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Linus checks out Starlink

Started by Ianab, February 10, 2021, 04:18:23 AM

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kilingitcountry

I also signed up for Starlink. Currently getting 0.65 Mbps down and 3.6Mbps upload with three kids doing more and more online learning. Very exciting times!!

- James

John Mc

Quote from: kilingitcountry on March 23, 2021, 06:41:19 AM
I also signed up for Starlink. Currently getting 0.65 Mbps down and 3.6Mbps upload with three kids doing more and more online learning. Very exciting times!!
That's interesting: I've never heard of a residential service that gets higher upload speeds than download speeds.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

After the "problem alert" I was seeing on the Starlink portal went away, I noticed something else: the firmware in the Starlink equipment updated, and download speeds increased. I'm now almost always getting over 200 Mbps download, and getting in the 250-300 range is not uncommon. It's unusual for it to drop as low as 100 Mbps.

I did have a 90 minute Zoom conference last night. The 20+ second dropouts are gone. I did still have the occasional 1 or 2 second stutters that I've had all along, and a couple of 5 second freezes. I'm optimistic that that will continue to improve as more satellites come on line, and they continue to tweak their software.

Whether the speed increases I'm seeing are part of the firmware update, or the result of more satellites launched and in position, I don't know. It's been sustained for long enough now that I'm convinced it's not just random (I had seen +/- 250 speeds once or twice in the past, but it was not repeatable.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

firefighter ontheside

Well, I have starlink up and running.  I mounted it on the same mount that our old wifi internet radio was mounted.  It appears with the direction the think wants to point, there is a tree that may  be obstructing its view at times.  I guess I will have to move it to the other end of the roof.  Even with obstructions it's 10x faster than our old internet.
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1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Ianab

Quote from: John Mc on March 23, 2021, 09:00:52 AMI did still have the occasional 1 or 2 second stutters that I've had all along,


Possible that those are a "feature" in something real time like Zoom. I don't see how the system can swap from one Sat to the next without some slight delay?  Streaming doesn't matter because Netflix etc buffer 30+ seconds of video in case of minor glitches / dropouts like that. 

The technology the antenna uses is quite interesting, and explains the cost (really cheap for what it actually is). Phased Array is a flat plane of tiny individual antenna, but they time the send / receive slightly for each element to "direct" the receive / sent "beam". So while the Satellites might transit overhead in minutes, the dish isn't mechanically tracking them, just adjusting it's beam direction on the fly. So when it's time to switch to the new satellite, it's an almost instant electronic re-tune of the antenna to switch over. It doesn't have to mechanically track and acquire the new signal.  

Phased array - Wikipedia

The individual satellites will have a finite service life. Because of the low orbit they need to use small thrusters to stay in the correct orbit, otherwise the tiny atmospheric drag would soon pull them out of position and bring them down. When they run out of propellant after a few years, they will soon drop out of orbit. But the idea is to simply launch more as needed. Because they can manoeuvre they can be adjusted to cover the gap of a failed satellite. That's possible why there was coverage gaps for a while, if they had a couple of satellites fail it would take time to nudge the others into a full shell again. As they fill the shells there should be several satellites in range at any time, so the failure of one might simply mean a higher load on the neighbouring ones. So no dropout, just slightly slower connect until they can adjust orbits. If they promise ~60 mbit, and it drops from 200 to 100, well you can't really complain. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

John Mc

Quote from: Ianab on March 24, 2021, 03:07:45 AMQuote from: John Mc on Yesterday at 09:00:52 AM I did still have the occasional 1 or 2 second stutters that I've had all along, Possible that those are a "feature" in something real time like Zoom. I don't see how the system can swap from one Sat to the next without some slight delay? Streaming doesn't matter because Netflix etc buffer 30+ seconds of video in case of minor glitches / dropouts like that.

Normally, the transition is seamless. At one point, I had a site that showed me which satellites were overhead (unfortunately, I can't find that site now). I'm not sure how real-time it was, but when I can go a 30-60 minutes without a noticeable glitch, during which time the satellites should have switched at least a couple of times, I think they've got that part figured out. If there is a pause, it's too brief to cause an issue, even with a live video feed like zoom. If there was a transition, it was so brief my brain must have filled in the fraction of a syllable that was missing.


Quote from: Ianab on March 24, 2021, 03:07:45 AMThe technology the antenna uses is quite interesting, and explains the cost (really cheap for what it actually is). Phased Array is a flat plane of tiny individual antenna, but they time the send / receive slightly for each element to "direct" the receive / sent "beam". So while the Satellites might transit overhead in minutes, the dish isn't mechanically tracking them, just adjusting it's beam direction on the fly. So when it's time to switch to the new satellite, it's an almost instant electronic re-tune of the antenna to switch over. It doesn't have to mechanically track and acquire the new signal. Phased array - Wikipedia

Yeah, I find that technology fascinating. I used to be a ham radio operator in my youth, but did not deal with anything remotely as complex as that for my antenna technology.


Quote from: Ianab on March 24, 2021, 03:07:45 AMThe individual satellites will have a finite service life. Because of the low orbit they need to use small thrusters to stay in the correct orbit, otherwise the tiny atmospheric drag would soon pull them out of position and bring them down. When they run out of propellant after a few years, they will soon drop out of orbit. But the idea is to simply launch more as needed. Because they can manoeuvre they can be adjusted to cover the gap of a failed satellite. That's possible why there was coverage gaps for a while, if they had a couple of satellites fail it would take time to nudge the others into a full shell again. As they fill the shells there should be several satellites in range at any time, so the failure of one might simply mean a higher load on the neighbouring ones. So no dropout, just slightly slower connect until they can adjust orbits. If they promise ~60 mbit, and it drops from 200 to 100, well you can't really complain.

I have no complaints at all about the speed. Even the +/-100 we were getting is more than we need. We're just using a fraction of the 180-280 download speeds we are seeing now. The I can have two kids streaming YouTube on it's highest resolution setting or watching a movie on Amazon and still be on a Zoom conference without any issues. Even the brief 2 second gaps I have been seeing all along are just a minor annoyance, and I expected them during the Beta test period. The 20-30 second or more gaps were a real problem for me (but generally did not affect the kids streaming, since they were buffered ahead).

One person on the Starlink Reddit site suggested that it had to do with the new satellite launch that happened around that time: his hypothesis was that they needed to adjust orbits of existing satellites to accommodate the new arrivals, and that that created gaps in coverage until they were all settled in to their new orbits.

Got my fastest download speeds ever this morning: 395 Mbps (It helps when you get up before the kids start using up the bandwidth.) That appears to be a fluke, since it has not been repeated, but I see others reporting occasional speeds in the 390-400 range.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Sedgehammer

I can hardly wait for ours. Downloaded pics from my wifes cell to the desk top and uploading them to the cloud. 10 days later still uploading and causing all sorts of issues with our other things, so have had to pause it during awake hours. 
Necessity is the engine of drive

firefighter ontheside

Got home from work this morning at 0800 and went straight to work on moving the antenna from one end of the house to the other, plus mounting it at the peak where it had been halfway down on other end.  No obstructions at all now according to the Starlink app.  It's working much better now.  I even saw speed up to 140 Mbps.

 
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btulloh

That is impressive and very usable speed. I've noticed that very few severs will give you more than 150, so gigabit only makes a big difference if you've got a bunch of people doing stuff simultaneously. 

Good report!
HM126

Ianab

Quote from: John Mc on March 24, 2021, 07:18:32 AMGot my fastest download speeds ever this morning: 395 Mbps (It helps when you get up before the kids start using up the bandwidth.) That appears to be a fluke, since it has not been repeated, but I see others reporting occasional speeds in the 390-400 range.


I think the theoretical max speed is quite high, but you normally share the satellites bandwidth with "X" other users. As more users come online your share of the bandwidth gets smaller. But of course they are steadily launching more satellites to handle the increasing load. 

But yes if you get up really early, you practically get the satellite to yourself;D
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Sedgehammer

Our order was just confirmed. Should be arriving shortly. Can't wait. While our download speeds are ok, it's our uploads that suck. 1mbps. We're still uploading pictures from my wife's cell phone from a month ago. I have to keep canceling the upload during the day or no internet. 
Necessity is the engine of drive

John Mc

Just received an update email from Starlink last night. We'll see if some of the changes they've made reduce the incidences of that brief stutter we've been having (though I think the real issue is that I need to get the dish off of the picnic table in my side yard and up on to the roof, where it will avoid that small amount of obstruction it sees in its current location.)

Throughout the beta program, customer feedback has helped drive some of our most important changes to date as we continue to test and scale the network.

The Starlink team has implemented a number of improvements since our last update. Below are some of the key highlights:
Starlink Expansion
Since rollout of initial U.S. service in October 2020, Starlink now offers limited beta service in Canada, U.K., Germany and New Zealand. To date, we have deposits from almost every country around the world; going forward, our ability to expand service will be driven in large part by governments granting us licensing internationally.

Preventative Maintenance

Recently some beta users saw short but more frequent outages, particularly in the evening hours. This was caused by two main issues— preventive maintenance on various ground gateways, coupled with a network logic bug that intermittently caused some packet processing services to hang until they were reset. The good news is fixes were implemented and users should no longer see this particular issue.

Gateway Availability
As more users come online, the team is seeing an increase in surges of activity, particularly during peak hours.  The gateway infrastructure to support these types of surges is in place, but we are awaiting final regulatory approval to use all available channels.  Near term fixes have been implemented to facilitate better load balancing in the interim, and this issue will fully resolve once all approvals are received.

Dynamic Frame Allocation
The Starlink software team recently rolled out our dynamic frame allocation feature which dynamically allocates additional bandwidth to beta users based on real time usage. This feature enables the network to better balance load and deliver higher speeds to the user.

Connecting to the Best Satellite

Today, your Starlink speaks to a single satellite assigned to your terminal for a particular period of time.  In the future, if communication with your assigned satellite is interrupted for any reason, your Starlink will seamlessly switch to a different satellite, resulting in far fewer network disruptions. There can only be one satellite connected to your Starlink at any time, but this feature will allow for choice of the best satellite.  This feature will be available to most beta users in April and is expected to deliver one of our most notable reliability improvements to date.
These upgrades are part of our overall effort to build a network that not only reaches underserved users, but also performs significantly better than traditional satellite internet.  

To that end, the Starlink team is always looking for great software, integration and network engineers. If you want to help us build the internet in space, please send your resume to starlinksoftwarejobs@spacex.com.


Thank you for your feedback and continued support!


The Starlink Team
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Sixacresand

To keep from doing research myself, how much downloaded data will each customer be allowed each month or is it unlimited?  My wife and I max out monthly data allowance from hughes net within a couple weeks.  And we don't do movies or hook up to a smart tv. 
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

John Mc

Quote from: Sixacresand on April 07, 2021, 09:17:18 AM
To keep from doing research myself, how much downloaded data will each customer be allowed each month or is it unlimited?  My wife and I max out monthly data allowance from hughes net within a couple weeks.  And we don't do movies or hook up to a smart tv.
There are currently no limits. They are not guaranteeing there will never be limits. They do recognize that they may need to put a policy in place at some point to address "abusers".
That has some people worried - there is concern that they will get sucked in, and then get hit with "extras" down the road. I'm not worried about it at this point. It is so much better than the flaky DSL line we had, that I jumped on it. (In theory 7 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up - but that's only on a good day, and we're likely to loose it entirely or slow to slightly better than dial up speeds when it rains or the wind blows stronger than a stiff breeze.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

firefighter ontheside

 @John Mc my wife read some excerpts from that a few days ago.  It does seem to working better with very few interruptions.  The first time my son tried to do his skype trombone lesson it kept cutting off completely.  The one he did last night was flawless.  Also my other son has online all day wednesday and I think that only had a few very short buffering moments.  We are very happy at this point.
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Ianab

Dishy McFlatface to become ?fully mobile,? allowing Starlink use away from home | Ars Technica

Currently the starlink base station needs to stay put, but by end of year you should be able to move it around (more satellites and a software update coming) 

Dishy McFlatface  :D
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

firefighter ontheside

I saw that Ian.  I told my wife she can be the one who climbs up the 32' ladder to get the thing down from the roof and then pull out all the wire so we can take it with us in the camper.  This is all great, but until they make it where the 100' cord disconnects at the dish it will never be practical.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
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Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Ljohnsaw

My sister sent me a link to a similar story.  She called me last night and said that was good news - I wouldn't have to buy two.  One for the house and one for the cabin.  I could just move it when I need it.  The only problem is I need internet at the house all the time for the solar monitoring (and Netflix for others that are staying home) and will need it all the time up at the cabin so I can have cameras there to view the weather from home.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Ianab

Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 21, 2021, 09:48:04 AM
My sister sent me a link to a similar story.  She called me last night and said that was good news - I wouldn't have to buy two.  One for the house and one for the cabin.  I could just move it when I need it.  The only problem is I need internet at the house all the time for the solar monitoring (and Netflix for others that are staying home) and will need it all the time up at the cabin so I can have cameras there to view the weather from home.
Fair enough, you actually NEED 2 different internet connections. Other folks want their one  internet connection to work wherever they are. 
It's a bit like Starlink not being a magic solution for everyone. But there are several million people that it WILL be the best option for. Some of those will be mobile, as in, live in a housebus etc.  Housebus is an old (or newer Japanese) bus converted into a camper. 2 people we know live that way and don't have ANY fixed address. Park up, drag out the Antenna and clip it in place on the top of the bus would work for them. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Don P

Soo, I've seen it 2 nights this week, a line of what i assume to be starlink satellites, or, we're being invaded. I just counted 60 in a straight line.

firefighter ontheside

That would be it.  They are not always visible like that.  We had the train go over our house many months ago.  Pretty cool.
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Southside

Saw the same thing here at the same time Don. Was walking back from checking cows and happened to look up. 

They actually diverged and had two lines going. Wondered if it was ICBM'S for a moment. Wife had to look online to see what it was. 
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Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Ljohnsaw

The satellite train is splitting up.  I have a reminder on my phone to catch a sighting on Sunday 8:50pm, 9:12pm and 9:27pm.  They will be heading from NW to SE.  A couple days ago they were traveling SW to NE.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Southside

The main group was heading SSE, the smaller group more due E, then there were a couple of stragglers heading on their own.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Ianab

The train of satellites will only be visible just after sunset, and just before sunrise. That's when it's dark on the ground, but still sunlight at the height the sats are. Most of the night they will be in the Earths shadow, so you won't see them. 


Just been reading up a bit more on how they work. Each little satellite has a Hall Effect thruster. This uses Xenon gas as a propellant, and electrically (from the solar panel) accelerates it to very high speed, pushing the satellite in the other direction. Not high thrust, but very reliable and efficient. So the satellites get released from the Falcon Rocket in a bunch, and then fire up their little thruster to gradually move into the correct orbit. It's more efficient to adjust their orbit slowly. If they pick up too much extra speed, they need extra propellant to slow down again. Hence the trains are only gradually spreading apart.  Once in position they can use the thruster to maintain the correct orbit, and when it's running out of gas, use the last dregs to push the used satellite out of orbit again (less space junk). So conserving propellant is important, as that is what will dictate the life of satellite. 


Contrast that with the Rocket Labs system that has a propelled 3rd "kick" stage that lets it insert micro-sats into different orbits from the same launch. Smaller sats, but they don't have to power themselves into a different orbit. The kicks stage then uses the last of it's fuel to de-orbit.  
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

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