I don't want to start a fight. I would just like to know from a diy point of view towards icf or block for a timber frame. Right now I'm designing a walkout basement with pilasters to support the frame. My costs are about the same for block with 4 inches of xps vs icf with similar rvalue as advertised by the manufacturer. The difference Im coming up with right away is time. Im guessing 100 block a day for 1600 block equals a couple of weeks of perfect weather and time availability vs one week for icfs. However I haven't been able to source braces for icfs yet but the zuckle looks cost affective and I have seen them for sale used.
Im open to any advice from guys that have used either foundation and why they prefer a certain method.
Thanks in advance.
Rusty
Fox Block is a great product. To be honest, I haven't used block foundation so I have no basis for comparison. ICFs are lighter and seem to be easier to use...especially from a DIY standpoint. Some steps, like adding XPS to block foundation, are eliminated. Fox Blocks are reversible, meaning you can flip them every anywhichway and they will still snap together, which is why I use them. Just be sure to brace more than you think you need: nothing quite like a blowout to keep one's ego in check. :)
Considered an ICF but little bracing is required. I used FasWall blocks. 85% shredded pallets, 15% Portland cement. You can do 6' lifts (per the recommendation), I did 9' on one corner and the sales guy said the "experts" will do 12' lifts. All about the concrete mix and enough labor. I did mine with one helper and a pump crew. The second lift was 6'. This was over the door ways so I removed the insulation (3" of rock wool).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20160915_Cabin_3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1473998402)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20160415_Cabin_1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1460780008)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20161012_Cabin_4.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1476330583)
I can provide contact info if you would like to talk with my salesman.
I used AMVIC ICF. Supplier provided the bracing free. First lift was 12 foot. All blocks were reversible. Pretty DanG easy considering it was the first time I'd ever seen ICF blocks when the delivery truck showed up with my 666 block load.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/IMG_0065.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1493727229)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/IMG_0067.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1493727229)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/IMG_0227_2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1493728154)
I've used both. I've had a blowout on ICF's which wasn't the end of the world but did cause some scrambling and was glad we had an extra hand that day. I've had blowouts with poured walls too. We had an excavator hit an ICF wall with his bucket on one job and that was, different. We couldn't see the structure to see whether it was damaged or not. My other concern is providing insects with a path up to the frame, never had trouble just concerns. I can also throw another way into the mix. I've built on Superior walls a couple of times. They worked well and are installed in a day on a gravel footing, insulated, studded, electrical chases and no foam outside so my insect concerns were relieved. I think their engineering is a little lightweight but it is a good product.
Thanks Don
how do most people line up their posts on a superior wall? Ive never seen a profile of that detail. would be nice to see how timber frames are incorporated into that system.
Rusty
We gave Superior the TF plan and their engineer packed together their stud sections according to the point loads above. In a few locations where we had serious point loads they also specced concrete cookies under the walls on the gravel to help distribute the loads over a wider footprint than just the wall alone. An engineer friend visited the first one during construction and pointed out a few details, I had him look over things beforehand on the second but don't recall any changes being needed, so I think it was maybe a case of us all growing with time. Both houses have been trouble free foundationwise, one is about 8, the other about 5 years old. There are several others in that neighborhood using their first generation system with wood nailers instead of steel that have also been trouble free to my knowledge. You can find prescriptive language for their footings in the code in the same area as the pwf language.
Quote from: Don P on May 02, 2017, 03:55:07 PM
My other concern is providing insects with a path up to the frame, never had trouble just concerns.
I was concerned with insects as well with my FasWall. The wood is treated with acid (to remove the sugars they say) so termites won't be interested. The block is a little porous so I was concerned about ants. Standard insulation is Polyiso (the yellow crunchy stuff) or you can switch to rock wool (slightly cheaper). I had ants completely devour polyiso insulation in a pump house so I was having none of that. The only issue I had with the rock wool is it took me two winters to build. In the spring, snow melt during freeze thaw cycles saturated the rock wool. That made the blocks very heavy and since the insulation value is good, the saturated rock wool was frozen to each other in the middle of the stacks even though the surrounding snow was long gone.
My frame sits on top of my first floor deck. I've got a full icf walkout basement under it. I embedded strapping in the Icfs that ultimate got nailed to the outside of my posts. I simply added blocking under my floor to the icf to support the post point loads. Didn't have it engineered. Haven't had any issues after 10 years.
I used Superior Walls on my home and like them a lot. They go up quick and easy and you only have to get the concrete trucks in once. My basement is almost as warm as my house but nice and cool in the summer. My engineer speced additional footer pads under all my post locations which Superior Walls provided. There is a diagram on Timber Frame Headquarters site showing how to support posts and still have room on your walls for sips.
Great advice!
Thanks for your input guys.
What about exposure? I've seen a few pictures of foundation walls and slab poured that sits exposed through the winter. Is this a concern?
What about having the first floor deck on the foundation walls exposed throughout the winter? Some say the treated ply will do well while I've seen others say the corners will start to swell.
Timing for me is the issue. I won't be able to enclose the frame before winter. Getting the foundation in, and the deck on would allow me to raise the frame next spring. Is it worth the risk to have the Icf foundation wall or block with exterior rigid foam and basement slab exposed through the winter?
What has been your experience ?
Thanks
Rusty
My ICF and floor underlayment was exposed to snow and rain for months with no effect. The blocks did get a slight chalking but a quick sweep with a broom took care of that before Stucco.
Thanks Bill
With the block and slab, my main concern would be frost heave or water getting into a spot between the two and freezing, causing a crack in the mortar or slab.
If I put the first floor deck on, my concern would be the snow, along with a freeze thaw cycle causing delamination of the ply.
How deep does the frost go in your neck of the woods?
About 1 inch :D
Frost has no power without water. If it is well drained then it will not heave. If you get ice under something there is no stopping it. Obviously we build through the winter before houses are heated, good drainage is the key.
I've had good luck with Advantek floor sheathing. I've pulled up many sheets of failed plywood but have never lost a sheet of this stuff. I do like to paint the floor with cheap oil based porch, garage floor or mismixed paint. Do not backfill a foundation until you have the floor on to hold the wall top in place.
Quote from: Don P on May 11, 2017, 01:47:25 PM
Frost has no power without water. If it is well drained then it will not heave. If you get ice under something there is no stopping it. Obviously we build through the winter before houses are heated, good drainage is the key.
I've had good luck with Advantek floor sheathing. I've pulled up many sheets of failed plywood but have never lost a sheet of this stuff. I do like to paint the floor with cheap oil based porch, garage floor or mismixed paint. Do not backfill a foundation until you have the floor on to hold the wall top in place.
These were 3 of the many helpful tips you gave me 10 years ago when I built mine.
My Advantek deck was exposed to the weather, and a lot of rain, for about two months. I did paint it with returned and unused paint (that ended up pink when mixed) and tried to cover it with tarps to no avail. It worried me, and showed some staining, but no buckling. I personally would not want to have left it open to the weather all winter.
Thanks Don
Hey Witterbound, Where was your building site? Was it exposed to freezing temps?
Rusty
Arkansas. No freeZing temps before dry in.
Don P, what was the engineering concern you had with Superior? Did you deal with John Cotton (plant in Amelia County)?
We are in Fluvanna and seriously considering Superior's Xi and maybe the AG above grade walls, tho' the cost is estimated at $130 per LF, $110 for the basement (9 ft ceilings).
I'm going to study the other systems mentioned herein, thanks for yours and everyone's comments.
Quote from: MbfVA on May 29, 2017, 05:05:04 AM
We are in Fluvanna and seriously considering Superior's Xi and maybe the AG above grade walls, tho' the cost is estimated at $130 per LF, $110 for the basement (9 ft ceilings).
Is that the cost of just the blocks or does that include the concrete to fill them? IIRC, my FasWall blocks were less than $10/24" length (8" high), or $5/ft. So a 9' wall section would be 13½ blocks high = $67.50 plus concrete.
My 6' lift of 180 linear feet cost $2,000 for concrete (high strength "6-sack") and $420 for pumping. The blocks were right about $8,000 for those. So $10,420 for 1,080 sq-ft of wall area. (my labor was free ;) ). That works out to $9.65/sq-ft. So for a 9' wall, $86.83, filled. There is rebar in there as well and my estimate for the rebar was $1,500 for this section but most of it I got for $0.10 on the dollar if not free.
This is great information.
Thanks for the input guys.
Ljohnsaw , just to make sure we are comparing apples to apples, did the faswall company provide you with some engineering numbers? My question would be, is there a strength difference between a faswal pour vs an Icf pour because of the difference in the form that the concrete takes. I think I saw someone call the faswall shape a post and beam in an earlier post. In other words is there a difference in strength between a solid core of concrete inside an Icf vs the grid pattern of concrete inside a faswall type product?
Thanks
Rusty
Yes, FasWall does provide engineering sheets. Go to their web site and "request" the downloads. You submit your information (email) and then you get an email with the links. They will send you an email every now and then saying they can help you plan. Nice and they don't get obnoxious with bothering you. Their claim is they are approved by all building departments.
You can get lots of different strengths depending on the rebar grid. The "normal" install calls for ½" #60 bar 24" OC vertically (every other hole) and 16" horizontally (every other course - but that is the closest you can get). My engineer opted for higher strength since my walls are 12' tall (one corner is 14'-6"). I did 5/8" 12" OC vertically but still the ½" horizontal. While you can walk on top of the dry stacked blocks, they don't provide any structural strength - it is all the concrete and rebar. Also, the blocks are 12" wide and with 3" of insulation and ~2" side walls, the concrete is a little over 5" thick. However, in areas where extra strength is needed, the insulation is removed (like under main posts or adjacent to door openings).
Ljohnsaw, Superior builds the wall sections in their plant, and brings them to the job site, erects them one by one to form the basement wall, so other than the floor, no added concrete required. Another nice feature is that no traditional footing is required – they are set on several inches of gravel in the trench. I think precompaction is required, not sure who does it. We still have a lot to learn about it, but it is definitely one simple solution from the homeowner/builder standpoint. Cost, is another matter.
They also offer above ground walls, a bit more per ft than basement.
I've been told Superior does a lot of preliminary and engineering work for projects as well. Rep said he'd be very involved (former Class A contractor himself). A big factor for us is the fact that their VA plant is only a little over an hour away.
Turnkey is tempting, but we all have budgets.
I forgot to factor in the footings. That would bump the price about $6/foot (I split the cost of the footing between the two lifts - I paid about $12/foot for concrete and pumping - 12" thick, 24" wide). I suppose it all comes down to what your time is worth.
So I ran the numbers a different way. All the materials (FasWall and Concrete) and the labor (pumping) and divided by the wall length. My walls are 10'8" under the porch, 12' for the majority of the basement (headroom of 10') with some dipping down to 14'8". There is also the very large garage door and man door cut outs. So I'm averaging the height to be 12'. So the walls/foundation cost $144/linear foot and about $12/square foot.
At $110 turnkey, you seem to have just made a big big argument for Superior, esp since you did not cost in your time, but my $110 cost estimate was for 9 ft ceiling ht. Which may be with the Xi sections themselves actually closer in ht to 10? I will check the Superior site and see if I can determine.
Still anticipating response from the OP who liked Superior but who also was at least mildly concerned with Superior's "engineering" being "light", but their proffered level of involvement leading up to install is another factor. One day turnkey service just plain appeals if the price is right.
Quote from: MbfVA on May 29, 2017, 05:29:43 PM
At $110 turn key, you would seem to have just made a big big argument for Superior, esp since you did not cost in your time.
Is the Superior product insulated? I think the killer for me would be the shipping ;) And does your price include setting them up? Definitely not a DIY job to set them in place, I would imagine!
I looked at the FasWall because I didn't want to have to do something about the normally exposed foam on conventional ICF. And didn't really consider poured concrete because I would 1) have to buy, build or rent a lot of forms and 2) I would have to insulate.
I hate it when I write a novel and the computer eats it :D
The Superior price would be installed, insulated, studded out, wiring chases in that studding, ready for drywall, its a good deal. You have the gravel down and ready. I would slightly slope the trenches and underslab grade to daylight rather than targeting dead level, move any water out from underneath, never had a problem just things I'd do next time. Rent a plate compactor and do the trenches in lifts. They will run their plate over it install day and check/fine tune grade, be on target though.
The first job was a TF with heavy point loads, they could have done better, never been an issue just a little light on thinking there. The second was one of the first jobs out of Amelia, excellent. Must have been 5-6 years ago. The concrete is done under controlled conditions, some of the toughest stuff you will ever drill through.
Aside, Michelle was ~3 bucks of scaffold off the greatroom floor sanding the kingpost trusses on that job when a neighbor came by to check on us. He had been awakend from an afternoon nap by the tremor centered in Louisa. He was ICF's on poured footings, we were on gravel. We said "what earthquake?" Neither was damaged or anything, just interesting that the gravel trench seemed to isolate us.
re Don's post: Virginia had a very rare earthquake a few years back, actually decently powerful and damaged the Washington Monument. Shook my house so hard I had the family outside in a hurry (badly poured slab from 1960)- time spent in CA helped me figure it out. Lasted almost a min. Very rare thing here, 5.8 but very deep.
Had a neighbor put in a superior basement system and they had it up very quickly. Modular sections for the home too; was up in 2 weeks and then they spent a few months doing the other things like porch, windows, paint, etc but it was very quick.
As the last hour of this remembrance day wanes away you've helped me remember an ancestor at a bridge over the South Anna. Eighty men held off twelve hundred.
We live in Goochland County, and our farm is in Fluvanna, both of which border Louisa. I was in the kitchen when that quake started and thought the train had jumped the tracks along to James River about a half mile south. It's probably the most frightened I have ever been in my own house. We think it trashed our 125 foot well, the one for our restaurant about 500 feet away, and based on the amount of mica that I am seeing, may have harmed our home well, which is about 225 feet deep. FEMA contract engineer came around, spent about 20 minutes in the house and got us $1400 for mainly minor sheet rock damage. They had no mandate to cover commercial property, so that well was our responsibility, and I am not certain anyone could prove any damage to our home well. We're on county water there now at the restaurant, which saves a lot of drama when the dishwashing load peaks on holidays and busy others.
Our house was built in 1983 by a 1953 USNA grad (with Ross Perot, whom he describes as one of the finest human beings he's known--has paid millions for education tuition for thousands of Naval dependents, and more), who sold it to us. Overbuilt in some ways, with 3 steel girders underneath in the crawl, et al.
Cuckoo Tavern or what long ago replaced it on that spot, was severely damaged as was Louisa High School. I think the homeowner paid well over $200,000 for restoration work, and the school was demolished and replaced, something like $40 MM? Peanuts compared to CA, I know. But this is VA, and we don't have much experience.
I'm glad to hear that Superior seems to make out well. I would not want our to be built home to slide down the hill into the rivah.
I am not sure why Superior charges more for above ground (the AG system) since the rep told me they are essentially the same panels. It may relate to the larger expected number of door and window cut outs that have to be done on above grade wall, since I believe the $130 was giving me a ballpark average (high, I am hoping), and not any sort of price list quote.
Wondering how we'd finish the exterior of AG, since I thank it basically presents a fairly smooth concrete surface, one that allows for a lot of different exterior coverings, perhaps even stucco/Dirvitthank it basically presents a fairly smooth concrete surface, one that allows for a lot of different exterior coverings, perhaps even stucco, or Dryvit for more insulation (is there some kind of mold problem going on with D?). I have no idea of the relative cost involved.
I wish Sup walls were like SIPs, that more insulation could be factory installed/thicker made, since the R-13 or so they do does not work for AG installs, more will have to be added. Wouldn't that be the cheapest way all of the things considered? Wouldn't that be the cheapest way all of the things considered? Thinking, more "turn key". In fact Sup recommends more insulation even with their basement systems, particularly for any part above ground level.
The included stud space certainly can hold whatever you want to add. Somehow, fiberglass bats, likely the cheapest route, seem very low-tech in such an otherwise hi-tech product, not to mention another trade involved. Do you get that I don't like FGlass?
Maybe they will add an insulation enhancement feature for the next generation/generation, where insulation values can be customized at the factory.
Has anyone looked at EZ SIP? CN company that does at least some of their manufacturing in the states. It's not structural, but it does purport to deal with thermal bridging in normal frame construction, and it comes in specific widths and heights to suit the user.
BTW, big SUP feature that I don't believe anyone has mentioned--a 20? yr warranty against water in the basement. I suspect the insect 🐜 concerns voiced by OPs would be largely taken care of, but we are going to use Boric Acid in our construction with a vengeance, regardless, JIK.
Another thing we may try is mixing habanero pepper into things that might interest vermin, like caulking around the foundation, windows, etc. Sprinkle a little in some of the stud cavities along with the boric acid? Big "South of the Border" surprise for the little guys, maybe? Can a roach scream as he or she zips around looking for water? :D
Ours had a coarse broomed finish, a good bonding surface. On the first we had brick ties installed and the mason applied ~4" thick rock in a dry ledge stone fashion, very labor intensive but quite nice. On the second there were only a few bits of foundation visible. The garage entry was the largest area, he applied natural veneer stone there. It would be easy to do some form of stucco. I think the dryvit/mold issues you are seeing applies to EIFS systems, entirely different animal and not the best idea IMO.
It would be worth inquiring whether they could do a full foam cavity fill at the plant, no idea. We used fiberglass in above grade, yup not my favorite either. Sprayfoam would be better but another costly trade to bring in.
Do you have a link to your restaurant? Food had to come in here somewhere ;D
Thought you'd never ask
www.ordinary.com
Harold Wingate of Independence originally is the owner of The Home Place in Catawba, showed us how to do it back in 1986, with total generosity of time and expertise and he & family are our friends to this day--they won't even let us pay to eat there, we're family to them.
My mother's first teaching job was in Independence, 1937.
Did you meet Jim Craig of Sotheby's Auctions, owed Great Hall up on the mtn just W of independence? Originally asked $5 MM for it, sold some of the land
Harold is an atty and appraiser at or abt 90 now; I am a CPA and former commercial realtor, and wannabe engineer (2 years at VT before switching to acctg; and I counseled freshman engineering students for the last two years there as a student assistant – they didn't fire me when I changed majors). Go figure how both of us went so wrong 😧🤓.
I am hoping wood will set me free.
I'll ask Cotton if more factory insulation is possible. I'm sensing beta test status for residential above ground anyway-- I think they have sold some of those commercially, but I'm not sure they've done any residential.
Using the Superior AG (above ground) system would render timber framing 'ornamental' as far as the exterior wall is concerned, wouldn't it?
Who was your salesperson at Sup?
Also, he and I discussed going more than two stories about the basement for the AG system on the phone (3 total, including the Xi basement wall) , and he said he had seen that in commercial applications, maybe as many as eight or nine in some motels, so he wasn't sure why there would be any limitation. When I emailed him later with some addl questions including a reprise on the # of stories, he mentioned only the three story limitation. No further mention of going more than three stories total with Superior. Wondering if he got his chain pulled for mentioning >3 for residential??
We are targeting three stories above ground, to give us a high view of the river on the top floor. Makes our desired copper roof smaller & cheaper!
My wife manages the farmer's market in Independence. Yes I know Jim socially, we share some friends in common, the old cedar garage door from their place is the door in my shop. Quite a character. They have moved, I think to FL. I've taken several of Frank Woeste's engineering short courses at VT over the years.
I cannot remember our salesperson's name, he was a retired contractor. Really you can say the same about SIPS, you can build a house out of them alone. I'm certainly not a purist, I don't mind conventional walls with a heavy timber roof. Once structure is taken care of the rest is personal taste.
Quote from: MbfVA on May 30, 2017, 03:32:24 PM
Thought you'd never ask
www.ordinary.com
Food looks good, 8) but, man o man - the web site needs work! They should hire Jeff! ;) Maybe its southern thang, but the rambling on and repeating stuff sure is confusin'! :D
Fair critique but it's like the food, home made. When I get the time, it'll be bettah.
Wordpress is not my favorite since I cannot really do it off line (and I am one slow typist) like with the old Macromedia now Adobe program, which I have as part of Creative suite but cannot recall its name.
This little Adobe spark video (draft) probably would do better for us on its own:
https://voice.adobe.com/a/SycASXtG
That one has a typo or 2, earlier version, I'll try to redo it with the right link soon.
I cannot say enough impolite things about wordpress and other site builders... but I get outvoted by the younger set so I let them take over the sites I've helped with, then they get distracted, leave behind that pile of garbled code, and so it goes.
Let me toss in more kero: nudura.com
Is this just ICF of a particular fashion or a major innovation?
Anyone use them?
Also, I came across a concrete builder on Trulia blog who does residential in MO. He claims to be able to build competitively with concrete. I am writing to him, will report.
Just another ICF brand.
I used these
http://www.amvicsystem.com/insulated-concrete-forms