Looking at cutting some 3 sided logs, or d logs, if you prefer.
These would be for walls for a house or cabin.
I assume I can just go by the cant calculator to get the log sizes I need, or am I missing something.
In other words I would need 11.3 in minimum tops to make a 8 in 3 sided log.
8.5 in for 6 in logs.
I am assuming this would be with no wane.
Most people would want the top and bottom of each log to be flat so they can stack them easier so you will want to figure that into the diameter you will need. With perfectly straight logs the 11.3 figure would only allow 3.3 inches of flat for both top and bottom, take the saw kerf out and you'd be looking at .6 for each which isn't enough in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong but I would shoot for and extra 2 inches at least.
I guess I am missing something.(not that unusual)
According to the log size calculator, to make a 8X8 cant, it takes a 11.3 in top on a, I assume perfectly straight log, where all four sides would be flat.
I have never tried making the 3 sided logs, but wouldn't you basically just make a can't, except leaving the best side natural?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20727/Pythagagorus~0.gif)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20727/cosine.gif)
perfect log no kerf.
yes that would work
I would go a little larger on the logs
Dan
I see what you are getting at, Looking at that, I suppose the log size/cant calculator is figuring on at least some wane on the cants.
I have found the log calculator to work pretty good. Just remember that it doesn't allow for the sawyer to make an error on his entry cut either. If you are shooting for no wane get some slightly bigger logs than the minimum. Banjo
Quote from: starmac on November 25, 2015, 04:29:23 PM
I guess I am missing something.(not that unusual)
According to the log size calculator, to make a 8X8 cant, it takes a 11.3 in top on a, I assume perfectly straight log, where all four sides would be flat.
I have never tried making the 3 sided logs, but wouldn't you basically just make a cant, except leaving the best side natural?
In a nutshell, yes. I agree with Banjo too. Look for a bit extra for that "fudge factor." On many logs you might need Tmarch's 2" or more. Perfect logs are few and far between.
I do this all the time. For a perfect log (does not exist) take the cant size, 4x4 6x6 etc and multiply that size by 1.414. So, for a 10x10 the absolute minimum is 14.14 inches. Better get one a bit larger.
My son and I are going the same thing. Are you going to use green pine.If so how are you going to dry it. We are planning to cut them ,let them dry and see if they stay straight.
We are going to try either dovetail or half dovetail,which ever we master. Are you going to stack them flat to flat or tongue and groove.
The first ones are not for my personal use, if I decide to saw them. The guy wants to use what he calls poplar, others call it aspen. I am not 100% sure what it is we actually have, as it is not what we had for aspen in NM, Az and Co. He also wansts some out of spruce.
These will just be stacked flat.
There is an out fit not far from here that makes them tongue and groove, what I understand from some of the builders, is that you need to put the walls up pretty quick, or you will wind up cutting the grooves off. lol
I wanting to build a house for us, but I am leaning towards 8 in square logs instead of 3 sided.
Thanks for your reply. We are going to make a trial run tomorrow. Let us know how you are progressing and we will do the same.thanks again.
For our cabin we made 8x10, dovetailed with northerndovetailer jig, I had mostly 14 inch tops and bigger, which worked very well. We did use a couple of 12 to 13 inch but ended up with a little wany, but that just put character in the log. The big thing would be on a dovetail is not to have wane in the inside of the joint, need more chinking to fill it.
Have fun cutting the D logs. The first cut is important. Level the heart of the log on you mill. Use a measuringt tape to find the mid point of the log. If you are cutting 8 inch D logs add 4 inches plus kerf to make your first cut. Flip log 180 degrees make second cut. You will now have your top and bottom cut. Flip log so the D side is face down and make your third cut. Pay attention to how you set up the log. You want the bevel of the D face to run consistently down the center, for consistent easy to match up logs.
Question when cutting and laying up the "D" cut logs... do you strive to get the top and bottom faces nearly the same width, so the wall is flat on the inside and the curved faces line up pretty much on the outside?? This would accommodate different diameter logs and seemingly simplify the sawing. Might not be so great with internal growth stresses, but sawing the "inside" face last may help overcome them.
Dean, it will be later in the spring before I will cut any at all. So looking forward to see how your's works out for you.
One question of yours that I didn't answer is, here many houses are built out of green logs, they just accomade the shrinking with they way the house is trimmed out. There are a few built out of dead standing timber.
Dave, thanks for the instructions. I had planned to get with the original owner of my mill, as he made a living cutting 3 sided logs with it.
Beenthere. We are very lucky with our white spruce, as most of it has very little stress, at least that has been my experience so far.
Also lucky that straight logs are plentiful.
I am also lucky in the fact that I haul logs all winter and can buy any load I want to, so can kind of pick and choose, to a point. I just have to come up with a way to unload them safely.
My friend wants to make a bunch of 3 sided 6 in logs out of aspen/popular. I havent cut any, so that may be a whole different animal.
Well, I'm gona have to read this thread again, with a large brandy, to see if I can get just a little more out of it.
Beenthere, yes you want to keep the top and bottom roughly the same size. I have cut approximately 40,000 board feet of 10 inch D logs. I aimed to have 8-9 inches on the stacking surface, (top and bottom) and to have 12 to 13 inches of thickness from the D surface to the inside of the wall. If you are cutting 8 inch D logs I would aim for 7 inches on the stacking surface and around 10 inches front to back. Hope this helps. Keep in mind the size of log will influence your stacking side dimension and overall thickness as a larger log will have a flatter curve to the D surface. I found that a large log was not my friend and best cut up into timbers or lumber.
Dave, when you are setting up for the last cut, with the curved, or natural side on the bunks, where would you measure from for your cut?
In other words, say for an 8 in log, would you judt make your cut 10 inches and stack with the inside flat, or am I missing something?
Yes, in general cut at 10 inches. Sometimes you may need to cut higher or lower to keep your stacking side around 7 inches. What I mean by this is a smaller log just big enough to get your D log out of it will have more curve to the D face. You may have to cut higher then 10 inches maybe 10.5 or 11. For a larger log you will have a flatter D face then you may want to cut slightly less the 10 inches. You want to keep the inside wall flat. And you want to keep the stacking sides fairly close to the same dimension. The rest of the D face does not matter if it is all the same. Think of it this way. The inside of the wall can be your finnished wall for the house, only needing some staining. On the outside when you are stacking your logs if you stack a log with 6 inches on the stacking side on top of a log 8 inches on the stacking side this will cause an area that water can sit and rot your log. So try to average everything out.
Thinks, that is pretty much how I had it worked in my mind, but it isn't always reliable. lol
No problem. Happy milling.
I've done a few of these, what dimension are you shooting for in the wall thickness and rise? And whatever size you decide on, there are many ways to go about it. The logs I had were big enough to yield two D-logs most of the time, so I ended up with some very usable outside lumber as well. Whatever you size you decide on, if possible, you may want to make the opposite side of the bark heavy leaving a dog board, but this will ensure a parallel face to the bark when you make the sizing cut, keeping the bark side on the bed rails. I found out to speed up the process to take heavy wedge cuts off moving these off to the side while making the rise dimension, then splitting heavy, moving this one off, then paralleling to the bark to the desired size, then the other, then the wedges, which yielded a few 2x4's and 2x6"s . After a few logs you will figure out how you want to approach it for what you want to yield. It's kinda hard to describe in a short post. Hope this helps, pm if you'd like, I will add, its not that bad, just a feel thing you will get after a few under the belt.
If I am planning on 6x8 logs is it best to use trees that are just big enough to get one log out of. This would mean that they would all have the heart of the tree in every log. Is this a bad thing?
How close to the bark can you go and still have good wood? I have a lot of questions and I thank everyone for their i put.
Starmac I will let you know how the first log turns out tomorrow.
Here is a small cabin that I sawed the logs for .... not D logs, but you can see from the end grain that the customer got all the "logs" he could get out of each log.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20150620_124802.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20150620_124749.jpg) It turned out pretty nice. He did a good job.
Banjo
For some reason I didn't get the pics , just the post
Pic just come thru, that , looks really good banjo. How old is it, and did you cut the dovetails they look really good too
All I did was saw the logs... :) The customer cut the joints and put it up back behind his house, as a small guest house. Its probably about two years old. He is a really nice guy. Banjo
Drrobertson. It is a customer that wants these. The ones he wants out of popple/aspen will be 6 inchers.
He wants some 8 inchers out of spruce.
I am leaning towards 8 in square or 8X10 foursided for my own use.
It is good info, how you get logs out of one log, but for our use, we should be able to get enough at the right size for one, and save the bigger logs for timbers ro X10's, 12's etc.
You may as well figure on using 12" dia logs, and pic the straightest ones you can get. You will end up with some outside lumber. Hope all goes well for you, it is fun.
Getting 12,13 in tops from the guys I haul for should be no problem.
We are pretty lucky or spoiled with the spruce, as most if it is pretty straight. I have not hauled, or even been around the popple being logged, but I'm sure it won't be as nice to deal with as the spruce.
for 8" building stock, you can get by with smaller it just takes some looking over before each one is started. The length is the other issue, even a slight sweep on smaller saw logs over 12' can eat your lunch with wane at times. It still is fun, just some head scratching with each saw log, at least for me. I sawed out one for a fellow for beams like banjo picker showed, 16' 6x10's mostly all heart centered, they turned out good off the mill, but have heard since that all the early rains and humidity he had caused issues with molding, on top of some bowing and twisting, which can happen with SYP, but from the pictures I saw, his dove tails looked as tight as banjo's,, so I guess this is why the early builders used chinking when building this style of log cabins.
Most of the spruce here is pretty forgiving it seems like.
The builders here do not use any chinking, except for looks, they do lay a piece of fiberglass insulation about four inches wide and a 1/2 in thick or so on top and let the weight of the next log mash it down, it is not visable once the next log is set on.
I cut some 6X6's and a couple of 8X8's plus several 4X6's and 12' just playing and learning to use the mill last summer, and even though they were just sit on some dunnage, they stayed straight. There was very little cupping on 1 X8 and 10's Even though, I never properly stacked and stickered it.
Every now and then I would find a log with some tension, from now on they will be used for firewood. lol
Close to the same here, an insulating foam type insulator/vapor barrier. Mainly used between concrete stem walls and treated sill plates. It works, so it looks like you are in for it, no question there are dwellings with a lot less prep work that has stood the test of time.. one fact for sure, log cabins need maintenance, but what dwelling does not,,
Personally I like the looks of square with chinking better than anything other than natural logs. If and when I build my own, I think this is what I am going with, unless the better half changes my mind. I love the natural full scribed look, but I don't see myself doing that at this stage in life.
I cut a 6"x 8" yesterday it looked pretty good for the first one. I'm going to cut a 6"x12" next , I think its going to look better.
We have lived in a Satterwhite log house for 20 years and we love it . We have porches all the way around so the logs never get wet unless there is a lot of wind. But it need resealing about every 5-7 years
I was going to add to this discussion but was also going to add a picture. I have to admit, I have been able to figure out how to post pictures in the past but at this point, it really isn't worth the effort. This is the most difficult forum to post on.
Quote from: edkemper on November 28, 2015, 03:51:29 PM
I was going to add to this discussion but was also going to add a picture. I have to admit, I have been able to figure out how to post pictures in the past but at this point, it really isn't worth the effort. This is the most difficult forum to post on.
I had a very hard time at the beginning also.
When your done typing your message click on the add photos to post in the blue below.
Then when the next page pops up click on the little blue arrow that say select album.
Pick your upload folder.
Then click brouse.
Find your picture file from your computer files and then click on upload file.
After your picture comes in so you can see it move way down the page and click on insert picture in your post.
Thats it.... Your done. Oh... Dont forget to click on the post button.
Don't even have to move way down the page.. the URL to click just below the pic will highlight it. Then just do a copy and paste... easy as pie. Click on the "preview" button before post, to see that the pic is right the way you want it.
If the pic is in .jpg format on your computer, it is easy.
Have to agree edkemper
And I would have to disagree.
The FF by far has the easiest and most organized picture posting procedure of any forum that I post on or have ever posted on. Anytime that I want to post a previously posted picture, I click on my gallery, go to the folder, and click on the picture. I can also use the picture search and locate the thread where it was previously posted.
It's so simple a caveman 72 year old man can do it. ;D
If you really want easy check out how thet do it here.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/index.php
Another very good forum.
I would like to see some pics of the houses without chink. That is how my wife and I want to do ours next spring using the sill seal and no chink. Finding plans on a dove tail jig for this set up is hard.
On youtube there are many illustrations of dove tail fixtures and how to's, just about anything you would need to see, even saddle joints with explanations, fascinating stuff to look at and study while forming so of your own ideas.
Quote from: Kbeitz on November 28, 2015, 10:18:27 PM
If you really want easy check out how thet do it here.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/index.php
Another very good forum.
Looks like one needs to become a member to see how easy it is :D
Me too Outer Rondacker. That is what my son wants to do. I found some videos on youtube, but I need some specific plans like angles and the best size log to use. This is going to be a very fun project.
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on November 29, 2015, 07:45:47 AM
Quote from: Kbeitz on November 28, 2015, 10:18:27 PM
If you really want easy check out how thet do it here.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/index.php
Another very good forum.
Looks like one needs to become a member to see how easy it is :D
Sorry...
This is what it looks like.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/post.jpg)
Drobertson I have looked around on YT and still have yet to find the plans-angles of the dove tail cuts for 8wx12tall. The few I have found showing builds are not of flat sitting with no space or chink gap walls. I will keep up the search and learning but please if you have links or good vids by all means share them. Thanks
I'm not sure what the issue is but here is a step by step process laid out for posting pictures.
It really only takes less than a minute to post a photo after you've done it a few times.
The picture posting procedure is not going to change here. The reasons for that have been mentioned many times over.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,61788.0/all.html
I'm sure it wont change but that does not make it easyer.
I might be the different operating systems that makes it hard.
I don't like changes and I'm still using XP.
I can not load more than one picture at a time and lots of times it errors out.
I learned the hard way to copy my post before I hit the post button or I might loose everything.
I think one part that the new people have problems with is that they need to make a folder first
to put there pictures in. And there needs to be a message telling people that and telling them
that they need to open or choose that folder before uploading.
I know this has been talked about many times but I think talking about it helps the newbees.
We have members who post pictures on their 1st and second post.
Some people don't like to read instructions so then videos are made to show step by step.
The third and 5th time they spend complaining about it gets old because they don't want to read the directions. Hundreds of hours have been spent trying to make things easy only to get criticized on how it should be done.
Then the next new member comes and has a different way and things should conform to the way they like to do it and your way will be wrong.
Quote from: Kbeitz on November 29, 2015, 08:28:45 AM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on November 29, 2015, 07:45:47 AM
Quote from: Kbeitz on November 28, 2015, 10:18:27 PM
If you really want easy check out how thet do it here.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/index.php
Another very good forum.
Looks like one needs to become a member to see how easy it is :D
Sorry...
This is what it looks like.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/post.jpg)
Thanks. But there's no sawmills there. :D Even though it looks like Beenthere might be there it doesn't feel like home. :)
I am even there....somewhere. ;D
I see him above in Kbeitz's post, sitting on his green tractor.
In spite of some feeling I'm a complete moron, I've successfully posted pictures in the past. I've also failed to get pictures posted in the past. I am not a moron (with a doctorate) and am pretty good at following instructions. I'm happy to hear that others, some first timers were able to post pictures. That makes all the difference to me. >:(
Just for fun, I will carry this hijacked thread one more step,, posting pics is easy, real easy, follow the directions, much like building a wally world piece of crap shelf from china,, once you get it it all makes sense, just dont go too fast and strip out anything ;D or stress out anything ;D