American Tree Farm Question

Jeff · December 26, 2009, 09:45:02 AM

With the American tree farm system, are you expected to do a timber harvest at some point? Or under their guidelines can you manage for other purposes?

Magicman · December 26, 2009, 11:46:30 AM

In a word.....NO. There are no requirements for you to do anything. You make your own management plan. You are free to change it at your will. The forester will offer guidance and opinions. Making field visits with the forester, really expanded my thinking. That was professional help that I would never have gotten otherwise.

SPIKER · December 27, 2009, 10:12:56 AM

there are several different programs that you can get into, it all depends on the place you live and the local tax man...
here there is a few requirements that you one be in some sort of management plan. (good thing) that this plan be administered by someone who has some knowledge (usually state forester as they are paid by state you dont pay them.) and that you follow the plan. I had to do some thinning of the standing pines and they got me free plantings (5000) trees of different types. I been there about 8 years now. I have to report yearly on what I have sold if anything and what plantings I have in the ground...
I had a 2 year followup with the forester and sent him email checkup for a while but never heard back so he may no longer be there?

Mark

Ron Scott · December 27, 2009, 03:21:49 PM

You manage your property to meet your objectives as determined by an approved management plan. If timber harvesting is not an objective, you aren't expected to do a timber harvest.

Jeff · December 27, 2009, 05:08:39 PM

Ron, since you are my Forester, do you think I would benefit in any manor by joining?

Ron Scott · December 27, 2009, 07:43:52 PM

The only benefits are those that come with being a member such as a certificate, attractive sign, magazine, and some forestry assistance in following your management plan.

You might also want to consider membership in the Michigan Forest Association.

Ron Wenrich · December 28, 2009, 05:44:37 AM

I started to look around on how the Tree Farm system is faring in PA. There are no links to it, other than to say to contact the state director.

When I was an inspector, it was run by the PA Forestry Assn. The PFA still runs the program, but it is overshadowed by the PA Stewardship program. There is only a casual mention of the Tree Farm system on the PFA website.

There's a couple of reasons I think this has happened. There's no push from industry for the Tree Farm system. It used to be that the paper companies were the big push, but all of them have left the state except for one or two. Pulpwood is no big deal.

Penn State has gotten behind the Stewardship program. They run the extension program, and have country foresters (if there are any). They have set up landowner organizations and that is at a shotgun approach where only a few counties have groups.

Industry is also behind the stewardship program by requiring the loggers to take some courses on good logging techniques. While I support the logging certificate, I kind of draw the line when they offer a course for the loggers on "how to buy timber". Lets learn the basics on growing timber first.

I would give the stewardship program a little more credibility if they certified the foresters, which they don't. When I was doing inspection work, many consultants used the Tree Farm roles as a way to troll for work.

The Tree Farm system may be working great in other states, but I haven't seen too much in PA and have heard even less.

Jeff · December 28, 2009, 07:47:02 AM

The Michigan Tree Farm Website to me was always pretty dismal, I see it is now completely gone. The domain name is not even owned by the organization, but by a web hosting company, but I think that is the way it always was. I know several years ago my brother-in-law tried repeatedly to get his 40 down the road from my land into the program, and never could get any sort of reply back from them and eventually gave up.

SwampDonkey · December 28, 2009, 07:57:09 AM

They have been pushing a "Tree Farm" type system here for the last few years. And your right, the pulp industry was behind it. They were pushing it because they have all their forests certified to satisfy some of their larger customers like Time Warner. With a lot of players in the pulp industry gone and markets being flat the momentum has gone. There weren't many taking it up anyway, only a few hobbyists and retirees with small lots and with monetary incentives for as many participants as there was money to support and entice them. A few got little stories written up in magazines and newsletters, but never really did much to entice the masses. Some organizations were or are using the program as a carrot on a stick to access markets and assistance programs. I've never seen that approach work for the average woodlot owner. You beat me with that stick and I'll resist even harder. I don't think the local association can take me to many certified lots. I know for a fact that there is no one there that is going to push for it too hard. They haven't the resources to carry it far for starters. Government has taken away extension services from woodlot owners and left an information gathering organization that very few know about or even tap into. Not to mention the fact that most traditional woodlot owners are an independent lot. The fact that there are pretty much no consulting businesses; mostly loggers, truckers, contractors and marketing boards, pretty much speaks for itself. They are pushing the marketing end a lot harder than the management. That's what pays the bills, volume of wood sales. ;)

woodtroll · December 28, 2009, 10:56:41 AM

Tree Farmer can be a good thing. But it is a landowner group on the local level started by big timber companies (think Big W). If they are not involved not much happens. At minimum it is a magazine that has some helpful info. I like how they try to give info and push for passing the forest to the next generation.
Local tree farmer groups can also have field days, see what the other guy is doing in his wood type of thing. There always seems to be a little input from the state or county foresters depending on their interest.
At best it is a new and easy way to certify your forest as green. For what that is worth.

Ron Scott · December 28, 2009, 11:17:29 AM

Michigan, pretty much follows the National system information and direction.

http://www.treefarmsystem.org/

Phorester · January 12, 2010, 10:09:52 AM

The American Tree Farm System (ATF) originally started out in the 1940's by forest industry to recgonize private and industrial landowners who did a better than average job in managing their woodlands. So for several decades it was an award for doing good things in your woods. In the last few years it has also evolved into a forest certification program. Timber cut from a certified Tree Farm is considered to be certified wood.

I'm capatalizing Tree Farm to indicate this program, not just that somebody says they have a tree farm because they own woodland.

At least one pulpwood company in VA pays landowners more for their pulpwood if they are a certified Tree Farm, because it is Certified Wood. So it literally pays a landowner to be a Tree Farmer.

Tom · January 12, 2010, 11:36:07 AM

The other side of the coin is, what is the difference in the certified wood that have a pulpwood company paying more for it?

Texas Ranger · January 12, 2010, 12:05:29 PM

Tom, a reward for trying to be a good steward of the land? In Texas, the Tree Farm Association is one source of proof of being a working investment, rather than a hobby. At least the landowner sees something on forestry a couple of times a year, if they pay any attention, that is.

Tom · January 12, 2010, 01:14:30 PM

But isn't there a fee associated with that acknowledgement? I don't understand why "being a hobby" would be bad.

SwampDonkey · January 12, 2010, 04:12:11 PM

Certified forest hasn't meant higher prices up here, in fact the ones pushing it said it's not about price it's about doing the right thing to begin with. Currently there wouldn't be 1% of small private woodlots certified. Those that are, are on a trial basis with marketing boards to see what can be worked out for the woodlot owner without paying large sums of money and paperwork to become and remain certified. A good many of these certification schemes is just paperwork and someone comes verify what's one paper with reality. They are looking as a Canada wide certification for woodlots, and the Tree Farm system has been considered. I don't here anything about it now since so many mills closed and markets shut. All I see are annual woodlot owner of the year awards of which I have not seen our local board elect a single person for the award for 8 years or more. They aren't providing the services to the level I was involved with over the years there. There doesn't seem to be much involvement or newsletters being written unless it's a select few, you never hear much.

WDH · January 12, 2010, 08:06:42 PM

Quote from: Tom on January 12, 2010, 01:14:30 PM
But isn't there a fee associated with that acknowledgement? I don't understand why "being a hobby" would be bad.

No fee.

Phorester · January 12, 2010, 10:37:25 PM

"The other side of the coin is, what is the difference in the certified wood that have a pulpwood company paying more for it?" Physically, none.

It's the entire idea of forest certification itself. I've been told that some of this paper company's customers are only buying paper from companies that can offer paper and paper products made from certified wood. That's their marketing ploy, to advertise themselves as "green" and environmentally sensitive, blah, blah, blah. So this company, NewPage Corp., is willing to pay more for pulpwood from landowners whose lands are in a forest certification program, and the Tree Farm System is one. And it's free for the landowners, as WDH says.

WDH · January 12, 2010, 10:47:25 PM

When I sold a first thinning about a year ago, I saw where the buyer, a large pulpmill, was putting an emphasis on tracking the amount of certified wood that they were buying. It was more of an information collection thing, maybe a prerequisite to focusing on buying a certain amount of certified wood. I know this buyer very well, and I told him that my wood was certified through the Tree Farm System, and would he pay more for certified wood. He raised the price by $.25/ton. He might have raised the price anyway if I had asked, but anyway, I chalked the extra quarter to the certification. That is not much, but it is better than nothing. On the 2000 tons I expect to harvest in total, that is an extra $500. Every little but helps

.

Ron Wenrich · January 13, 2010, 05:51:15 AM

What portion of the wood is needed to be certified for the end product to be called certified? I know its not 100%, but it always seemed to be a pretty small number.

The state of PA has 2 million acres of certified forest. I have yet to see the buyer of veneer, logs, lumber, pulpwood or firewood that has said they were interested in certified wood.

I've always said that if you certify the practitioners, then you'll have certified products. We don't need to certify any acreage as long as the guy doing the work is working within the certification guidelines. Sure is a lot easier than inspecting land.

SwampDonkey · January 13, 2010, 06:08:18 AM

Still need to inspect a certain % of the land base to see if they are following their certification. If nothing else I guess, call it part of a peer review of the member. In BC, RPF's get peer reviewed every 3 years. How many associations elsewhere do that? Most of them seem like it's just a written exam and your in, like getting a degree.

Ron Scott · January 13, 2010, 09:00:06 AM

One also has to have a "special certification" to be an auditor to certify forest lands.

Tom · January 13, 2010, 11:40:45 AM

I belong to the Association and have my sign, but what y'all are describing is the very reason that I don't like the idea of certification. Words like peer review, audit, inspect, etc. are just other ways of saying that my land and trees aren't mine to do with as I want. Go to a row crop farm and tell the farmer that his corn field is not meeting muster because his planting distances don't match the social norm and he'll tell you to get off of his land.

There are good trees and bad trees. The product earns the price. Southern Yellow Pine is a crop that is made up of four species of pines. Some are better than the others for lumber. But when you saw it and present it to the retail customer, it is all SYP (Southern Yellow Pine). The Eco whackos don't even know the difference.

I appreciate all the opinions and suggestions I can get. I'll even be willing to hire some of them. But, Why should I have to have an organization verify that I'm a good guy and my farm meets there standards to be able to sell the product, when the product can't be separated from another farm on the other side of the county. It just sounds like more social manipulation to me. Everybody wants to be in control of everybody else's business.

I just don't understand why its the business of some sit-behind-the-desk-in-an-office business major whether I fertilize with commercial 6-6-6 or spread cow manure, whether I got my trees from a State nursery or a private one, or whether I manicure my lawn or let it grow likes it wants. The telling tale is going to be whether I produce a product that will do the job. If Lowes and Home Depot want to run from a bunch of namby pamby sign-carrying protesters, that's their business, but, as the saying goes, "An emergency on your part, doesn't necessarily mean an emergency on my part".

To people who live in a Society of Socialism, it may not make any difference. They are used to being told what to do. But, I will resist that with my every fiber.

Ron Scott · January 13, 2010, 04:01:33 PM

There are new standards as of Jan 1st. All Tree Farmers and inspectors need to be updated on them.

http://www.treefarmsystem.org/certification/AFF%202010%20to%202015%20Standards%20of%20Sustainability%20for%20Forest%20Certification.pdf

WDH · January 13, 2010, 05:05:23 PM

Tom, you make some good points, and I understand your position.

Certification generally focuses on assuring that the wood was produced with good sound proven management practices, especially as it relates to sedimentation, protecting water courses, properly placed and maintained roads, and the such.

Being non-certified does not mean that the producer is not following the Best Management Practices, only the they are not certified under the standard. It is mainly a big company thing, like IP, the Big W, GP, etc. It is their way of showing the customer that good stewardship is being practiced.

Is it necessary? Probably not for the most part in North America.