ranch entrance posts how to preserve in ground part?

[nancyk]

We would like to build a ranch entrance, the kind with 2 vertical posts and a horizontal. So far one option is  8x8 or 10x10 salt treated18 feet long. A 2nd option, more eco friendly, are some logs we have from recently completed trackhoe work on our land. I believe the trees are oak, they are straight and at least 10 inches in diameter, the usable portion is at least 20 feet. We also may have some poplar that are down. I know that poplar will not last as a post in the ground. Oak will last longer but I would prefer to not have to replace these posts in 10 years, as I hope to put a solar opening gate on them and I'd like this to be a one-time project.  It has been suggested to put cement around the posts as a stabilizer but cement around an untreated log will just help it to rot. Is there something I can put around the base(3 feet or so) of a log to slow down the rotting process? I read copper napthalene, or tar.
  I would like to be able to erect this ourselves, using my 73 hp tractor and bucket and am a bit concerned that the oak could be too heavy to erect the horizontal piece. It would be around 14 feet in the air. Not sure of the weight of the board if I got pressure treated. Natural logs, debarked, would be more attractive but if I went with the pressure treated I would let them sit for a while to loose some of their weight then I would rout the edges. Pros and cons to each, the wife would like to use the logs, she has even offered to drawknife them for the project.
 

[Jim_Rogers]

What type of oak is it?

Jim Rogers

[nancyk]

Hi Jim,
  Nancy here. I posted this for my husband. We just got back from a walk, looked at 6 nice red oak downed trees and had a brainstorm. Use 2 of the red oaks for verticals and a poplar as the horizontal. Once debarked(and the poplar would be easier than the oak in that respect) they would not look that different. And the rotting in the ground would only affect the uprights.

[thecfarm]

nancyk,welcome to the forum,both of you. Magicman did something like what you want. I really like that. I have my land logged about once every 10 years or so. The only way out of the woods in my drivway too. Would have to be high and wide. They sure do look good. Would look some nice with a sign high up saying The C Farm.

[Axe Handle Hound]

nancy- I can't give you a lot of insight on the preservation part of your question, but I would advise you to call you local Fire Dept and ask them about what you're up to.  There have been some cases where people put these structures up, but they didn't have proper clearance for the fire trucks that arrived after a fire broke out.  Consequently the trucks either didn't get to the burning structure or they had to waste precious time cutting down the entrance to get the trucks past.  Just a thought for your consideration. 

[beenthere]

Best to find some treated posts to put in the ground, or just plan to re-do in 10 years. Also, the poplar cross post may not last that long, or not much longer at best.

When materials are ready to erect the structure, hire a crane or appropriate lift to get it up safely rather than risk taking a shortcut. IMO

[nancyk]

"Best to find some treated posts to put in the ground"
This is my husbands thought. I, the wife, would prefer the oak upright w/log horizontal. If I thought the uprights would have to be replaced in 10 years, I would begrudgingly agree to the pressure treated. My husband would rout the edges of the 8x8's or 10x10's for a softer look. And I did mention to him getting the trackhoe back to set the horizontal, he grimaces when I say that.
  The poplar horizontal may not last?
  From what I have read, 14 foot clearance would be fine. All overpasses require 13'6". The cattleguard is 14 feet wide, so we would get a 14 or 16 ft gate.
  After 30 years of manually opening and closing the gate, having an automatic opener would be a treat. As our house is 1,700 feet from the gate we are looking into solar options.

[Brian_Weekley]

Use 2 of the red oaks for verticals and a poplar as the horizontal.

Unlike white oak, red oak is not rot resistant and it wouldn't be advisable to have it in contact with the ground.  You might want to consider setting the uprights on stone plinths, but you would need a way to anchor them.

[Brian_Weekley]

I was looking for this post--much smaller than a ranch gate, but he used nice blade brackets to attach the uprights to...

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60254.msg881387.html#msg881387

[petefrom bearswamp]

nancyk where are you located?
The ranch entrances I see in Colo and WY are usually Lodgepole pine or a fir and last many years.
Of course it is dry out there
pete

[SPIKER]

There are ways to make it last but GREEN LOGS will not take in much of the treatment as they are full of water now.   Type in google for treatment options of wood in ground contact.   In OLD days they would put the but end into a HOT COALS bonfire to CHAR the ends which will lower the ROT as well.   

I would maybe follow some of the on-line guides for it.  then maybe do a double or triple treating of the log ends that will be buried as well as a single/double treatment of horizontal log.   

I would make a couple benches to get the logs UP of the ground and out where you can Peel them and the let them set a year and Treat them.   When my Mail Box finally gave out I bought a Ground Contact rated 4x4, (Mailbox was still UP but really wimpy.) so I had some time.   I had a 6" PVC pipe 4' long drop from some project.   I slid a HD garbage Bag into the pipe and dropped the post into it and poured in used motor oil-diesel fuel mix with a copper sulphate pond treatment in and kept the post submerged in the mix to 3 feet.   It soaked up about a gallon of this mix.   That was 4 or 5 years ago and the post is solid as new.   I did same only used the garbage bag ONLY in 80's for mailbox post & last time I was by the post and box looked to be same one.   (Don't live there anymore.)

Below a few treatment links one from TBN and some info & ad stuff.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/52789-how-treat-home-sawed-lumber.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/dk0897.html

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREEN-Copper-Green-1-Gallon-Wood-Preservative-Copper1/100203025#.UnLPFhCzJuM

I know of some OLD Locust/Osage Orange fence posts that are older than I am and more solid than I am.   These were not treated with anything that I know of other than the hot fire coals and then a brushing of creosote   

   White Oak is more rot resistance then Red but Red is better than the Popular.   Regardless get them up and strip bark off ASAP if you want them as a project later.   You can maybe stand them up into a drum against the barn and fill drum full of treatment, if you have termites in area add a Borate Treatment to the mix.   Someone said about putting them up on a ROCK type foundations which is good too!.


Mark

[nancyk]

Well, thank you for all the informative posts, including links. I almost had my husband talked into the red oak uprights but it appears that may not be a great choice. I never thought about a green log not being absorbent as it is full of water but that is logical. We had a trackhoe here for three weeks, replacing metal culverts and doing a bit of tree clearing, widening a stream so it would not flood the driveway every spring. and fixing the gravel driveway from past damage. We are ready for a simple project, not a complicated one. It sounds as though this ranch entrance is more than we need to take on right now.
  I truly, again, thank everyone for their opinion. If not for you, I may have been draw-knifing some large trees in a few days. My back is sore just thinking about it.

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

Use pressure treated rated for ground contact to build a post stub to set in the ground and join the oak posts to the stubs above the ground. Set the treated stub in gravel in the hole to minimize the exposure of the pole to water.

If done right it will look good and last a long time.

Good Luck!

Be Careful!

Herb

[SwampDonkey]

nancyk,welcome to the forum,both of you. Magicman did something like what you want. I really like that. I have my land logged about once every 10 years or so. The only way out of the woods in my drivway too. Would have to be high and wide. They sure do look good. Would look some nice with a sign high up saying The C Farm.

A little story. A woodlot owner did some thinning of his woods. A good job was done like some of us all talk about on our woodlots. A TV crew did a little interview and a segment on woodlot management. The segment appears in 'Land and Sea'. I think I have the actual tape here buried in some loot. Anyway, before the show was taped, a nice big sign was erected at the road entrance on the back of the woodlot, which was along a paved road itself. The sign praises how well the woods is looked after on the lot. So here we have a big sign and a film crew coming for an interview. So that's all well and good. But....fast forward a small number of years, the owner has an expensive divorce. The woodlot becomes a target for cash settlement. The woodlot gets butchered. Sign's still there.  ;D

[LogsWoodallGood]

 I've been doing all kinds of construction for years and I've wondered about a solution to this for a while now, just haven't tried it yet. If anyone has, or plans to try this, let me know how it works out. If I try this soon I'll do the same.

  So here's what I'm thinking: when I work on a property of mine I always do everything myself, electricity, plumbing, etc. One material seems like it would be perfect for this job. Red guard. its used as a substitute for shower pan/lining on concrete floors in showers under tile work. It comes in like a liquid latex type consistency that you paint on basically. it dries quick and is EXTREMELY durable. Since it adheres well with concrete and can painted onto the part of the post to be buried, I figure just throw a few coats on the burying end of your beams, and then stick it straight into the wet cement. I doubt there would be any rot

If anyone knows a way to test this theory without having to wait 10 years for the evidence id love to try it out. who knows, i might have just helped out some seasoned framers ;)

- Pete

[beenthere]

Logs.........

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

I don't think the coating will keep the wood post from rotting. A better solution to the problem would be to bury the post in tamped gravel and use a wood that has some natural resistance to decay.

Do you have a species of wood in mind for your post?

[LogsWoodallGood]

ive never had the red guard fail for tile and stone work. It still allows the grip between the concrete and mortar, and even with weight and traffic, it stays waterproof. I would go out on a limb and bet money it would work as well for sealing wood to bond directly into concrete.  If i decide to try it, it will probably be with an excess of small diameter logs i don't find another use for, to build an extended oriental style walkway. that boxes in and surrounds a garden and possible water feature.

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, LogsWoodallGood.

As good as your idea sounds, it will not work.  The wood would absorb moisture and the post/poles would rot off just below ground level.  Utility companies which erect and maintain hundreds of thousands of treated poles have tried every trick imaginable to prevent pole rot.  It is not a simple task.

[Jeff]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, LogsWoodallGood.

As good as your idea sounds, it will not work.

Ditto.

Your sealer may even speed the decay process by confining moisture within the wood.

[SwampDonkey]

The water will even migrate from other untreated areas where it is wetter to that encased wood. Save your money. ;D

[Thehardway]

The two things to concern yourself with when trying to preserve a wood product in the ground are Fungus and Insects. 

Some treatments that are good for repelling insects do nothing to prevent fungus and those that prevent fungus may or may not prevent insect infestation.

Petroleum based products usually inhibit both fungus and insects but many are reluctant to use them and in many cases they are not approved for use as a wood preservative by homeowners. (this doesn't mean they won't work)

Power companies use  poles with a variety of treatment chemicals based on the specified use and the type of wood being used.  Two of the primary preservatives they use are Penta in a oil solution (similar to #2 diesel) and Copper Chromated Arsenate (CCA)  The Penta treated poles usually appear as brown and the CCA poles are usually green in color.

Creosote lost popularity some time back due to environmental and health concerns but has recently been re-registered with the EPA for commercial use.  It is widely used by the rairoad for rail ties. You can't buy it as a homeowner but you can obtain it as a byproduct of your wood stove burning wet, green wood and condensing the smoke.  I doubt there is any wood preservative that would make red oak withstand ground contact use more than 10yrs.  If I had to give it a shot, it would probably be soaking it for a week in 50/50 mix of off road diesel fuel or kerosene and creosote and then dipping it in tar or pitch.  After this I would put at least 6" of gravel base under it, put the post in the hole and then mix Diatomaceous earth in the soil to tamp back around it.

Oil in the wood fiber prevents fungus/mildew feeding on the cellulose.  Copper also has fungicidal properties.  Arsenate is a poison which kills insects.  Creosote is a insect repellent/poison as well.  Best solution, use Cedar, Redwood, Osage Orange, White Oak or Black Locust.  Treat with 50/50 used crankcase oil and kerosene and slightly char the ends.  Should last 15yrs or more.

Do use gravel under post.  Don't use concrete.

[LogsWoodallGood]

What about encasing the submerged portion by screwing durarock to it, again, when ive ripped out old durarock the furring strips weren't rotten, even on 30 year old jobs.

there must be some kind of epoxy or permanent sealing agent that will work. I think we just need to do some experimentation.   BTW, ive ripped out old showers that had tar paper waterproofing. the tar paper is almost always completely rotten, crumbles in your fingers and leaves the wood underneath rotten, a problem I haven't seen with durarock.

[LogsWoodallGood]

Wait, ive got it. CLAY coat the burying end and make-shift kiln dry that end. nothing would get through that clay.

[LogsWoodallGood]

One last idea, (since the clay could crack) truck bed liner.   

Ok I wont give anymore ideas on the subject, im probably way off.

[SwampDonkey]

I have a white cedar post by the well head with a pipe that lets air in. Dad pounded that post in over 40 years ago and it's still standing out there to this day. Been a few birds fed off that post a number of years ago.  ;D

[Jeff]

It doesn't matter what you coat it with is what we are trying to tell you.

[Ianab]

Anything that keeps water out, also keeps water in....

Like the guys suggest, pick a naturally durable wood species and bury it in gravel to let the water drain, that will last the longest.

Or use a properly treated (Ground contact rated CCA) post. This doesn't try and seal the wood, it just makes it toxic to bugs, bacteria and fungus.

[D L Bahler]

IF you can obtain Osage Orange in a big enough stick, it will outlive you. We have old fence posts around that have been in the ground for 70 years or so and are still solid. The stuff is so dense, it does not hold moisture and is so hard bugs cannot eat it.

Beyond that, try encasing the posts in a bed of sand and/or gravel, with several inches of gravel underneath. This will keep the moisture away

[SwampDonkey]

Or become a cylinder of water with a post in it if the ground is heavy clay. 

[D L Bahler]

That's true. However, if the ground is heavy clay you are actually better off. Wood will not rot nearly as quick in heavy clay as in loamy soil. Clay is very hygroscopic -it draws moisture out of everything it touches- a fact once used by builders who would coat their walls inside with clay, because it protected the wood.

[Bandmill Bandit]

I know that the local line construction and maintenance companies around here use about a foot to 18 inches of 2" washed drain rock in the bottom of the hole to set the post on and then generally use 3/4 minus finish crush to tamp the poles in. Cant say if that is how they do it for ALL poles every where in the province but that is how they do it here in a sandy clay substrate with about 12 to 18 inches of sandy black loam top soil. Seems to work pretty well.

In some of the more silty soil conditions they will use a filter cloth liner for the full depth of the hole before they install the drain rock post and the gravel. I get quite a few poles from them and any that have come out of this type of install have no visible rot indications. Lots of them are 25 to 30 years of use based on the fumigation tags that I have to pull off the pole before I saw them. 

[Jeff]

That shows that having a method of moving the moisture away from the wood is the ticket, not sealing it out (or in)

[SwampDonkey]

That's true. However, if the ground is heavy clay you are actually better off. Wood will not rot nearly as quick in heavy clay as in loamy soil. Clay is very hygroscopic -it draws moisture out of everything it touches- a fact once used by builders who would coat their walls inside with clay, because it protected the wood.

Yeah but your method puts a barrier between the post and the clay. And that course rock might as well be dead air because water will seep from the clay into a hole because of osmosis if nothing else. Air is less dense than clay and dryer unless the clay is a kilned brick. I've dug a few pits in clay before and watch the water fill the hole in no time.

Naturally flooded cedar (that drowns) will stand for decades in water logged muck soil. Cedar are shallow rooted. Up the road by a bridge crossing, there is a cedar telephone pole that has stood there since the 40's on the bank of the brook, or nearly so. Something broke the top off years ago, might be lightning. Bit it's still there with the NB Power identification tags still on it.

[Magicman]

I found out the hard way not to cement posts in the ground.

[D L Bahler]

Sorry, I meant that when putting the posts directly in the dirt, clay is better. In this case the encasement is not necessary.

What you seat your posts in needs to be adapted to the soil around it.

Another viable option is to put concrete piles in the dirt that stick up a ways above grade, then  anchor wooden posts to these. This is a very durable system, it's generally how we do pole barns now.

That's true. However, if the ground is heavy clay you are actually better off. Wood will not rot nearly as quick in heavy clay as in loamy soil. Clay is very hygroscopic -it draws moisture out of everything it touches- a fact once used by builders who would coat their walls inside with clay, because it protected the wood.

Yeah but your method puts a barrier between the post and the clay. And that course rock might as well be dead air because water will seep from the clay into a hole because of osmosis if nothing else. Air is less dense than clay and dryer unless the clay is a kilned brick. I've dug a few pits in clay before and watch the water fill the hole in no time.

Naturally flooded cedar (that drowns) will stand for decades in water logged muck soil. Cedar are shallow rooted. Up the road by a bridge crossing, there is a cedar telephone pole that has stood there since the 40's on the bank of the brook, or nearly so. Something broke the top off years ago, might be lightning. Bit it's still there with the NB Power identification tags still on it.

[S.Hyland]

That is generally my preference. Concrete or stone below grade, with the wood well above grade. I have heavy clay in my immediate area and drainage and seepage are a constant problem with any hole. They all want to become ponds!

[LittleJohn]

Talk to local power company and see what they use to treat power poles?  Just a thought...

[Bandmill Bandit]

Talk to local power company and see what they use to treat power poles?  Just a thought...

Talking to the line construction crew foreman will give you a lot of good info.

Common rural single and double conductor line poles around here tend to be pine. In wetter heavy soil and swampy condition they go to tamarack. They use the 2 inch washed rock in all pole installs and while the drainage this provides is a significant secondary factor it is not the main reason for using it. The soil type, diameter of the pole determines the diameter of hole drilled for the pole which in turn determines the depth of the washed rock used. The goal is to "provide a footing" that covers at least 4 times the area or more (depending on soil conditions) of the pole base to help reduce or eliminate sinking of the pole.

The Fortis line construction supervisor that I talked to yesterday said  that in high water table regions they put the poles in with the rock and the gravel for a good solid install but they do not do anything to keep the water away from the poles. They do try to get a bit of a berm built up around the pole base to allow surface water to drain back so as not to have it right up against the pole where possible. seems that little critters love to occupy the water right next to the poles and that seems to be a contributing factor to the ground level rotting. His basic goal is to achieve an install that will maximize pole life. He said that can vary any where from 2 years to 50 years and "there just aint much we can do to adjust that. It is just how the glaciers left this dirt and mud spread around and we just got live with it!" In the odd situation the will use a treated cloth to discourage the little  water borne critters but even that is of limited value. In areas where there is extreme alkaline conditions they will build a pretty good sized rock berm above grade to support the pole.   

So there you have it from a guy that does it every day and has been for over 30 years. 

[SwampDonkey]

Poles have been replaced here at least twice by home since they cut all the 40's cedar poles down around 1980. They don't do anything special that I've ever seen other than anchor them and ground them. Then someone comes around later and steels all the ground wire as far up the pole as they can reach.

[pizza]

Hi. Check out Connecticut Post and Beam. They may have what people are calling here the "knife bracket" you could use to attach the posts to a concrete pier. This would leave your bottom ends of your post above ground and not so susceptible to water rot over the years. The pier could be poured so that just the top say 2" is above the ground so water can run off.