Helper on the sawmill ?

MWS · March 05, 2011, 08:48:43 AM

Ha guys what do you do for helpers on the sawmill as far as liability?

riverswamp sawyer · March 05, 2011, 10:35:12 AM

I run a one man show............till my wife gets home from work Then its she and me
She complains some but has not sued me yet..... ;D

riverswamp sawyer · March 05, 2011, 10:56:03 AM

And let me add......
She is pretty good help.......... AND a good cook !! ;D

pigman · March 05, 2011, 11:45:54 AM

I tell them that if they get blood on my mill to wipe it off quick so it won't stain the paint.

terrifictimbersllc · March 05, 2011, 11:50:40 AM

Quote from: MWS on March 05, 2011, 08:48:43 AM
Ha guys what do you do for helpers on the sawmill as far as liability?

helpers have enough liability of their own not necessary to add to it

Chuck White · March 05, 2011, 12:50:12 PM

I don't know, but I would suppose you could get liability insurance to cover them, OR if they had their own insurance, you could cover yourself by having them sign a contract which would let you off the hook, MAYBE!

Probably the best suggestion I could offer would be to supervise the helper closely and keep him out of potentially dangerous areas around the mill!

terrifictimbersllc · March 05, 2011, 01:25:06 PM

Sorry, seriously, what is your milling situation, portable on customer's property, or are you on your property, and is the helper your customer or not?

Magicman · March 05, 2011, 01:35:38 PM

The last paragraph on my Saw Contract that is always signed by both Me and the Customer. We each get a copy:

5. It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous. Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber. It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties. Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___

Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________

MWS · March 05, 2011, 03:09:47 PM

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on March 05, 2011, 01:25:06 PM
Sorry, seriously, what is your milling situation, portable on customer's property, or are you on your property, and is the helper your customer or not?

WELL MOST OF THE TIME I AM AT MY HOME BUT SOME PORTABLE WORK DOSE GAT DONE. THE HELPER COULD BE ETHER THE CUSTOMER OR JUST A HELPER.

Brian_Rhoad · March 05, 2011, 03:23:07 PM

If you are getting paid for the sawing the "helper" is an employee and all employee regulations apply.

isawlogs · March 05, 2011, 03:45:40 PM

Quote from: Brian_Rhoad on March 05, 2011, 03:23:07 PM
If you are getting paid for the sawing the "helper" is an employee and all employee regulations apply.

And how did this come to be so ??? Are you stating that when ever one is paid to do work the helper is always concidered an employee.... If that is the case, I am sure glad to be where I am to not have to deal with this, over and above the rest of the hogwash that needs be delt with.

terrifictimbersllc · March 05, 2011, 05:53:39 PM

Quote from: MWS on March 05, 2011, 03:09:47 PM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on March 05, 2011, 01:25:06 PM
Sorry, seriously, what is your milling situation, portable on customer's property, or are you on your property, and is the helper your customer or not?
WELL MOST OF THE TIME I AM AT MY HOME BUT SOME PORTABLE WORK DOSE GAT DONE. THE HELPER COULD BE ETHER THE CUSTOMER OR JUST A HELPER.

I use an agreement that reads almost exactly as Magicman provided above, pertaining to the customer and his helpers if any. I also have liability insurance which I believe will cover my business should the customer or his helper get hurt. I do not have my own helpers, I would regard that relationship as if my helper were my employee, and I have not yet purchased insurance to cover employees. My insurance rate would be almost double if I had one or more employees. The insurance I have does not cover injury to me. That would be under my own medical insurance. Pretty sure if I covered one or more employees under my liability policy then that would provide payments for injury to them as well as cover the consequences of their actions when in my employ. I guess I would recommend absolutely that you don't allow helpers on your behalf if they don't have their own medical insurance. And second that you make sure you are insured for their injury as well as for their actions while helping you for which you may be held responsible. In my case I relied on discussion with a very helpful independent insurance agent.

Jeff · March 05, 2011, 06:28:49 PM

Quote from: Brian_Rhoad on March 05, 2011, 03:23:07 PM
If you are getting paid for the sawing the "helper" is an employee and all employee regulations apply.

I don't think so. Depends on who is supplying the helper.

WH_Conley · March 05, 2011, 07:21:00 PM

The helper would be the employee of whoever was paying him.

sigidi · March 05, 2011, 07:29:35 PM

My point of view on it is if you are paying the helper, then he/she becomes an employee, admittedly I'm down under and it's not a 'legal' standpoint but just my views

Magicman · March 05, 2011, 07:49:56 PM

My situation is very simple. I do not provide help, paid or otherwise. It's the customer's responsibility to either do it himself or provide help. That fact coupled with my signed contract, I'm just really not worried about it.

sigidi · March 05, 2011, 08:04:41 PM

Magic we don't tend to have 'contracts' down here, just good old fashioned handshakes lookin a fella in the eye. Although much the same on everythin else, I operate myself if the customer helps it's up to him, if customer has someone help it's up to then. I warn them of issues they may come across, but leave it at that ;)

Brian_Rhoad · March 05, 2011, 08:35:00 PM

I asked an insurance agent, an accountant and a federal auditor and they all gave me the same answer. If you are getting paid to do a job, anyone who helps you is to be treated as an employee. They can be a subcontrator, but you better have paperwork to prove it.

I don't know why people think sawmilling is different than other jobs. Can you "help" the mechanic repair your car? Does the plumber let you "help" repair a leaky pipe?

Jeff · March 05, 2011, 08:42:56 PM

They are all wrong then. Case in point. Ron Wenrich is a contracted sawyer for the mill at which he now saws. What they are saying is that all of the guys working around Ron loading logs and stacking lumber are his employee's? Bull Puckey. Clearly you are asking people that don't know what they are talking about.

If I take my mill to Joe Land Owner, and he provides man power to swamp lumber, that help is working for Joe Land Owner, not for me.

Quote from: Brian_Rhoad on March 05, 2011, 08:35:00 PM

I don't know why people think sawmilling is different than other jobs. Can you "help" the mechanic repair your car? Does the plumber let you "help" repair a leaky pipe?

Both professions you quote are regulated and state licensing is required. Not applicable.

Magicman · March 05, 2011, 09:27:09 PM

In 2002, when I formed an LLC for my company, I showed my attorney my contract. He read it and stated that when my customer signed that, I had no legal worries. He put a copy of it in my file that he retains. He did suggest that I always have it signed, no matter who the customer was. That establishes a legal pattern.

Sigidi, I understand a handshake and mine is my bond. I also understand that when money or a possible injury is involved, some folks may have selective memory.

The contract also serves as a checklist to be sure that the customer understands and I don't forget to cover all of the sawing and billing details. Business is business.

Brian_Rhoad · March 05, 2011, 09:59:28 PM

I'm only repeating what I was told by 3 people who should know what the rules are.

As far as Ron, I think he would be a subcontractor and the guys helping him work for the company Ron is subcontracted to.

Mechanics here in PA don't need a license to repair a vehicle. They need a State Inspectrion License to inspect a vehicle but not to repair it.

Plumbers were'nt required to have a license until about 2 years ago. I think the company needs to be registered but the individual worker does not need a license.

I asked if I don't pay a helper,(the owner of the logs) if that makes any difference. I was told that as long as I was getting paid to do the job the helper was an employee unless there was paperwork to show them as a subcontractor.

I asked how I would figure out the deductions and other paperwork if I don't pay the helper. I was told to use the hours worked times at least the minimum wage at the time. It didn't matter that I didn't pay the helper, the government stilll wanted their money.

weisyboy · March 05, 2011, 10:21:53 PM

in australia if you employ someone you have to have "workers compensation insurance" witch in QLD is run by the government.

im just sorting my stuff otu now. for sawmilling/logging it is about 6% of wages.

i am not covered by my workers compensation because im self employed, and i have public liability insurace to cover everyone else around the place

pnyberg · March 05, 2011, 10:22:54 PM

I just had a short conversation with my wife on this subject. She's worked for the Connecticut Labor Department for 35 years. Her response was that if there was no payment, there was no condition of employment.

Beyond that, there are clearly situations where there is payment without creating a condition of employment. When I hire a plumber or electrician or landscaper to do work around my house, they do not become my employees even though I pay them. Licensing has nothing to do with it.

I can't say that I've ever helped my car mechanic. But I have helped a plumber, and the guy who installed my kitchen counter tops. The idea that this made me their employee seems pretty dubious. I never got a W2 from either.

But, I think this is all quite beside the point on the question of liability. If someone gets injured near your sawmill, and there's a lawyer within 1000 miles, the question of liability is likely to come up. Details about whether or not the injured party should or should not be considered an employee is likely to be a minor part of this discussion.

I am not a lawyer.

--Peter

Jeff · March 05, 2011, 10:23:29 PM

Brian_Rhoad, The people you asked are idiots. A sub contractor is one step down from contractor. These guys need to go back to school.

When a land owner hires a mill and a sawyer, the sawyer is contracted labor and the sawmill a tool of his trade. They are not subcontracted. Subcontracted is when the contracted labor then hires under him. If he supplies the helper, then they are under his employ, if the landowner supplies the help, then they are under his employ. Equal to that of the sawyer and his mill, not underneath.

Jeff · March 05, 2011, 10:31:17 PM

I want to add as well, I am not saying that if someone gets hurt around the sawmill, that there may not be a liability issue in some form or other. That's not what I am addressing. I'm disputing the point made that the helpers ARE the sawyers employees in every case. Not so, no way.