Finland!

[chep]

Hey all,

I am flying into Helsinki, Finland on Tuesday and traveling over to the western part of the country to spend some time with a dear friend. I know that the Scandinavians are prety famous for their forest technology and managment strategies. Wondering if anyone knows any neat spots, companies or things of interestI'll  to recomend to a young woodchuck such as myself.
Even if you have a question about stuff going on in the country and want to give me a homework assignement or a strange mission then I am pretty down for the challenge, and would be willing to do my best at providing a good report back to the forum on any of my findings.
I'll check back in over the next few weeks to see if anyone takes me up on this offer!
thanks
chep

[Mooseherder]

Your assignment if you choose to accept is:

Have Scandinavians ever tried eating Grits? ;D

[nsmike]

BrandonTN is currently studying forestry in Finland I suggest you PM him if he does't see this post.

[woodtroll]

What products are they producing? Is it small tree operations or what size are they producing?

[BrandonTN]

Hey chep, welcome to Finland!  I'm here, too. .Great to hear someone from the FF is here!
...btw, thanks nsmike for remembering me.  ;D

chep, I'm over on the eastern side of Finland, in Joensuu. I am more familiar with this area, in the region called North Karelia. It's about a 5 hour train ride north of Helsinki, and about 60 km from the Russian border.

Neat spots? Hmm......finland is pretty sparse, people-wise, and development wise...which is good. :D The lakes of central and eastern finland are beautiful. But I recommend finding the nearest national park wherever you are, and spending time there walking about the woods, and getting to know the flora and fauna. If you have time, drive north and check out the Aurora Borealis, the Northern Lights. Also, I recommend trying the sauna. :D Finns are crazy about saunas.

As for more forestry related stuff, the forest sites here in North Karelia are generally "poorer" nutrient-wise, which means more Scots pine and less Norway spruce and birch than further south near Helsinki. I am not actually sure about the west coast, but I'm sure inland is about the same as the east...generally further north you go the poorer the sites get. Lots of Scots pine management where I'm at.
Silviculture is pretty simple out here, and with Finland being so flat, being precise with high tech machines is easier than America.
Finns are much less wasteful than Americans, it seems when it comes to utilization of the forests, and just using resources in general. For example, the toilet in my bathroom has the option of 2 flushes: 1 with more powerful flush and one for less powerful.  ;D  It's the little things like that. And in all building corridors are lights with motion sensors that turn off when people are not around. And recycling paper and cardboard is the norm in every institution and apartment complexes, etc.

Lots of wood energy out here. There is an electric plant here in Joensuu that burns wood for electicity....can't remember the name, something like Forum. There is also 5 or 6 nuclear plants in Finland. I don't think there are much, if any, coal plants. With only 5 million Finns, that seems like alot. But it's so cold here, and winter is so long, I imagine the heating bill is pretty high.

If you want to see some forestry operations, I recommend contacting someone with the government. One of my classes took a field trip to watch a harvester cut pine trees "to length" on government land. The harvester was of course nearly brand new and of high technology.

The Finnish forest research institute is a good source of info. It is based here in Joensuu. It's called METLA...here's the link:
http://www.metla.fi/index.html

Let me know if I can help you anymore! And let me know if you come to eastern Finland!

peace,

Brandon

[Rick Alger]

Hey Chep and Brandon,

If you come across info on horselogging operations in Finland, I would appreciate seeing it. Most of my horselogging work is in small spruce/fir like they have over there. I'll bet they have some new techniques for handling small wood.

Rick

[chep]

Hey from Finland:
Brendon I have a couple of questions since my train rides and bussing about...one thing is for sure, these people are into their management, The amount of TSI work that I have seen is amazing. I guess since trees and peat are their only natural resources then they might as go for the gold?
1. Is scotch pine (Pinus sylvestris) native here or naturalized?
2. Can you give me some ideas on rotation ages for harvesting at 'maturity' especially the birch, pine and spruce.
3. In terms of regeneration, are they pretty much gauranteed to have 1 if not all 3 of those species come in after a disturbance? What else would come in? I have seen a few tamarack and some popal but not much else
I am amazed at the quality of the birch and scotch pine. Having been in the Adiondacks and seen the scotch pine planted there, i am totally dazzled at how straight the pines are here. The birches are also pretty incredible...
thanks
chep

[BrandonTN]

Hey chep 

Yeah, good point about why the Finns are into their management...limited number of resources, cold/dark climate, etc. They are a disciplined and hardworking people. What gets me is how they survived for centuries in this climate with these long, dark winters.

1. Scots pine is native in Finland and most other parts of Northern and Central Europe.
2. Harvesting age of stands: Based on the latitude...

NORTHERN FINLAND: Scots pine 90 years on best sites, 150 yrs on poorest. Norway spruce 100-130 yrs on fertile sites. Birch 50-60 yrs on fertile sites.
CENTRAL FINLAND: Scots 80 yrs on best, 100 on poorest. Spruce 70-100 yrs on fertile. Birch 60-70 yrs on fertile.
SOUTHERN FINLAND: Scots 70 yrs on best, 90 on poorest. Spruce 70-90 yrs on fertile. Birch 60-70yrs on fertile.
3. And yes, after disturbance pine, birch or spruce will come in. Like I said, I'm more familiar with the forest of eastern Finland. I have traveled to Southern Finland, but when I was there I was paying more attention to the women and concrete, if ya understand.  : :D But Those 3 are the main timber trees.

Scots pine and birch are both very shade intolerant, but birch will dominate the more fertile sites. Scots pine dominates the poorer nutrient/moisture sites. Spruce is more shade tolerant and will come in under the birch. Usually you see birch and spruce together, and pure pine stands.

One of the marks of the Nordic harvesting system is cutting the logs "to-length" in the forest with a harvester. Like I said before, the flat terrain and pine forests allow this to happen. Finland produces 50% of the worlds new hgih-tec harvesters.

Have a nice vist, chep! Let me know if you have any more questions....It's  nice to talk about this. And share some more insights you notice. ciao!

[SwampDonkey]

I am amazed at the quality of the birch and scotch pine. Having been in the Adiondacks and seen the scotch pine planted there, i am totally dazzled at how straight the pines are here. The birches are also pretty incredible...

White birch grows pretty big here, compared to the south. Not hard to find an 18 or 20" white birch in stands of less frequent disturbance. Some forest companies still gut a boreal stand of timber and leave the white birch to fall down. They die within 3 years from sun scald and root damage. Easy to see 20" birch, just going to waste. It's not the greatest cavity tree because it breaks down fast compared to a maple or pine.

As I've explained before about those Scots pine here, the seeds were not taken from the choicest stands in Europe and many times not matched to site conditions. We also get insect damage quite bad here in them. In some situations, the tree improvement groups never began until a long time after those seeds where brought here.

[SwampDonkey]

Was 18" 4 years ago, must be nearly 20 now.




The rest of the stem and top.

The bark will go platy on the but log just like yellow birch if it gets much bigger.



Regen? Don't have to worry about that around here. :D

[barbender]

I have friends that visited Finland and they were amazed by the quality of the Baltic birch compared to our paper or white birch in Minnesota.

[jim king]

We have quite a lot of Finlanders come to the Amazon for vacations.  I have never seen people that can drink so MUCH.  Are they the same at home ?¿

[Coon]

jim,   I think they are like many of the northerners here.... they need to drink to keep their blood thinned out and keep it from freezing solid......  If the weather keeps persisting like it is here I think I may need to have a nip or three.   ;D  :D

Brad.

[beenthere]

Casting the Finns as drinkers from the very small elite cross-section that can afford vacationing in the Amazon might be a bit false harsh.  IMO   ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Naw, they deserve it. Both the harsh lashing and the liquor. :D

[BrandonTN]

In TN, we don't really have birch. Nothing I can compare it to...

And as for Finnish behavior at home, it sounds like it is pretty much the same...lots of drinking. Or mostly lots of fast drinking to get drunk quick. Like much of American college campuses...not too different from America.  ;)

[Ron Scott]

Great saunas though. ;)

[PAFaller]

I'd like to know how well the northern European countries have weathered the unstable world economy. There's plenty of talk about India, China , and other large nations, but little talk about how smaller countries have faired. Oh, and if you can sneak over Swedens border and find the bikini team... and take some pictures, that would be cool 8)

[BrandonTN]

Tomorrow I'm going out with a Finnish family to help them cut down some Christmas trees. They sell them this time of year. It is -6 degrees F right now. For a guy from TN, this is some cold stuff!!!!!  8)

[SwampDonkey]

That'll make a real gentleman out of ya. Both cutting Christmas trees and enduring the cold. :D :D

Oh, and your not allowed to complain about cold hands and feet while out there. Just work a little harder. ;D  :D :D

[chep]

hey ff
I have left Finland and now in the balmy -26 degree climate in Estonia... Anyhow, I spent my last days in a little town called Lappi, with a real cool dude. His name is Jarkko and he owns about 105 hectares of field and forest. He let me stay in one of his cabins for a few nights for some felling work. Ended up being a blast, be cut a bunch of scotch pine and then worked TSI on a birch pole stand. All in all it was an excellent way to get some info from the horses mouth.
Among other insight gained, the biggest point he made to me was that there is no property tax in Finland. I think that is excellent. It seems that much mismanagement comes from trying to squeee dollars off of your property to pay taxes. You are seemingly punished for waiting to cut timber in the states. In finland it was not so. People take a lot of pride in their forests and a ot of pride in working their forests by themselves and withtheir children.
Finland is a very cool country and I can recomend anyone to visit. I cant wait to go back.  Finns come off a little cold, but once they warm up to you they are a lot of fun.
Brendon you are lucky to be in such a situation, make the most of it
regards
chep

[BrandonTN]

Hey chep, so no property tax, eh? They do however pay a lot in income tax. Finland is a more "socialist" kind of economy/government than US. I've heard they pay around 30% income tax. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'd like to see how much forest land costs by the hectare around here.

PA Faller, judging by the high prices of everything here in Finland, I'd say they're doing pretty darn good. :P ...talk about some jacked up prices, jeez!!!!  : For what it's worth, I think Nokia cell phones and exporting timber and forestry machinery are some big components of Finland's economy. Not sure how the Nordic countries are doing in general though compared to the rest of the world.

And Ron, speaking of sauna....  ;D  Today I went sauna/ice swimming for the first time. More like ice dipping...in the right back out!!!! Crazy.  ;)

I'll try to get some pics up when (if) I can get time away from these European college girls.  ;D

Btw, I'm not going back home for Christmas....too expensive flight. Fortunately, I know a wonderful finnish family I'm gonna spend Christmas eve and day with. And on the 27th my brother is flying over here...we are gonna go to Stockholm, Paris and London...all within 8 days. So, we'll see how it goes. :D

I'm actually so far kind of disappointed in my forestry studies here, on my part and the school's. I know it's a bit much to ask, and I know it's impractical, but I miss having a native English speaking teacher...the language barrier has been a struggle. The professors don't improvise b/c they are nervous speaking English...so they just read their powerpoints during the lectures. Also, the majority of my classmates are not specifically forestry majors; most are agriculture, env sci, biology, or whatever else. So, I miss having that singleness of purpose kind of enthusiasm that I had back home at the forestry dept. That's the school's part. As for my part...    Well, I've focused more on socializing with other international students and traveling around than I have been involved with forestry.

We'll see what next semester brings.

Merry Christmas, y'all!

[ibseeker]

Focus on your priorities, Brandon!
You will only be young for a little while, at least your body will be, but those trees will still be there when you and all those beautiful young European college students are old and gray.

I am jealous. 

[Mooseherder]

Girls.......Trees ???
Girls........Trees ???

Sorry Trees.  Girls rule. smiley_really_happy
At you age trees can't see through the forest and that's okay.  Girls come first.

[SwampDonkey]

You never found the ones hiding in the woods?  :D