Do you scale up or down when the log is between Inches on the stick?
I scale one up and the next down etc.
depends whether you're selling or buying. ;D
A question I don't like because there are so many variables. I am in a scribner area but i use international. Most logs I get need deductions. The fast answer is that i would scale down. On really nice logs over 8' with taper I might scale up and on 16' and longer scale as 2 logs. It matters little how I scale because I set the bd. ft. price.
I always scale down. I use scribner scale
I scale down because I don't deduct for sweep
When I was a scaler, a lot depended on the guy bringing me logs, the quality of the load, and the quality of the log.
I had loggers that I dealt with that were a bit shady. I had one that would hide defect with mud, for example. I'd be a bit harder on them. Their quality would be a bit less where they would really stretch the grade. But, if they were a steady supply and their quality was generally pretty good, I'd give them a couple up. Generally, I wouldn't find too many that were on the exact half. Usually they fell within the bounds of either up or down. Its a lot like grading lumber.
That mill bought by Doyle. Most mills in my area work on Doyle.
Why I ask is I got into it with a logger. Here in NH we use INT And go inside the bark with the stick. He was rounding up to the next inch. Most times you're outside the bark by that time. ::)
When I studied at UNH Forestry They would have you measure that horizontally and vertically on the small end inside the bark to get an average number for the bf in the log.
When the log is at 11 1/2 It is not 12" could be 11 1/4" is not 12" It's all 11" If the stick was made with 1/2" lines I would use them.
What this guy was doing was holding the end of the stick inside the bark on one side and running to the full inch. At 11 1/2" go up to 12" your in or just outside the bark.
My scale and his are 500 bf off. ::)
The first time I was called out on a scale.
So rather than be mad, [ I was shocked, never been called a thief before ] I'm going to point him to where he can get EDUCATED!!! UNH is a good place to start. :P
But then maybe he's just greedy.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 16, 2023, 08:00:48 PM
Why I ask is I got into it with a logger. Here in NH we use INT And go inside the bark with the stick. He was rounding up to the next inch. Most times you're outside the bark by that time. ::)
When I studied at UNH Forestry They would have you measure that horizontally and vertically on the small end inside the bark to get an average number for the bf in the log.
When the log is at 11 1/2 It is not 12" could be 11 1/4" is not 12" It's all 11" If the stick was made with 1/2" lines I would use them.
What this guy was doing was holding the end of the stick inside the bark on one side and running to the full inch. At 11 1/2" go up to 12" your in or just outside the bark.
My scale and his are 500 bf off. ::)
The first time I was called out on a scale.
So rather than be mad, [ I was shocked, never been called a thief before ] I'm going to point him to where he can get EDUCATED!!! UNH is a good place to start. :P
But then maybe he's just greedy.
It's funny (not) how a few board feet here or there will spoil a business relationship.
But proper industry standard measurement procedures are a must. It sounds like your logger guy needs an independent lesson on how to measure using standard methods.
All the talk about log scaling means little except to someone who is learning how. So much of it is judgement based tradition and sawing logs apart. If you need to be supplied with wood now and in the future you don't cheat people. You do your best to accept the wood that is offered you. You don't down scale wood you don't like rather you lower the price. The logger likes to know how much he had on the truck. For little guys like me relationships with those who bring in logs are everything. Only a fool would cheat them. I would never change the way I scale but I change the price all the time. I also have been challenged and will be happy to hand them the stick and point out the deductions. If that doesn't work out then the whole thing was a mistake.
I have had that happen before .
I offer them to come over and scale it with me and none of them want to.
One guy I quit buying from .
I don't like when they tell me the trucker said it was x amount of bdft and I ask did he scale it ? The logger says no .
I'm like the scale don't lie
If I was a logger I would know the scale of my logs .
Takes time to scale, and time is money.
Logger is likely saying this is the price for this load of logs. Not this load of logs is XX bdft at $xx per bdft. It is what he wants for that load of logs.
Scale it (your time) and then decide if you want to buy more from that logger. Just a thought...
I bought for one company that did scale to the nearest 1/2". Easy to do with a hand-held computer.
In our region everything is Doyle which is well known to benefit the mill on everything under 24". Price per foot paid reflects the expected over-run.
It is common practice here to round up every other log that lands on the 1/2". Tie mills that need the 8'8" trim often round up every log and include 1 side of bark.
Grades and prices are subjective. Scale not so much. 2x4=8 and so does is 4x2.
It's been my experience it's usually better to be generous with the footage and little tight on the price if a choice must be made.
Most of the time it comes down to paying more than is prudent business in order to maintain log inventory.
I've never sold logs to any mill or exporter around here that didn't round down. Everything is measured inside the bark and if they're a busted out knot on the end of a log, it's measured to the narrowest spot even with 12" of trim on everything . Doesn't seem to matter if it's in-house or independent scalers. Maybe that logger has a board stretcher
There is a large hardwood buyer in N.Y. that uses scribner and gives 1 bark, that is inside bark on 1 side and the bark thickness on the other. On knotty pine logs with ample trim and a swell a few inches from the small end i will add something. You know from sawing what you can get. You take so many deductions for defects that it is only fair to give what you know is there. It's like scaling a long tapered log as 2 short ones.
I do that for long logs. 20' and up. I do my best to be fair.. I don't buy air sell air, or cut air ;)
When I scaled, I also graded the logs. Its a bit different than just finding footage. It gives you some leeway in being generous with scale, if necessary.
I had a logger who thought I was too rough on grade. His logger was also a sawyer and he came down to the mill when I graded his load. He thought my grade and footage was fair, and maybe a bit generous. I lost that logger because he was in a bad patch of timber and was losing money. That's not the grader's fault.
I've also had my scale checked when I marked timber. I'm pretty accurate.
All my logs in the yard have the scale recorded on the ends.
Having a sawmill is nice. I scale the log then cut it then scale the lumber. To see how well I did on the scale. Or if I take some BF off for rot or whatever. then cut I can tell if I was right on the deduction.
Cutting since 1987, That is a lot of logs and scaled trucks. :P
I haven't milled or scaled a lot but the little bit that I've scribner scaled and then milled was very interesting for me. I really need to start scaling everything and marking the end's but always short on time
Scaling and grading are two different things. Because both often get done by the same person and at the same time, it confuses a lot of people. Most log yard "scalers/buyers" just naturally integrate both scaling and grading seamlessly when they measure a log.
Scaling is measuring and estimating the volume/board feet in a log. Deductions are for sweep, crook, rot or other defects that reduce the usable volume of wood depending upon utilization of the log.
Grading is evaluating a log for the lumber grade it will produce. Looking for limbs, knots, bumps and other defects that reduce lumber grade. Log grading tends to be somewhat more subjective, relies on regional practices but there are industry standards for the lumber from the logs. Again, field decisions impact log values in part because of where certain logs get send (which and what kind of mill).
Use of the log determines price, lumber versus chips for example, pallet stock versus lumber. Loggers obviously have to make choices in the field to send logs for certain uses to the "right" place for the best prices.
People also look at logs and just "sense" what they should be worth. They don't necessarily SEE the defects that cause deductions until they are pointed out. For example how many "highly valuable" walnut logs do we run across? I don't know how many conversations I've had about what "so and so said is a veneer log."
The expertise of the man sitting in the knuckleboom in the logger's yard can make or break an operation. Same is true for the scaler/grader in the sawmill's log yard.
I used to haul wood to a mill that advertised really high prices for hardwood grade logs. The mill was a long haul and out of the way. After a couple of loads, I realized that what was a 8 or 9 cord load (they were just buying on cords measured on the truck) at that mill, would've measured 11 or 12 at the pallet mill we typically dealt with. Their scale was so short, we decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and we just went to the pallet mill from then on.
My point in that story is that there are industry standards that everyone has agreed on. If you are consistently scaling short of what every other mill around you is, people will stop coming to you to sell their logs. On the flip side, if everyone is happy with your scale except for one logger that thinks he should get to decide it, I'd probably let him go somewhere else🤷
Some loggers think all mills are thieves. I have guys count how many logs are on a truck to see if the count matches the slip. I have some paint on each end of the log pile they deliver, [My logs] ::)
In 1999 22 scalers got together with the USDA Forest Service and UNH came up with the " Log Scaling Handbook " All mills use this in NH. What I use.
This is the first time I bought logs from him. He sent me a nasty letter.
I wrote a letter back. Telling him to get educated. And I sent a ck for the 500 bf he said I stole. $170.00 Also said I did not agree with him on the bf.
Told him I hoped the ck would appease his greed and don't bring logs here anymore.
Too bad He did cut a nice log.
Have some bring junk in and want top $$ for it.
We have a logger certification in NH. Most don't do it. :P ::)
I have some cut a log with a notch so big you lose a face on the log. like cut a log 8'6" and the notch face is 7'10".
What would you do with that log?
Some go to Homedepot buy a saw, Now there a logger. :D
I have a bunch of guys I get logs from. None have a problem with my scale.
Old saying
Liars can figure but, figures don't lie.
Some people think that anyone with a scale stick is a thief. I've seen foresters who underscale so their selling prices are higher. Others overscale to present more volume than is actually there. Loggers can sort out which is which and bid accordingly.
Some think lumber buyers that buy grade lumber will beat you with a grade stick. In some respects, its true. Good graders will tell you they'll be lenient on grade when markets are demanding more wood. When markets are tight, they tighten up on grade. I've graded lumber and on several loads I graded it before it left the mill. I could then see how the buyer graded the same lumber. I had one load I sent to a local mill that I had worked at. The first load was off $50. They asked who inspected the lumber. The next load was off $500. It was the last load.
The one mill I scaled logs for had their own grading requirements. Prices varied due to length, diameter and defect. If a log was perfect, but under sized, it dropped in grade. The #3 logs were priced to keep them out of the mill stream.
If I was a logger, I would count how many logs are on the load, and look to see how many the mill counted. Mistakes can be made. A constant mistake would seem intentional. I would also scale a load and see how consistent it is. I think its the only way a logger can judge whether they want to do business with a mill or not.
I'd imagine he's going to run into the problem that he thinks he has at other mills. With all the different sorts the buyers have around here and the lack of sorting room I usually have, I just camp run everything and it's really hard to tell sometimes. But.. the checks don't lie.
Anybody in the wood business is a thief, just ask around. We are the ones that stole 1/2" off every 2x4 in Home depot. We will also short cord you on firewood. Twice I have been told by 'loggers' how to saw fence line logs without hitting metal. Also how to make money on boxing the shake on hemlock. I should of told them how to change lot lines and knock off car faces .
the mills around here round under
He called me and must have apologized 10 times after getting my letter.
Wants to sell me logs, ::)
Told him I'd think about it :D :D :D :D
He wants to sell you logs because your scale is better than the big mill :D
Might not be the first time the logger has ruined his business relationships.