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Bandsaw vs circular

Started by Mainecoast, September 20, 2021, 11:21:57 AM

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Mainecoast


So, I bought a 1986 mighty mite. It's seems cool and takes a big band. After owning it and tinkering and learning more I'm thinking circular saws are better? I'm sure they are great for certain things. But I have a friend with a lane #2 and he just changes out teeth now and again. Sure the kerf is a big waste. But come on changing bands every hour or every other tree? I didn't realize what was involved. And I'm not saying they are good for nothing. I'm doubting I'll find a
Portable dimension saw or portable circular mill..but I'll probably end up with a more stationary mill. I could probably ask a few old timers who are done sawing and pick one up for a few thousand. Just thinking I might sell the band mill now that I have it going. Turn a profit and just wait for a lane or other type to come up. 

Anyone have similar thoughts?

moodnacreek

As far as the kerf savings it's not always what is said. Where does the sawdust come from? If it's from the 4 slabs then it came from them so no loss there. Sawing timbers it hardly matters but sawing high grade 1" boards to be planed it does.  The fact is that the more saw you have the faster and longer you will run. And the uglier logs you can saw through straight.  Also a sawmill with a carriage delivers slabs and lumber down stream. 

ButchC

What is ideal depends on many factors. All of the non portable mills near me (many!) run a circular head saw, a band resaw and a circular edger. If portable doing it all on one saw has big advantages. As the prior reply stated kerf loss is far from a simple "x" wide vs "x" wide equation. I have a Peterson swing mill which works well in my situation. Lots of portable band mills running around here and all that are serious have went full hydraulic. Personally, at my age  I would quit sawing before using a manual bandmilll for anything other than hobby cutting.
Peterson JP swing mill
Morbark chipper
Shop built firewood processor
Case W11B
Many chainsaws, axes, hatchets,mauls,
Antique tractors and engines, machine shop,wife, dog,,,,,that's about it.

47sawdust

There is a Lane mill for sale here on the forum in Northern Maine. Take a look. It's pretty sweet.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

handhewn

Having run a 60" circular, a wood mizer, and a mobile dimension (all three mobile), for years each, I can say that I cut way more bd. ft. per day with the 60" circle saw than with the wood mizer or mobile dimension. However, the wood mizer cut more accurately and with way less sawdust and way less weight or moving parts thus way less upkeep. I could cut huge dia. (5'+) logs with the mobile dimension. It cut accurately and fairly quickly using even less moving parts and weight. Every mill has it's advantages and or disadvantages given your circumstances. I personally like my 60" for hardwood as its associated hydraulics are wonderful such that I can easily rotate a large nasty log (in either direction) very quickly. it will pick it up, shift it left or right, or pick up either end to insert shims. Like it or not it is more work to move, maintain, operate, etc. You bring logs to this type mill where you can easily take the WM or MD to the logs. If you take logs to your mill you need even more equipment/trucks/trailers, etc.
    Now that I am thinking more about this, it occurs to me I can' really run the 60" near capacity without at least three people, whereas with the MD or Wm saws I could stack/clean/ sticker, etc. myself and keep up.
   

Osterman.r

Keep the old circulars Mills alive!!!

Mainecoast

So I realize one user states that it costs more to keep the circular saws operating and takes multiple people to do so. I'm mostly interested in sawing timber's and rough sawn boards for sheathing. I can always cut nice cabinet/trim hardwood, sticker it and plane and joint it myself. I buy wood from an older friend of mine who has a circular saw. 

I do really like the ease of the bandsaw mill but I really hate the idea of disposable blades...if I had three circular blades with a few
Boxes of teeth set aside I could cut for a lifetime of careful right? 

Maybe I'll keep the band mill and just look for an inexpensive circular that I'd have to put together. So they need a foundation and dedicated building right?

The guy in northern maine does have a nice set up and it's not to far from me. But no way I could get his and keep mine due to price. 

Ron Wenrich

I'll put in the disclaimer that I've only sawn on a circular mill, both automatic and hand.  But, I have had the opportunity to look at the small bands and the swing blade circle mills.

A lot depends on how much you'll be using them.  You can buy a hand circle mill for a lot less than a band mill.  Its best to have a decent base for the mill, but I've seen one that was mounted on a flat bed trailer, which made it "portable" and made it easier to maintain the foundation.  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=25668.msg366765#msg366765 is an example.

A designated building would be nice, but the most important is to keep the saw and husk covered.  A building allows for use in bad or hot weather.  The sun can give fits to a circle saw, so its best to keep it off of the saw, or limit your days to cloud cover.

The big difference is the speed of cutting.  On a hand mill, cutting 4/4 lumber and blocking, I was able to easily cut a trailer load of logs a day, with some extra help off loading.  Does the bit of extra yield in a band saw offset the time saved?  Depends on your outlook.

Saw costs can be a bigger factor.  Saw maintenance is a little bit higher on the circle saw due to filing the saw.  It doesn't take all that long, but it does take some practice to get it right.  In barked hardwood logs, a set of teeth ran me about 35 Mbf (thousand bd ft).  Some guy stretch the teeth further than what I did as production was more of a goal.  Debarked logs would double the life span.  New teeth are in the range of $1.50 per tooth.  A 50 tooth saw will cost $75 for the teeth, which comes out to about $2.15/Mbf.  You'll have some associated file costs and an occasional saw hammering, but that wouldn't raise the costs too much.  Shanks also have to be replaced, but I got several million of feet of cutting on a set before they got too thin for my satisfaction. 

There's also the factor of hitting trash metal.  I've hit my share.  Unless it's really big, you won't destroy your saw.  For nails, you'll bung up a few teeth.  I always had some spares that I could use as replacement for the really bad hits.  For the minor damage, I could file them out so they would cut good again.   The cost for hitting metal is usually your time to do a minor repair job on the teeth.

I have no experience with the small band mills and blade costs.  Talking with a few of the operators I get the feeling that band costs are quite a bit higher than on the circle mill.  You have to make the choice which is right for you.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

longtime lurker

I think there's no one size fits all answer to this.

Everything comes back to your log resource: size, grade, species, and quantity. Size rules in or out various configurations, most mill designs have a sweet spot and anything outside that size range is anywhere from difficult to impossible. Grade and species determine your market, and that also affects equipment choices... a Scragg mill isn't the best choice for processing veneer grade walnut but is awful effective in tie logs. Quantity relates to scale... How much mill you need for the job. There's a few second hand chipper canters floating around quite cheap... all you need is 10 trailers of log the right size a day to feed one.

It's never just band vs circle, it's about the most effective and efficient way to process 80% of your logs into product. Mills that can do that survive downturns and thrive in booms. Mills that can't go under.

I like circle saws, got a dimension mill and a small circle gang.  But right now I'm installing a band resaw, because my log resource is changing and that means my product mix has to change... the gangsaw won't cut deep enough and isn't really suitable for chasing grade where you're maybe chasing 5/4 jacket boards and blocking or other low grade product near the heart. And chasing 4/4 lumber with 3/8" teeth on the headsaw is an inefficient way to do business.

Look at your logs, figure it back from there.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

The resource, that is the wood coming in determines  the machines to process it if you have a choice.  An inch and a half band will not do well in frozen, barked hickory.                    My circle sawn rough lumber has become a niche .  But I hate sawing small e.r. cedar into boards this way.  That one board per log lost to sawdust hurts.

YellowHammer

I agree, changing bands every hour would be a pain, but I've never had to do that unless I hit metal.  For example, for me, I wouldn't want a circular mill because I often saw very high value logs, alone, and I can do things with a log and sawing patterns that I don't think I could do with a circle mill.  Maybe, maybe not.

I can mill a thousand bdft per hour, generally, sawing alone, but just call it 750 per hour sawing by myself.  I've filmed sawing by myself on the Tube, and I was on the last log of the day, so it wasn't staged, it was just sawing.  I've never sawn with a 3 man crew helping on this particular mill, but it would be pretty mean.  I pay $32 per band, and considering I saw very few boards that sell for less than that, some way more, the kerf savings alone will pay for a new band every 10 boards vs kerf waste of a circle mill.

That being said, it would be cool to own one.  I used to look for them, but could never find one that was not just a wreck.  However, I couldn't see myself putting an $800 white oak log or a $1,500 walnut log on it.        
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Mainecoast

I wonder if there is profit in sawing lumber like that in northern maine/costal Maine? We have red oak, birch, ash, maple, pine, spruce, fir...I'm sure there are a few I'm missing but I'd assume you'd need a kiln and more to make it a business. 

I'm a builder now and planning on having a mill to cut speciality items and stuff for our family. I'd be open to switching careers in to more of a solo logging/sawing operation/timber framing. Any input on this? All the circular vs bandsaw has been very helpful! 

Ron Wenrich

I had a client that started out cutting firewood.  He had a wood stove shop, and wanted to branch out.  I sold him a sale of topwood, and got him to invest in a decent skidder instead of the loader he was using in the woods.

He started to buy pulp sales from the state, and I did some timber cutting when timber sales were real weak back in the 70s.  I showed him how he could make better money on some of the sawtimber sized wood by selling logs instead of processing firewood.

Next thing he did was buy a circle mill and started to make pallets.  Before long, he started to keep his better grade in ash and oak.  They were the popular species at the time.  Next thing he did was put in a small kiln.  He started to sell flooring, and before long was making custom doors and windows.  He and his son had a 2 man show and were always busy. 

You have to let the markets take you to what is available.  Match logs to markets.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Mainecoast

I love being outdoors and cutting. But I've never done it for money. I wonder if I should just do the sawing on my own and build cabinets, windows and doors. I built custom cabinets and doors for years. One older guy and myself did it all from architecture plans to shipping them off to be painted. 

Might be wise to stick to my skill set but I did read about a guy and his sons who only circular saw white pine and cut timber frames...only pine and he mills all the timber's. I'm pretty sure they're down in Mass

longtime lurker

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on September 21, 2021, 03:36:06 PM


You have to let the markets take you to what is available.  Match logs to markets.
Guess my take has always been the opposite... I cut everything from high grade cabinet and joinery logs to trash that barely makes dunnage.

I just saw them all. I had this vision of being a niche provider but log availability and cash flow demands meant I took what I could get and made from it what I could. And I became the go to guy for everything along the way. So this week I'm cutting framing, flooring and decking feedstock, cabinet grade material, and dunnage. And I've got logs suit all of the above, and a lot of stock, and about 15 running packs in 3 species at any one time (which is the nightmare part of it)
As a business model it's not ideal, but it has got me this far.

Downside is I have a lot of $ tied up in logs and stock, and my equipment list is not optimised so it can cover a lot of variables. The dimension mill as headsaw is super flexible, but does nothing particularly fast.

 Upside is because I buy pretty much anything I usually have a good supply of log ( though I can have $50k of log in the yard and nothing to cut an order like the last month) and I never have to chase a market, or get caught short when a particular market tanks. And I find that customers find me... the guy that wanted bridge decking for the farm last year is back next week for timber for a house extension or new kitchen cabinets.

I am trying to get back to that original vision, which looks similar to YH's operation. But modified, because the market reality and my bank balance means that a couple days a week of logs into ready cash means the bills are paid on time. I remember scratching in the ashtray for change to get a loaf of bread with ΒΌ million dollars worth of high grade cabinet timber in stock during the GFC when it wouldn't sell except at cents on the dollar. Now I still have the same dollar amount in stock, but across that many markets that something sells every day.

I'm not really sure if I did something really smart or really dumb. My life is hectic, disorganised, and the phone never stops.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

So many situations sawing logs and selling the lumber. It not only depends on where you are but what is badly wanted and the customer will pay too much for. After all these years of struggling and flirting with failure I have 2 customers [yeah double or nothin] who will take about all the locust: 4x4x8, 2x6 or 2x8x 6foot + I can do. No sticks, no end trim, forked on their trailer, $ 1.90 bd. ft.     I am sawing all I can find, much of it firewood.  I hate selling all I have and running out and loosing these very special customers.

Magicman

I would love to have a band saw that would make circle saw marks on boards.  8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Bruno of NH

I saw all day with myself and 2 helpers on a band mill.
I use 2 bands a day unless I hit metal or run older bands.
Some bands have 5 to 8 sharpenings on them. 
I saw softwood and hardwood.
Most hardwood I saw the bands last as long as they do in softwood.
I do like the look of circle sawn wood. Some day I will add a swing mill but it will be auto .
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longtime lurker

Quote from: Magicman on September 21, 2021, 07:22:50 PM
I would love to have a band saw that would make circle saw marks on boards.  8)
I remember seeing someone (D&L maybe) were doing a swingmill or dimension mill on a hydraulic bandmill type trailer. Dunno about the mill itself, but the idea made a lot of sense
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

Once herd an interesting story about a thin kerf band mounted on a circle saw husk that could be swung  somehow in the saw line to saw boards . The idea was to be able to saw with either the circle or the band with the circle carriage.  I was told it [the band] would not take abuse. I think it was Brewer who sold a 3" headsaw to replace your circle saw husk. Always wondered how that worked out.

longtime lurker

I remember looking at the Brewco  2" band headrig on their website a few years back then it wasn't there anymore - figured it maybe wasn't so crash hot so they stopped pushing it. Maybe in softwoods, but I just can't see it working in hardwood at circle mill feed speeds and standing up for long even with a 60HP motor spinning it..

Just get yourself a little sash gang resaw. I got all the paperwork on a nice little unit fit well behind a circle headrig for doing monotonous jobs like 4/4. I really looked hard at it rather than go for a multirip+ band resaw combo but it wasn't going to work as well as a multirip in the super dense eucalypt species, and you can't change sizes on the fly when you're chasing grade in the cabinet woods. But yeah... a super efficient little producer in the right job. Go on Doug, lash out, you only live once and he who dies with the most toys wins. ;D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

Laks something or other. A saw shop tried to sell those sash gangs, gotta be 25 years ago. I think they sold 2 and would you believe I met those owners.  One gave up and the other saws small n. white cedar with it yet. I really thought it would be right for me to stick and occasional cant in and walk away. But now I don't want small 1x boards and small logs anymore if I can help it.  The sawing machines that people use professionally can seem odd to those on the outside looking in. I know it did me.

handhewn

Yesterday I ran the first log (cedar) through the mill I'm re-building . As I should have expected, I hit metal right away. On my second pass I heard that unmistakable sound. I had just installed all new teeth in the 60" circular. I was dreading what damage the metal had done but much to my surprise and delight, I could not even tell the teeth had been touched. I would not have gotten away with a hard metal hit like that with the band saw. I was running the log through slowly as this was my second cut using this saw in 37? years and I was mostly observing how the saw was operating.

hacknchop

When I learned to saw I was taught to saw the best and the most out of a log as sawyer I was not even aware of what was needed to fill orders, in softwood we cut 4/4 till the grade dropped then we cut 8/4 as wide as the log would produce up to 12" that was on the head saw , the resaw operator usually had a list in hardwood anyway as to what to target not dimension wise but grade for instance in hard mpl they shipped a lot of 1&2 white in red oak it was a lot of sel&btr they also had a manufacturing grade called cabinet stock which was clear one side.
Then when I bought my own mill I could not afford to do saw that way i would fill orders with what logs I had cutting 2x6 out of logs that would have made 2x12 and then 2 weeks later struggle to fill an order of 2x12.???
Often wrong never indoubt

ButchC

Exactly, The advantages of a larger operation are many. I work as a fill in loader operator at 4 mills and this week they were cutting soft maple. At any one time they are filling special orders and standing orders. Down at the far end from the head saw there was guessing 20 carts at the grading station. There were units of both dark and light wood in 4/4 all higher quality wood and also 12/4 cants of lower the quality that goes to pallet mills. Each saw operator, the head saw, re saw and edger better know his wood and the orders. It's a lot different operation than a 1/2 man mill that is filling special orders. As it applies to the original question sawmilling is a large world and what works is determined by the scale of the operation and what market they serve.
Peterson JP swing mill
Morbark chipper
Shop built firewood processor
Case W11B
Many chainsaws, axes, hatchets,mauls,
Antique tractors and engines, machine shop,wife, dog,,,,,that's about it.

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