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CTL Market

Started by nativewolf, April 29, 2019, 08:58:55 AM

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RT roosting

Yeah I thought about the possibility of a high hour cheap loader.  That way if it works drivers could load themselves, reducing down time of machine.  For pine we generally cut ply multiples 17' 25' etc... and sawmill lengths 10, 12, 14, 16, and multiples.  

We generally get about 50' of logs out of our pine and then 20 feet of pulp per stem.  I figured most of the cut lengths would be in the 16' to 25' range.    

Claybraker

What about smaller tracts, 10 acres or so. Leave a few TPA for a seed source for regeneration and aesthetic value. Operating at the margins is an easy way to go broke slowly, but figuring a way to profitably exploit an underserved market can be quite profitable, or so I've heard.

snowstorm

Quote from: nativewolf on April 29, 2019, 08:58:55 AM
We've had a few discussions on the topic of Cut-to-Length machines and I thought I'd start a thread to discuss some of the trends.  

Just painting a picture:  Sort of three harvesting methods competing in the US.  Whole tree- Feller buncher, skidder, slasher/loader.  Shovel Logging- feller, excavator, processors, and CTL- processor & forwarder.  


  • We've seen a giant contraction in the number of manufacturers of skidders, down to Tigercat and JohnDeere for the most part- which is odd because there are more feller buncher manufactures than skidder manufacturers.  I have heard that the total skidder sales volume was less than 1000 units in the US in 2018- despite a steady timber market.  If the global market is moving away from skidders I could see it being an every more niche market with support challenges and lack of innovation.  
  • Shovel logging, started in PNW, is moving into the south instead of CTL and I find that interesting as well.  Shovel logging often still uses a processor on the landing so that is a real difference for some loggers-in the environmentally challenging coastal plain shovel logging may be a winner in large plantation clearcuts. Shovel logging obviously would not work in thinning, it's a clearcut process so something to watch if it gains more market share.  It would mean a bifurcation of harvesting teams, has this already happened in the PNW.  @Skeans1 and others might jump it
  • Globally the CTL market seems to be booming; Ponsse sold 300 units in Russia alone last year.  That's a combination of Forwarders and Harvesters.  If Ponsse is selling that many than JD and Komatsu are likely very close.  That would put the Russian market at nearly 1000 units by itself.  Virtually no skidders being sold there anymore from what I hear.  

CTL tidbits in no particular order:

Another note on processors.  I hear that some mills in the south are now requiring that their loggers have processors on the landing which I think may hasten some change.  

Locally and very relevant to me: Tigercat dealer was unable to show me a forwarder in person, turns out there are 2 new tigercat forwarders in the US and one was made in 2018.  Seems to me that Tigercat is having trouble figuring out a market placement.  They have some great tracked harvester machines but boggie driven harvesters and forwarders seem to challenge them.  The manager in the local dealer was great, very responsive.  Just clear that CTL was not something they have experience or backing to support.

Komatsu, JD, Ponsse are the clear 123 in Europe and the NA markets, just depends on location to determine rank.  Even in Finland JD still gets a nice chunk of the market share (behind Ponsse) which I find interesting.  Here in NA Ponsse has a very strong resale value but is hampered by the lack of equipment financing (ask me how I know  :() and high initial prices. In the south things are different: JD and Komatsu have the financing but dealer support is still lacking they appear to do well in the PNW where dealers offer better support.  Ponsse mobile support teams might be an option for JD and Komatsu and give loggers the comfort to know they will not be stranded with millions of dollars in equipment in the field.  
1 of those tigercat forwarders was in bangor me last week for the show

snowstorm

along with the owner of tigercat

nativewolf

@snowstorm Yep I've taken a look at them, they looked ok.  The tigercat dealer in Virginia, a big dealer in tigercat skidders, loaders, harvesting machines has never sold one.  They did look around the US for ones for me to demo.  That's how I know they had 2 new ones for sale on dealer lots.  

Interesting thing though, in the Richmond VA logging expo Tigercat also came with a 1075.  I am beginning to think it is a demo machine  :D.  

When the dealer manager says..."well maybe a Tigercat forwarder in VA is not the most logical thing"....you have an issue. 

In other news Ponsse US market share is now at 53%.  Komatsu has been paying most of that market share loss and Ponsse has been the beneficiary.  
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Skeans1

@nativewolf 
Did they say how much of that is just from one operator?

makeri_drvr

We tried CTL in the 80's in VA. Thinning pine cutting 8ft post. There is no incentive for mills to subsidize the higher cost lower production of CTL. Most are set up for tree length now. Mills don't care about stand improvement because very few own any timberland anymore. The heavy underbrush in the South is hard on processors. A traditional sawhead is just tougher. I also found the short steep ground gave the forwarder a problem. Now I was using Iron Mules and a Lokomo Makeri that were small machines nothing like the stuff available now. But after owning it and trying to make it work and working on a high production conventional crew I wouldn't try CTL again. 

nativewolf

@makeri_drvr  Welcome to the forum.  Sounds like you may know @wudman.  In the most productive pine plantation area  (coastal GA) in the US they are changing from whole tree to CTL, so either a CTL operation or a processor on landing.  Plusses and minuses 
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mike_belben

Theres nothing wrong with a buncher and knuckleboom.  

The economics will not change much until a government entity forces them to change.  There are too many sawmills for any one to dictate the whole market, atleast in NC and TN in my opinion.

  If i own a paid off conventional iron quiver and the mill tells me its time i borrow a half million for CTL gear to suit their needs, im shaking hands, walking out the door for the last time, selling it all off and buying a few end dumps. Loggin aint the only way to earn a livin.  If the mill wants CTL they can buy the gear themselves. 
Praise The Lord

nativewolf

I see in the latest edition of Timberline that 3 loggers in the Mississippi and Alabama have put waratah on the landings.  

@Skeans1 also sent me a link to the latest Komatsu head which is supposed to compete against the h8hd head and even go on a tracked machine.  Not out yet, due in early 2020.  

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barbender

I saw that too- I don't really consider that "CTL" myself when it's just a processor working on the landing. I don't doubt it works for them, but why wouldn't a pull through and a deck saw work the same?
Too many irons in the fire

nativewolf

The mill owner is requiring all logs are processed, ie cut with a processor head instead of a bucksaw.  
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Skeans1

Quote from: barbender on June 22, 2019, 09:06:17 PM
I saw that too- I don't really consider that "CTL" myself when it's just a processor working on the landing. I don't doubt it works for them, but why wouldn't a pull through and a deck saw work the same?
It's no different then up here speed, size of the landing, and you have another machine that can load or shovel turns out with. 

barbender

NW, hypothetical question here- if it meets specs how can they tell the difference? I get if they're cutting company properties they can have equipment requirements or preferences, but on open market wood if the length, diameter and sweep are good and limbs trimmed flush, how can they turn it away? "We need to see some feed roller marks on these?"😊 I know there's treelength crews in middle Georgia that are shipping wood that they are hand bucking with a tape and a chainsaw. One fellow would like to get a CTL contract crew down there again, he thinks things are finally in place for it to take off. Maybe the roadside processor will be the answer for down there, they are definitely more gorilla proof. 
  I don't know if you saw the Timberline magazine article, I think it was this winter, that featured Grand Marais, MN logger Stan Nelson. He was running 2 Ponsse Scorpion Kings and an Elephant and Buffalo forwarders. He packed up this winter and headed to near Savannah, GA to cut for one of the mills down there. We'll see how it works out. It helps us up here- the markets suck and everyone that bags up or leaves helps the rest of us out😁
Too many irons in the fire

Riwaka

I don't know if this was posted earlier on here? ponsse simulator for log cutting at the stump etc


At the moment the machine operator training is training for a specific machine. 
The John Deere simulator that does the JD wheeled harvester/ forwarder functions is around us$80K . The JD tracked loaders and wheeled/ tracked feller buncher simulators were mentioned the other day and there is a waratah simulator too.

Jussi the Ponsse trainer and the Ponsse  simulator.
ReadyQuipPONSSE - YouTube

nativewolf

Quote from: barbender on June 22, 2019, 11:28:21 PM
NW, hypothetical question here- if it meets specs how can they tell the difference? I get if they're cutting company properties they can have equipment requirements or preferences, but on open market wood if the length, diameter and sweep are good and limbs trimmed flush, how can they turn it away? "We need to see some feed roller marks on these?"😊 I know there's treelength crews in middle Georgia that are shipping wood that they are hand bucking with a tape and a chainsaw. One fellow would like to get a CTL contract crew down there again, he thinks things are finally in place for it to take off. Maybe the roadside processor will be the answer for down there, they are definitely more gorilla proof.
 I don't know if you saw the Timberline magazine article, I think it was this winter, that featured Grand Marais, MN logger Stan Nelson. He was running 2 Ponsse Scorpion Kings and an Elephant and Buffalo forwarders. He packed up this winter and headed to near Savannah, GA to cut for one of the mills down there. We'll see how it works out. It helps us up here- the markets suck and everyone that bags up or leaves helps the rest of us out😁
I assume that the precision on the top cut and log length is a tell tale sign but more telling would be not having one on landing and mill buyer inspecting landing and it is in your contract.  Mostly though, I would think (you tell me) that it would show on the specific precision of the cut lengths and diameters.  
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barbender

NW, I guess the point I was trying to make, and perhaps more of a question, is whether they are demanding it is run through a processor? The sense I get from the guys in GA is that the mills want it cut to length now. Maybe a better term would be "bucked"? From what I understand, they want it pre-bucked now. Most stuff in GA was tree length previously, now the mills are looking for logs pre-bucked to their specs, and they must not care about how it's done- as I mentioned prior the one crew is hand bucking.
Too many irons in the fire

nativewolf

Quote from: barbender on June 29, 2019, 01:02:43 AM
NW, I guess the point I was trying to make, and perhaps more of a question, is whether they are demanding it is run through a processor? The sense I get from the guys in GA is that the mills want it cut to length now. Maybe a better term would be "bucked"? From what I understand, they want it pre-bucked now. Most stuff in GA was tree length previously, now the mills are looking for logs pre-bucked to their specs, and they must not care about how it's done- as I mentioned prior the one crew is hand bucking.
Oh gotch...could be.  The mill spec changes constantly though...I don't know I thought it was also no more pull through delimbers?  And @kiko might know better...did they require a processor or not?  
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WDH

There is Company in Georgia, a Canadian company, Interfor, that owns and operates seven sawmills.  They require that all logs be cut to pre-set multiples.  The way that they are bucked to length does not matter.  Some loggers have gone to processors, others use ground saws.  When I had timber cut last year, The logger had a ground saw which is a chainsaw bar operated tremotely by the loader operator.  The determine the pre-set lengths, they pounded t-posts in the ground so they they could pull the butt even with the proper t-post and buck the log with the ground saw. 

In 2016, I had a tract of 30 year-old planted pine clearcut.  The process was to fell the trees with a feller buncher, skid to the landing with one grapple skidder, de-limb and cut to length with a processor, and load the trucks with a knuckleboom loader.  This crew was getting 14 loads per day with this set up. 

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Skeans1

I think one more thing need to be cleared up there CTL or Cut To Length which is an in the woods process of falling the truck, limbing and then bucking the log at the stump. There is also Tree Length yarding with road side processing which is a very common process, most have a processor sitting back behind the sort piles limbing the trees through well bucking/sorting the logs.

nativewolf

@Skeans1 Absolutely right, sorry to confuse anyone.  I am just watching trends and this addition of processing heads on the landing is different (for the south) and could make it easier for someone to market wood cut via a CTL process.  So absolutely right that this is not CTL ...just using some of the same technology in the process on the landing only.  
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Skeans1

@nativewolf 
Possibly but less likely unless you're going to be doing lengths like we do on the forwarders and if the land owner wants all that slash left like that personally I wouldn't unless it's a thinning.

Riwaka

Rayonier that operates in a few places (HQ-Atlanta) are looking at volume 'scaling' rather than weight of logs over a weighbridge.

The processor allows for near continuous diameter measurements down the stem. If the volume of the log is 'measured' and the individual log identified and then the sum of the individual volumes of the logs put on the truck, you can tell the mill accurately what volume is headed their way.
The truck does not need to go over the weighbridge (so often?)

Accurate volume of wood fibre might be a better than weights that vary with mud and moisture levels etc. 



kiko

I know I am a pessimist about this whole CTL or stationary processing. With out more pay for the logger per ton it is unaffordable in this market, with this labor pool, and proprietary software.  This idea for calculating volume at the landing... when there is a CAN failure between the many modules to bring this
data from the joystick buttons to the mill office the cost of maintenance and repair will fall on the logger; just to have the right to sell a product that they cannot demand their price. Everybody down the chain makes money until the logger, and he makes just enough to pay the bills,sometimes, unless he has quota and inventory. Commercial chicken farming is the same game.  You can refuse a price on your cows. 

nativewolf

@kiko That is actually how I feel about most logging, CTL or Whole Tree.  I think most guys in south harvesting for big mills are little more than slaves.  They need to wise up and unionize or leave logging or something.  Most of the loggers have tremendous debts and having spent several months with various bankers it was the universal feeling that if I was opening a sawmill they were much more interested, because sawmills have done well in the bankers eyes. Loggers...not so much.  I suppose free market will take care of this in the long wrong but the free market is pretty brutal in that process, families are ruined in a business so centered around small family operations.
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