Mill rental

[yarnammurt]

Was thinking about doing a rental program on the mill like heavy equipment. A 4hr and 8hr option,  not a hourly charge.  Tank of fuel 4 blades and operator for 4 hours X amount.  And then 6 blades, fuel for 8 hours. That way the more prepared you are , and the more help you have the more return you get. 

You can't find help around here, so doing a hourly rate is a hard sell for some customers.  But if they can supply their own labor and be ready when I get there a big return can be had in amount milled. 

[btulloh]

Sounds like a different way to slice the same pie, but if it makes it more appealing to your customers then it's all good.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I think I have seen similar offers in passing when checking out other sawyer's websites. I can see where it would work as long as you provide the operator. I would never rent or loan my mill to anyone.

   Other considerations to address I would think would include mileage and damaged blades and such. I assume you are taking the mill to the customer's site. Address when the time starts - mill hours or/engine hours or actual time.

   Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

[esteadle]

I was gonna say yes, but i think no. You are pricing your services based on your expenses and costs, and making yourself vulnerable to devaluing your sawing skills. And sawing skills are really what you are selling.

> so doing a hourly rate is a hard sell for some customers

Can you explain that further? What's hard about the sell?

Why wouldn't they want to pay you what you are worth in terms of hourly rate? You are bringing a scare and special tool to perform a very specific job that is rarely available. You are also supplying a skilled operator of the equipment who is well versed in the tools usage and can maximize and efficiently create the desired result: lumber. Further, you are bringing a special skill in knowing not just how to saw but how to saw well, and how to achieve the most value for the lumber output. By the way, you are supplying fuel, oils, parts, and consumables, along with all maintenance costs. And did I mention transportation costs to get your mill there and back? That costs time, and fuel, and rubber. Oh, you will be acting as a consultant as well, when they ask you how to stack the lumber to dry and finish it so that they do not lose value if it warps, cups, and twists, as it dries.

[WV Sawmiller]

 ??? ??? ???

  I don't follow that.

  I have a minimum rate for any off site job which is about a half a normal days sawing. Its not worth my time to move the mill for less. Your rates just need to be figured so you are properly compensated for your time, experience, work and equipment. It sounds to me like you are just billing in bigger blocks of time than hourly.

 The better the customer is prepared and the better help he has the better value he gets. That is true whether he is paying by the day, hour or bf.

[dougtrr2]

I am a consumer, not a sawyer.  When I had my lumber milled I was perfectly happy with my sawyer's model - hourly rate, mileage and setup fee, and blade charge if metal was hit.  (Thanks Dpatton).  I had no idea how long it would take, but I did have plenty of help on hand.

Not really sure what the advantage is to your pricing plan over the one I experienced, but if it works for you, then great.  How will you handle it when the job goes over 4 hours or is way short of eight hours.  Be ready for the guy that complains he is paying for blades you never used, and conversely for the yard tree job that eats blades.  If someone is paying for each blade damaged, they may reconsider sawing up a log that keeps producing nails.  

Good luck,
Doug in SW IA

[terrifictimbersllc]

I'm not clear what you're proposing. It sounds like you are delivering the sawmill, but then what?

I have a 100% portable sawmill service. I run the sawmill and depend on the customers to arrange and roll logs,  and handle lumber and scraps. 

[Magicman]

I am very comfortable with my portable sawing business profile which eliminates/addresses the questions that dougtrr2 raised above.  90%+ of my sawing is bf rate, but it is my option to invoice either hourly or bf rate depending upon the job.

[mike dee]

At the end of the day I want sawed lumber not a saw operating experience!

I'd rather hire a guy with a good machine than rent for a half/full day trying to work out the quirks to get productivity and quality out of a job. If buddy can't cut a square piece of lumber at a reasonable rate he can go home. If I'm operating the machine it's all on me.

[terrifictimbersllc]

MM is that option in your agreement, how do you word it?

[yarnammurt]

At the end of the day I want sawed lumber not a saw operating experience!

I'd rather hire a guy with a good machine than rent for a half/full day trying to work out the quirks to get productivity and quality out of a job. If buddy can't cut a square piece of lumber at a reasonable rate he can go home. If I'm operating the machine it's all on me.

That's it, your not renting just a mill. You're getting mill and operator.  You supply all labor. 

[yarnammurt]

OK, hear me out. Labor here is nonexistent no one will work, even at $20 a hour your not getting anyone to pull/stack lumber or slabs. So a hourly rate is how I used do it, when you could get help . Now you are charging X amount  per hour but the amount of productivity is way down as a one man operation.  And you run into a small amount BF in a day for X amout of money that seams high for customers.  
This is a way for the customer to supply all support and labor. Y'all know pretty close to what your production is per hour, with good support help ( logs rolled on the loader without a wait, lumber pulled as it's cut no waiting,  slabs moved ect.) 

It puts production on the customer.  The more labor they supply the more product they get at the end of the day. 

When you tell people your hourly rate is X and $25+ hour for a helper they have a heart attack,. 

I know what I can cut with the boys at the house per hour.  So I have a good base rate for a half a day. I know how much fuel I will use, and yes a charge for messed up blades would be included.  It truly takes 20 minutes to set up and get ready to start milling. So the base rate would include every, travel,  fuel, setup. 

Just a different way to slice the pie.  And give the customer a little feel good. 

[yarnammurt]

I'm not clear what you're proposing. It sounds like you are delivering the sawmill, but then what?

I have a 100% portable sawmill service. I run the sawmill and depend on the customers to arrange and roll logs,  and handle lumber and scraps.

Delivery and operation.  I've owned and operated a mill for right at 10 years so know how is what you get but you supply everything else.  

[Magicman]

MM is that option in your agreement, how do you word it?

Dennis, it is an option on my agreement/contract and I decide which it will be after seeing the job.  There are times when we may agree on one option and as the sawing progresses, we may change to the other option. 

The bottom line is that the customer needs to get value and I have to make a profit.  I have never had a disagreement with a customer regarding any billing issues.

[Resonator]

I've had inquiries over the years of guys wanting to "rent" my mill. My answer: NO. Too much risk of it getting wrecked, then where am I at? Customers hire me to run my mill, and I charge by the hour to do so. That's as close to renting as I will get.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Yarnammurt-trigger warning when you use the word "rent" in connection with your sawmill it gives the idea that the customer will be running it  am thinking thats not what you mean. 

[bigblockyeti]

To the OP's proposition, I think it's just another way of slicing the same pie.  Being very transparent to interested customers could help prevent hard feelings.  I can see folks expecting you to show up, do everything and average 750bdft/hr.  There's much to go wrong with that if everything isn't laid out crystal clear as to what needs to happen before and when you're there.

I actually looked into renting an LT-40 back in 2019 for 6 months and found there were a few companies that would do something like that.  Basically, they buy the mill new and you rent from them, they'd likely sell it when I was done if they didn't have a new renter lined up.  The problem is it would have cost ~1/2 the price of buying a new LT40 just to rent for six months, they certainly had all their liabilities and then some covered.

[Stephen1]

You are not renting your mill. You are providing a service. It's just by the hour not by the bd. ft.
I am hourly, 4 hr minimum,  travel to and from, broken blades from hardware hits are plus $. 
I tell them,If they provide the labour, 2 people,  to pull lumber and Sticker, it saves them a lot of money. I'm $130 hr so pretty expensive labourer. I can bring a labourer buts its $35 hr from my yard. I tell everyone, I can saw from 500-3000 bd ft in a day. depends n the logs, the site, the labour.
If they want to slab the logs, I need 2 good helpers and or heavy equipment on site. 
I've never had anyone say they didn't' get enough Wood for their money. A lot of people call it quite around 4ish even if all the logs are not sawn. I have repeat customers going back 10 years now. 

[longtime lurker]

I see a value in it. People understand hours as a measure of time, board foot is some voodoo magic measuring system that they don't comprehend. Oh you can say it's this by this by this but E=mc²  and everyone knows that too.. but  the number of people that understand what that actually means is miniscule. Same with BF, the fact you can walk past a pile and say what's there doesn't mean anyone else can.

$/Hr or $/BF it's all the same at the end of the day and sawing on volume makes a man hustle but the average guy doesn't know this. When the clock is ticking and the saw is at idle he understands that the bill hasn't though and maybe it'll incline him to arrange some grunt labour to cut his own bill down.

Go for it. Nothing ventured nothing gained and it's not like you can't opt out of billing that way if it doesn't work. We're here to make money after all.

[WV Sawmiller]

  If they rent it for the day and you finish sooner you can always charge less and the customer will be  happy. I have done that on some jobs where the customer was nice, the logs were well laid out, good help, easy excess and maybe we did not meet the minimum so I'd charge less and I and the customer felt better about it.

   Renting equipment with an operator is a common industrial practice and I see no difference in this than charging by the hour except you are quoting in bigger blocks of time. 

   As I have said many times "All methods of charging are fair as long as both parties understand and agree before the job starts." 

   If you define an hour you have to clarify is that engine hour, time from when you arrive, or time from when you leave your house. If you say a half or whole day you will have to define that too. If you charge by the bf you will probably have to define that to them too.

[Magicman]

I don't have any trouble explaining the bf rate to customers.  Just give a few examples such as "a 12' 2X6 from the store is $8.79ea, and I'll saw it from your log for $5.10.  Ironically a 12' 1X6 from the store is $12.99ea and their coat is $2.55".  That is quite a savings and the board foot rate sells itself.

The customer can look at their cut list and have a very close estimate of the cost of the job.    

[bigblockyeti]

I don't have any trouble explaining the bf rate to customers.  Just give a few examples such as "a 12' 2X6 from the store is $8.79ea, and I'll saw it from your log for $5.10.  Ironically a 12' 1X6 from the store is $12.99ea and their coat is $2.55".  That is quite a savings and the board foot rate sells itself.

The customer can look at their cut list and have a very close estimate of the cost of the job.    

Yeah, but do you have to explain to them the difference between a 2×6 & a 1.5" × 5.5" board?

[Resonator]

Renting equipment with an operator is a common industrial practice

I worked many contract construction jobs as a truck driver. As soon as I was onsite, the main contactor I worked under dispatched where I went. They kept track of my hours I worked off a timecard that stated "rented equipment". I always considered myself as just part of the truck, like an important nut that held on a wheel.

[WV Sawmiller]

   We built the embassy in Haiti and rented a cement mixer truck that came with an operator, Bob (who of course we referred to as Bob the builder). The company said they had too much invested in the truck to have it damaged or destroyed by carless handling. 

   Bob was very knowledgeable and took good care of his equipment. We were having problems with our other cement truck getting it to pump cement high enough so they asked Bob to take a look and see if he could help. Bob looked at the truck and they had the pump running wide open. After just a couple minutes of observation he told them "Slow it down." They thought that was counter-intuitive since they needed to pump higher and harder but they did as he instructed and the cement immediately began to flow better and reached several more floors. Evidently our operators had it cavitating and were losing pressure and slowing it down allowed it to run as designed. 

   Sometimes renting equipment without an operator is penny wise and dollar foolish. 

[Magicman]

Yeah, but do you have to explain to them the difference between a 2×6 & a 1.5" × 5.5" board?

Why should I and why should/would that question even come up?  A store bought 2X6 is 1½"X5½" and so are mine. 

I have now completed 20 years of portable sawing and that question has never come up.  I stated above that I saw whatever is on the customer's cut list.