarder.

[L. Wakefield]

snip

That little Kubota with front end loader, tire chains and the winch is really good in the swamp.  Throw down some boughs and freeze a trail as you go.

snip

   That Kubota is the one my husband is trying to talk me into. I'll put it in the mental file that you make a favorable comment here. You're talking 4wd, right?   lw

[Cedar Eater]

Watch it lw. Those Kubota guys are as bad as the Husky bunch. :D :D :D When you want a compact diesel tractor, shop around. John Deere, Kubota and New Holland make pretty much equivalent tractors, but the minor differences can get you. I do things with my New Holland that I've been told would break a green or orange tractor with equivalent horsepower in two. The New Holland has a stronger and heavier frame and that can be especially important with a 5 ft wide front end loader on a 4 ft 8 inch wide tractor.

I'm not saying the New Holland is perfect. Limbs have deliberately jumped up and knocked the hydraulic oil filter off my tractor twice and it dumped the whole reservoir (> 5 gallons) both times. Those dastardly buzzards get away with it because the designers at New Holland gave them the opportunity. >:( It coudn't possibly have been the fact that I take the tractor where no tractor was designed to go. ;D

I'm not saying Kubota or Deere are inferior, just different. All three dealers will tell you their strengths and gloss over their weaknesses. You owe it to yourself to consider all three and then get them in a bidding war.

[woodmills1]

don't leave out the newcommer kioti.  i am really impressed with my lk3054.  works and doesn't complain.

[Gordon]

Jeez guys just kuz I own a Kubota and saw logs with a Husky that can't me me all bad can it. Well my winch was a Norse and I"ve been very happy with it over the past few years.

One small note that is a very important one. Skidding logs with a farm tractor can be very dangerous if your not real careful. Also some modifcations should be done to the tractor to make is safer in the woods both to protect the tractor and the operator.

Here is a link to a post I put in the knowledge base. It's about using a farm tractor for logging.
https://forestryforum.com/tips/tips.cgi?display:1003448235-25674.txt

Gordon

[Corley5]

Kubota's seem to be pretty good machines.  We put tire chains on the rears of the one I speak of.  With them and its four wheel drive it'll climb just about straight up 8).

[PeterRennie]

My take on the economics of logging.

Win the lottery.

Log until its all gone.

[Tillaway]

Peter,
 ;D ;D Kind of like Farming and Fishing.

[Corley5]

An old farmer by Gaylord was fortunate enough to have a couple oil wells on his farm.  When asked what he was going to do with the extra money.  He said he'd be able to afford to keep farming

[psychotic1]

Want to make a small fortune in forestry??


Start with a large one.