The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service



Author Topic: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people  (Read 2040 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4606
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Joliet, IL and Indy
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« on: September 02, 2021, 10:25:52 PM »
I wanted to tell my difficult customer story after reading:  Customer requested discount...after the job was done...

This happened last summer and is the best to my recollection.  I know I had posted for some help on the board while this was going on, but not sure If I told the whole story?

I don't normally saw for others, but I made a deal with a tree service guy to trade him hours of his chipping for hours of my sawing some logs for him.  He brought one of his guys and they did my chipping in 9 man hours including travel.  I help speed them up by bring my banded piles of edgings and small slabs to him so he didn't have to move the chipping more than once.  He'd only sent me a small pic of his 6 logs.  They looked small in the pics and given what I could see in the photo, I figured about 7 hours to saw them.  I told him based on the picture I thought maybe 7 hours, but that was just and estimate based on the picture and it could be double that.  It was also based on cutting 2-2.5" slabs.  Well when he brought them (on a different day) they were much bigger  than they looked.  We had a discussion that the best two oak logs should be quarter sawn into boards.  I told him that was going to costs significantly more time, but it would be much nicer product for him. He gave the go ahead knowing the hourly rate.  I also told him that prep work was also needed to his logs as the logs needed thumbs trimmed and debarking.  I also needed to Timbor the wood to keep the boring beetles away.  I explained PPB to him.  With the go ahead it was clearly stated it was going to be over the original 7 hours, but I couldn't say how much. I started with the quarter sawing, doing RRQS.  They were my 4th and 5th time doing RRQS.  Well those two logs, with trimming prep, debarking, RRQS, , dust removal, Timbor, and stickering and banding  16 hours.  I did it like I do my own wood. The other 3 slabbed logs took  8 hours.  I knew I was in trouble after the RRQS logs time-wise.  It took a lot longer than I thought and I'm sure more than what he would have figured.  So I called him after the RRQS logs and told him how long I've spent but that the lumber was VERY nice, which it was.  I was ready to eat the extra time I'd already spent(16 hours-his 9 man hours) and stop here, or I could continue and slab the remaining logs and charge hourly ($60), which I thought was being very generous.  He balked at the cost so I said well, do you want me to keep Timbor'ing the wood? I recommended it, but he said no and to keep sawing.  Again, the original deal was to swap hours for hours, and I'd have to charge for anything above that, and I've already given away 7 hours.  

So I continued, and I removed all sawdust, stickered and banded all the slabs as I knew if I didn't, he likely wouldn't heed my warning and he 'd leave them and they'd mold and rot.  So I probably had another 11 hours in those.  I told him that but that I'd cut that down to 8 hours. so total would be $480.  Then he grumbled and balked referring to his time and equipment costs, and my original estimate that I thought I would be able to do it as an equal swap...  keep in mind I had prefaced everything with "from what I can see in the picture", which was a poor picture with little perspective.  I had clearly stated how the deal would work if it took more time, and I kept him up to date as I want along.  I had told him how much time I had in the job going along, but maybe he didn't believe me or didn't want to believe me?  In any case he continued to give the go ahead.  So after I had cut 10 total hours off (which was actually more but I didn't count everything), he was still unhappy.  I stood my ground on the phone and "that is was it was".  He finally agreed and we set a day for him come and load.  He had left his trailer but I wasn't putting anything on the trailer until he paid.  Also I wanted him to help dictate how he wanted his trailer loaded.

So the day he comes he again grumbles about the cost and it was clear he didn't want to pay anything.  It was clear he thought his time was highly valuable and either didn't believe how much time had in it, or didn't think my time was highly valuable.  He did ask at one point the cost of my mill, and at another point mentioned the cost of his truck and chipper.  Maybe that was his basis? He had more money in his equipment?  I don't know.  Well by that point I was tired of hearing it.  Between the phone call and his pick up day I thought of a solution to offer him that could benefit us both.  So I said, I'll make you an offer and it's up to you.  You can pay me what we agreed to on the phone,$480, or I can keep the Quarter sawn oak lumber and we'll call it done.  He thought about it and said he would like 4 of the QS boards and it's a deal.  

That is what we did.  The quarter sawn lumber was worth much more than $480 to me, so in my mind it made up for a few of the extra hours I had cut off.  He was happy not to have to pay any cash and he got all the slabs he wanted for countertops he wanted to make(Cherry and oak), plus enough QS boards for some shelves his wife wanted.  I had showed him the figure in the QS, but he still took my deal.  

I do not like dealing with people like that.  
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline WV Sawmiller

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10926
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Hinton WV
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Green's Sawmill Services
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 10:47:58 PM »
Brad,

   Sorry for the "learning" experience but glad you guys were able to resolve it. Obviously you learned some lessons such as getting more details such as the sizes of the logs. You made suggestions such as Tim Bor and quarter sawing which took longer and apparently neither you or he renegotiated before making this change. How long would the job have taken if you had simply sawed the originally planned 2-2.5 inch slabs?

   I have had plenty of "learning" experiences but few have been hugely negative. At least the next time I encountered a similar situation I knew better how to describe and quote the job.

   This week I turned down a job I had discussed with a man 100 miles away. I just never had a warm and fuzzy because of the distance and his concerns about costs and an uncertain response on the helper he'd have to provide. I came across another sawyer nearer hoping they would be able to handle the job and called and he gave me another contact also close by. Turned out that sawyer had sawed for the same guy and the site was difficult to access, the logs were full of metal and he had no help. Even after I told the customer I was declining the job he called back later and wanted me to find him someone else. If he calls again I'll tell him to bring them to me knowing he won't do that. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8698
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2021, 11:11:09 PM »
I steer clear of the bartering just because of these kinds of scenarios. I would approach it as, "how much for you to come over and chip my slabs etc?", and just get a dollar amount. If he wants some sawing done, it's x amount  an hour or whatever. 
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Lasershark

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Age: 48
  • Location: British Columbia; Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2021, 11:21:11 PM »
I wanted to tell my difficult customer story after reading:  Customer requested discount...after the job was done...

This happened last summer and is the best to my recollection.  I know I had posted for some help on the board while this was going on, but not sure If I told the whole story?

I don't normally saw for others, but I made a deal with a tree service guy to trade him hours of his chipping for hours of my sawing some logs for him.  He brought one of his guys and they did my chipping in 9 man hours including travel.  I help speed them up by bring my banded piles of edgings and small slabs to him so he didn't have to move the chipping more than once.  He'd only sent me a small pic of his 6 logs.  They looked small in the pics and given what I could see in the photo, I figured about 7 hours to saw them.  I told him based on the picture I thought maybe 7 hours, but that was just and estimate based on the picture and it could be double that.  It was also based on cutting 2-2.5" slabs.  Well when he brought them (on a different day) they were much bigger  than they looked.  We had a discussion that the best two oak logs should be quarter sawn into boards.  I told him that was going to costs significantly more time, but it would be much nicer product for him. He gave the go ahead knowing the hourly rate.  I also told him that prep work was also needed to his logs as the logs needed thumbs trimmed and debarking.  I also needed to Timbor the wood to keep the boring beetles away.  I explained PPB to him.  With the go ahead it was clearly stated it was going to be over the original 7 hours, but I couldn't say how much. I started with the quarter sawing, doing RRQS.  They were my 4th and 5th time doing RRQS.  Well those two logs, with trimming prep, debarking, RRQS, , dust removal, Timbor, and stickering and banding  16 hours.  I did it like I do my own wood. The other 3 slabbed logs took  8 hours.  I knew I was in trouble after the RRQS logs time-wise.  It took a lot longer than I thought and I'm sure more than what he would have figured.  So I called him after the RRQS logs and told him how long I've spent but that the lumber was VERY nice, which it was.  I was ready to eat the extra time I'd already spent(16 hours-his 9 man hours) and stop here, or I could continue and slab the remaining logs and charge hourly ($60), which I thought was being very generous.  He balked at the cost so I said well, do you want me to keep Timbor'ing the wood? I recommended it, but he said no and to keep sawing.  Again, the original deal was to swap hours for hours, and I'd have to charge for anything above that, and I've already given away 7 hours.  

So I continued, and I removed all sawdust, stickered and banded all the slabs as I knew if I didn't, he likely wouldn't heed my warning and he 'd leave them and they'd mold and rot.  So I probably had another 11 hours in those.  I told him that but that I'd cut that down to 8 hours. so total would be $480.  Then he grumbled and balked referring to his time and equipment costs, and my original estimate that I thought I would be able to do it as an equal swap...  keep in mind I had prefaced everything with "from what I can see in the picture", which was a poor picture with little perspective.  I had clearly stated how the deal would work if it took more time, and I kept him up to date as I want along.  I had told him how much time I had in the job going along, but maybe he didn't believe me or didn't want to believe me?  In any case he continued to give the go ahead.  So after I had cut 10 total hours off (which was actually more but I didn't count everything), he was still unhappy.  I stood my ground on the phone and "that is was it was".  He finally agreed and we set a day for him come and load.  He had left his trailer but I wasn't putting anything on the trailer until he paid.  Also I wanted him to help dictate how he wanted his trailer loaded.

So the day he comes he again grumbles about the cost and it was clear he didn't want to pay anything.  It was clear he thought his time was highly valuable and either didn't believe how much time had in it, or didn't think my time was highly valuable.  He did ask at one point the cost of my mill, and at another point mentioned the cost of his truck and chipper.  Maybe that was his basis? He had more money in his equipment?  I don't know.  Well by that point I was tired of hearing it.  Between the phone call and his pick up day I thought of a solution to offer him that could benefit us both.  So I said, I'll make you an offer and it's up to you.  You can pay me what we agreed to on the phone,$480, or I can keep the Quarter sawn oak lumber and we'll call it done.  He thought about it and said he would like 4 of the QS boards and it's a deal.  

That is what we did.  The quarter sawn lumber was worth much more than $480 to me, so in my mind it made up for a few of the extra hours I had cut off.  He was happy not to have to pay any cash and he got all the slabs he wanted for countertops he wanted to make(Cherry and oak), plus enough QS boards for some shelves his wife wanted.  I had showed him the figure in the QS, but he still took my deal.  

I do not like dealing with people like that.  
Sounds like the perfect storm of thriftiness and entitlement. It just goes to show you can't do too much "value-adding" or you'll get taken advantage of by someone who has no idea what it takes to make boards out of logs
2020 LT-50 Wide, 38 HP Gas, with debarker, lubemiser and laser sight,  2002 Dodge Ram, Husquvarna 365 chainsaw, comealong, couple cant hooks and a strong back.

Offline stavebuyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1353
  • Location: KY
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2021, 04:41:41 AM »
Sawmills seem to attract a high ratio of cheapskates looking for a deal. Low income areas eliminate many of the potential customers who would not flinch at the opportunity to pay a fair rate for something unique.

Small timers get to experience the joys of retail. Production gets you the joys of employees, insurance mandates, and little government tyrants.

I did more than enough of both. At times I miss running my firewood processor and my mill. Then I remember the equipment sales funded the purchase of my river hideaway. 



 

Now I deal with trespassers instead of cheapskate customers. They are cut from the same cloth(wanting something without paying or working for it). At least I don't have to go through pretense of being polite with trespassers.




Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Age: 69
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2021, 05:51:38 AM »
 
 To be honest, how can it take 16 hours to saw 2 logs.  I'd give up on that RRQS, takes too long plus a lot of waste.  Steve
Timberking B20 15000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Online HemlockKing

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1380
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2021, 06:12:52 AM »
I wanted to tell my difficult customer story after reading:  Customer requested discount...after the job was done...

This happened last summer and is the best to my recollection.  I know I had posted for some help on the board while this was going on, but not sure If I told the whole story?

I don't normally saw for others, but I made a deal with a tree service guy to trade him hours of his chipping for hours of my sawing some logs for him.  He brought one of his guys and they did my chipping in 9 man hours including travel.  I help speed them up by bring my banded piles of edgings and small slabs to him so he didn't have to move the chipping more than once.  He'd only sent me a small pic of his 6 logs.  They looked small in the pics and given what I could see in the photo, I figured about 7 hours to saw them.  I told him based on the picture I thought maybe 7 hours, but that was just and estimate based on the picture and it could be double that.  It was also based on cutting 2-2.5" slabs.  Well when he brought them (on a different day) they were much bigger  than they looked.  We had a discussion that the best two oak logs should be quarter sawn into boards.  I told him that was going to costs significantly more time, but it would be much nicer product for him. He gave the go ahead knowing the hourly rate.  I also told him that prep work was also needed to his logs as the logs needed thumbs trimmed and debarking.  I also needed to Timbor the wood to keep the boring beetles away.  I explained PPB to him.  With the go ahead it was clearly stated it was going to be over the original 7 hours, but I couldn't say how much. I started with the quarter sawing, doing RRQS.  They were my 4th and 5th time doing RRQS.  Well those two logs, with trimming prep, debarking, RRQS, , dust removal, Timbor, and stickering and banding  16 hours.  I did it like I do my own wood. The other 3 slabbed logs took  8 hours.  I knew I was in trouble after the RRQS logs time-wise.  It took a lot longer than I thought and I'm sure more than what he would have figured.  So I called him after the RRQS logs and told him how long I've spent but that the lumber was VERY nice, which it was.  I was ready to eat the extra time I'd already spent(16 hours-his 9 man hours) and stop here, or I could continue and slab the remaining logs and charge hourly ($60), which I thought was being very generous.  He balked at the cost so I said well, do you want me to keep Timbor'ing the wood? I recommended it, but he said no and to keep sawing.  Again, the original deal was to swap hours for hours, and I'd have to charge for anything above that, and I've already given away 7 hours.  

So I continued, and I removed all sawdust, stickered and banded all the slabs as I knew if I didn't, he likely wouldn't heed my warning and he 'd leave them and they'd mold and rot.  So I probably had another 11 hours in those.  I told him that but that I'd cut that down to 8 hours. so total would be $480.  Then he grumbled and balked referring to his time and equipment costs, and my original estimate that I thought I would be able to do it as an equal swap...  keep in mind I had prefaced everything with "from what I can see in the picture", which was a poor picture with little perspective.  I had clearly stated how the deal would work if it took more time, and I kept him up to date as I want along.  I had told him how much time I had in the job going along, but maybe he didn't believe me or didn't want to believe me?  In any case he continued to give the go ahead.  So after I had cut 10 total hours off (which was actually more but I didn't count everything), he was still unhappy.  I stood my ground on the phone and "that is was it was".  He finally agreed and we set a day for him come and load.  He had left his trailer but I wasn't putting anything on the trailer until he paid.  Also I wanted him to help dictate how he wanted his trailer loaded.

So the day he comes he again grumbles about the cost and it was clear he didn't want to pay anything.  It was clear he thought his time was highly valuable and either didn't believe how much time had in it, or didn't think my time was highly valuable.  He did ask at one point the cost of my mill, and at another point mentioned the cost of his truck and chipper.  Maybe that was his basis? He had more money in his equipment?  I don't know.  Well by that point I was tired of hearing it.  Between the phone call and his pick up day I thought of a solution to offer him that could benefit us both.  So I said, I'll make you an offer and it's up to you.  You can pay me what we agreed to on the phone,$480, or I can keep the Quarter sawn oak lumber and we'll call it done.  He thought about it and said he would like 4 of the QS boards and it's a deal.  

That is what we did.  The quarter sawn lumber was worth much more than $480 to me, so in my mind it made up for a few of the extra hours I had cut off.  He was happy not to have to pay any cash and he got all the slabs he wanted for countertops he wanted to make(Cherry and oak), plus enough QS boards for some shelves his wife wanted.  I had showed him the figure in the QS, but he still took my deal.  

I do not like dealing with people like that.  
Sounds like the perfect storm of thriftiness and entitlement. It just goes to show you can't do too much "value-adding" or you'll get taken advantage of by someone who has no idea what it takes to make boards out of logs
This is true of all trades, mechanics, welding, carpentry, everythings harder than it looks typically. Id hate to be a mechanic all the shoddy people youd deal with there, especially if you owned the place.
Building the land of my dreams.

Online SawyerTed

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1937
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Germanton, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • Summey Lumber Services, LLC
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2021, 08:22:29 AM »
It's funny how little people value the labor of others.  No-it is down right insulting.  The fly in the ointment in this scenario is underestimating the time it would take to saw the logs.  

After being burned a couple of times on bartered sawing, I prefer to pay for things I need and be paid for sawing I do.  It is cleaner that way. If someone wants to give me logs in exchange for sawing, I will buy the logs outright and he will pay me for my sawing.  If he doesn't like the price I pay for logs, he doesn't have to take that deal.  If he still wants me to saw, then the logs he wants to sell won't change the sawing deal.  

I will barter with a handful of friends and a couple of neighbors.  We just about bend over backwards to make sure everybody is happy.  Right now I owe a friend a half day of sawing lumber in exchange for a 2 ton truck load of firewood.  I owe him not because he thinks I do but because I think I do.  He will likely get a whole day of sawing and he will likely bring me another load of firewood and the cycle will continue until he needs no more lumber or I need no more firewood.  Because we are good friends we don't keep score but because we are friends we play fair.
Woodmizer LT35HD25, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Ram 3500 6.7 Cummins

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6027
  • Age: 56
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Steps to Save Steps
    • Share Post
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2021, 08:23:43 AM »

 To be honest, how can it take 16 hours to saw 2 logs.  I'd give up on that RRQS, takes too long plus a lot of waste.  Steve
Not to derail the topic, but at the last Sycamore project, even while discussing and demonstrating the technique in front of a crowd, we sawed a 300+ bdft log from start to finish in 38 minutes of easy sawing including gun barrelling.  That comes out to about 450 bdft per hour, zero misses, and we met the Doyle scale of the log.

Here's a video I made some time ago to show the process real time.  The RRQS action starts about 3 minutes in.  There is very little wasted motion or wood.  It takes about 6 to 10 minutes per log half, minus clearing the boards off the mill.  It's a technique that hard to describe but easy to show.  However, it is difficult with a manual mill.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline DWyatt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 458
  • Age: 28
  • Location: NW Ohio
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2021, 09:01:50 AM »
I will barter with a handful of friends and a couple of neighbors.  We just about bend over backwards to make sure everybody is happy.  Right now I owe a friend a half day of sawing lumber in exchange for a 2 ton truck load of firewood.  I owe him not because he thinks I do but because I think I do.  He will likely get a whole day of sawing and he will likely bring me another load of firewood and the cycle will continue until he needs no more lumber or I need no more firewood.  Because we are good friends we don't keep score but because we are friends we play fair.


I don't necessarily call that bartering, I call that being a good Friend and/or neighbor. I currently owe one of my friend's (a licensed electrician) a full built in cabinet around his gun safes. Not because we agreed to it when he came down and helped wire up my new house for no cost, but because in my house we take care of those who take care of us. His cabinet will be the first project out of the new shop I am going to build this fall which he will probably help me wire up and insist that I don't owe him anything.

Online SawyerTed

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1937
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Germanton, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • Summey Lumber Services, LLC
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2021, 09:15:39 AM »
I agree that's what friends do, but that's the extent of my bartering - swapping work with friends and neighbors.  Others get paid for what they do, I get paid for what I do.  
Woodmizer LT35HD25, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Ram 3500 6.7 Cummins

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6027
  • Age: 56
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Steps to Save Steps
    • Share Post
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2021, 12:40:31 PM »
I'm with that.  As soon as WalMart and Publix takes barter so will I.  I'll do it with friends, but not for business.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Online moodnacreek

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3248
  • Location: Orange County NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Sawin by the notches
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2021, 01:26:46 PM »
The other day a guy stopped by and asked if I would saw 4 w. oak that he would deliver. I said I did not want to. He dropped a good name. I said I would if the logs where good. He dropped off 4 curved, busted, 12" knoted, tree service aspen. Now he wants to come here with his chain saw and learn how to clean up junk logs and bring his friend. I have more work than I can do. And am trying to close to start new installation.  Sawing for others never works here.  Oh, the aspen logs are big,it's the knots that are 12".

Offline sawguy21

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 12007
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Enderby B.C. Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2021, 02:36:55 PM »
He can't tell the difference between oak and aspen? Tell him either they are cleared out or they will be firewood, you don't need the aggravation.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Tacotodd

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1852
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Bauxite AR
  • Gender: Male
  • To learn and help
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2021, 06:16:48 PM »
This all reminds me of the favor that I did for my neighbor next door. I felled 3 trees for her that she wanted riddance of AS LONG AS I can keep the wood. She said I cant beat a deal like that! & all was good. I bartered with her and we we are both extremely happy. I have an even BETTER neighbor (now a good acquaintance) thats starting to hover on the friend mark for Goldie & I. But I can see how life could have gone south at ANY moment.
Trying harder everyday.

Offline WV Sawmiller

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10926
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Hinton WV
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Green's Sawmill Services
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2021, 09:06:28 PM »
  The key to a proper barter is both customers leaving happy with the deal. You take something you no longer need or enjoy making and trade for something you want and need/want more.

    When I moved to WV I had never bartered but once here I found it was common and expected and I got in the swing of it and enjoy it. Of course working overseas in the mid-east and Africa taught me the real art of the barter.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Cedarman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6348
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Marengo In
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Cedarusa
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2021, 07:46:22 AM »
Women are some of the best barterers out there.  They sneak up on you.  When I was custom sawing many years ago, we would get to the end of the day and start tallying up.  She would come out with a bunch of cookies or brownies wrapped up and say take these home with you. Now she might have $10 bucks or so tied up in making those cookies, but it always helped shrink the tally.  Traded sawing for cookies.  Yup, both sides came out ahead.
Good barterers know best deal can be made trading food and/or beer for sawing.
And both sides go away happy.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Online moodnacreek

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3248
  • Location: Orange County NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Sawin by the notches
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2021, 08:24:25 AM »
A girl with the right personality will do better than any man.

Offline WV Sawmiller

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10926
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Hinton WV
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Green's Sawmill Services
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2021, 08:25:42 AM »
   A simple smile or joke and an honest expression of your admiration for another's craftsmanship goes a long way to setting up a good barter/trade too.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2009 4wd Dodge PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Sthil 440 & 441, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once"

Offline Crossroads

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Plummer Idaho
  • Gender: Male
  • lets make some sawdust
    • Share Post
    • Kevin Bales faith family farm and portable sawmill
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2021, 07:43:32 PM »
Sorry about your bad experience Brad. 
2017 LT40 wide, Kubota l185dt, 2-036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Farmi logging winch, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer

Offline Crossroads

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Plummer Idaho
  • Gender: Male
  • lets make some sawdust
    • Share Post
    • Kevin Bales faith family farm and portable sawmill
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2021, 09:49:42 PM »

 To be honest, how can it take 16 hours to saw 2 logs.  I'd give up on that RRQS, takes too long plus a lot of waste.  Steve
Not to derail the topic, but at the last Sycamore project, even while discussing and demonstrating the technique in front of a crowd, we sawed a 300+ bdft log from start to finish in 38 minutes of easy sawing including gun barrelling.  That comes out to about 450 bdft per hour, zero misses, and we met the Doyle scale of the log.

Here's a video I made some time ago to show the process real time.  The RRQS action starts about 3 minutes in.  There is very little wasted motion or wood.  It takes about 6 to 10 minutes per log half, minus clearing the boards off the mill.  It's a technique that hard to describe but easy to show.  However, it is difficult with a manual mill.


Dang, you sure can push that lt70 a lot fast than I can my Lt40! Im Im impressed 
2017 LT40 wide, Kubota l185dt, 2-036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Farmi logging winch, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4606
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Joliet, IL and Indy
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2021, 01:02:12 AM »
38 minutes?  Does that include trimming, anchor sealing, and manual debarking of the log?  Does it include working by yourself, manually setting up and rolling the log to gun barrel it?  How about manually moving the top section off, and then the center cuts off?  How about manually reverse rolling both halves using a 2x4 to hold the bottom of the section in position?  Do you brush the dust off each board yourself?  Do you sticker stack the boards as you go along after brushing them? Do you reload the center cuts by yourself onto the mill to edge the pith out of them?  Do you mix up and spray each board with Timbor before it's final sticker stacked?  Did you also band the stack with  Kubenic strapping?  Did you include the time to rake up all the bark and shovel the saw dust? Also time to refill the water jug(water not nearby).  Also had to check the drive belt tension before starting to make sure it will cut good.  Also time to deal with the gun barrel slabs, and edgings.  And the logs were at the borderline of what the mill could cut.  And it was very hot out.  Well for me, that all adds up to a lot more than 38 minutes.  If you can do all that in 38 minutes, my hat's off to you and I'm bringing all my logs to you from now on.  It's very easy to neglect many of the steps.  We often take them for granted, but they do have to be done and it definitely adds up.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 39783
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2021, 04:14:25 AM »
He can't tell the difference between oak and aspen? Tell him either they are cleared out or they will be firewood, you don't need the aggravation.
Had a guy that couldn't tell balm-of-gilead (balsam poplar) from red oak. And on top of that, not even in an oak area. More like an area prolific with balm-of-gilead, near a major river. But what was worst was being a forest technician and not knowing the difference. I hate to rub in salt, but my goodness. ::)  There is an island in that river named Balm-of-Gilead Island.  :D You see where I'm coming from?? :-X
No amount of belief makes something a fact. James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Age: 69
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2021, 06:21:27 AM »
38 minutes?  Does that include trimming, anchor sealing, and manual debarking of the log?  Does it include working by yourself, manually setting up and rolling the log to gun barrel it?  How about manually moving the top section off, and then the center cuts off?  How about manually reverse rolling both halves using a 2x4 to hold the bottom of the section in position?  Do you brush the dust off each board yourself?  Do you sticker stack the boards as you go along after brushing them? Do you reload the center cuts by yourself onto the mill to edge the pith out of them?  Do you mix up and spray each board with Timbor before it's final sticker stacked?  Did you also band the stack with  Kubenic strapping?  Did you include the time to rake up all the bark and shovel the saw dust? Also time to refill the water jug(water not nearby).  Also had to check the drive belt tension before starting to make sure it will cut good.  Also time to deal with the gun barrel slabs, and edgings.  And the logs were at the borderline of what the mill could cut.  And it was very hot out.  Well for me, that all adds up to a lot more than 38 minutes.  If you can do all that in 38 minutes, my hat's off to you and I'm bringing all my logs to you from now on.  It's very easy to neglect many of the steps.  We often take them for granted, but they do have to be done and it definitely adds up.
  I would never try RRQS on a manual , if fact  I tried it once on my hydraulic mill. never again.  Too much extra time, too much edging those angled boards , too much waste.  I'll a take a few extra rift sawn boards which I like.  Steve
Timberking B20 15000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6027
  • Age: 56
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Steps to Save Steps
    • Share Post
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2021, 09:01:26 AM »
I was not attacking anyone about their sawing times, nor how long it takes to saw logs, nor their setup.  That is not my intent at all, however, I was simply refuting the comment that RRQS is overly wasteful or takes too much time over other quartersawing techniques.  One of our members, whose product is production quartersawn white oak, has adopted the technique and reported an increase in both speed and ray fleck yield over their previous quarter sawing process.    

Putting the 38 minute RRQS speed into perspective.  We were at Cusomsawyer's yearly Sycamore Project where we routinely give a RRQS demonstration for the last several years.  There were maybe 80 people present at the Project, some sitting around, some wandering here and there, watching us give the demo.  WDH and was there also, and us three are giving the demo.  The boards that are QS'd are used to sell later and help pay for expenses, so wasting wood and money is not an option.  We normally do several logs at these yearly demonstrations, simply so people can understand the routine steps, and have enough lumber to make it worthwhile.  Nathan, (123 Maxbars) was filming the whole process and later made it into a Tube video.  People always comment on how slow and how wasteful quartersawing is, so waste and speed is a metric we track real time so folks can see it with their own eyes and compare it with conventional techniques.  On our second to last log, we had RRQS'd it in a timed 45 minutes, with me and WDH talking and narrating the steps as Jake did the sawing.  We were not in a hurry on that log.  However, a huge a food spread had been put out for lunch, barbecue, hamburgers, hot dogs, cake, etc, and we had one log left to saw.  Jake looked at me and instead of breaking for lunch, we decided to simply mow through the last log, with no narration, just "shut up and get it done."  This would also show people the true speed of the RRQS process, such as is done when simply sawing for production purposes.  38 minutes later, it was done, Jake shut the mill off, and we were all walking to the feast.  The time included the full sawing process, from loading the log, initial gun barreling, measuring and setting the toeboards, splitting the cant down the middle, separating and unloading one log half with a skid steer, RRQSing the first half, loading the second half, and RRQSing it.  It was not done at warp speed, it was done at normal "shut up and saw" speed.  On that log, we inspect every board as it is stacked, and there were zero misses, all had fleck.  It was hot, it was Georgia, its always hot, and there were these gnats that kept flying into everyone's eyes.

As far as my real speed sawing, I saw alone, as in the video.  I never spend time scraping any sawdust off the boards, I don't even own a scraper, my boards come off clean, no real sawdust on them, and I've discussed how to do that several times.  I don't deal with with sweeping bark chips or shoveling sawdust and such, I've invested many thousands of dollars in a substantial dust collection system that's hooked up to the mill, and all the sawdust gets blown into a dumpster hopper.  I use Cotton Picker Spindle Lube mixed with water, so only refill my water tank about every 2 or 3 days of sawing, as I have discussed before.  I never spray any wood with Timbor, or any chemical for that  matter, it makes my product unmarketable, and is unnecessary in my opinion, since I kiln dry all my wood.  I do not end seal logs, I think it wastes product and time.  I end seal the finished, pack sawn boards.  I do not edge green quartersawn wood, or any green wood for that matter, with few exceptions.  It's also an unnecessary step in my operation, simply because we sell S4S kiln dried wood, and why would I edge green wood, only to edge it again after it's been kiln dried and incur edge drop losses twice?  So I spend basically zero time edging as a sawing process, and this is just a few of my "Take Steps to Save Steps" philosophy.  I don't spend any time to do these steps, I have simply facilitated techniques where these are not necessary in my situation, and so don't cost me any time.  All the logs that I prefer to RRQS are by their nature very large, as the bigger the log, the wider the boards.  Gunbarreling certainly takes time, but again, I have discussed techniques to speed it up, and that is also common to any quartersawing technique, so would take time no matter if RRQSing or not.  If you'll notice on my video, I don't even dragback every board or spend time unloading individual boards, the technique is so predictable, I can cut them in batches of several and bring them back in groups.  More time saved.
 
I have never done RRQSing on a manual mill, so I can't comment on the modifications to the technique required, however I have done it for years on my LT40 and LT70. If someone brings me a manual mill, I'd be glad to give it a go, I've been wanting to try it for years.

Certainly, people from this Forum can come visit me anytime, and people do it routinely.  I am not on this Forum to criticize, there is enough of that out in the world.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Online moodnacreek

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3248
  • Location: Orange County NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Sawin by the notches
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2021, 10:35:24 AM »
Y.H., Your posts are very informative and interesting to me even though I do almost nothing like you do. For one thing, these days I don't concentrate on grade lumber or 1/4 sawn like I used to.  Actually 2 extremes; trailer plank and rough circle cut live edge as they say. You would cringe to watch me slice up a nice walnut to wide 'slabs' [I don't like that term] with no regard to the clear lumber that could have been.    Looking at you photos I can see that you have put your heart into your operation and I do try everyday to take steps to save steps.  Keep posting, Doug

Offline Andries

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1623
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Oakbank, Manitoba
  • Gender: Male
  • Making buildings out of big curvy logs
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2021, 11:01:45 AM »
The thread has taken a turn from sawing for others, to a discussion of process steps to produce lumber.
It seems that Brad_bb is posting about the many, many things it takes to run a sawmill and produce quality lumber, while Yellowhammer is offering up a way to get the maximum amount of quartersawn lumber from a big oak log.
Apples and oranges, gentlemen. The juice ain't worth the squeeze if you're not talking about the same thing.
Like Brad, my hat goes off to you Yellowhammer, for showing us a novel way of milling that we can use if it adds to our operation.
Another tool in the toolbox.
LT30G24, LT40G25
Ford 545 Series loaders
Stihl chainsaws

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4606
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Joliet, IL and Indy
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2021, 01:50:30 PM »
Oh yes, that is my point.  That was my point with my last post.  You can't compare the 38 minutes to my time as we are comparing apples to oranges.  Many steps in one, that are not in the other.  Much different equipment.  Very different hourly cost as well I'm sure.  Most sawing for production would probably just saw, flat stack and leave the rest for the customer.   Would have been nice if he'd brought me logs instead of trees as well.  As a wise man once said, logs roll, trees do not.

I don't disagree that RRQS would be far better and faster on a Hydraulic mill than my manual mill.  I would love to add hydraulics to my mill, and a custom RRQS clamp.  I value YH and all those contributing on this post.  Please don't assume I'm being snarky or negative, as that is rarely if ever my intention.  

The point of this post was the frustrations of dealing with a customer that doesn't value your time, but only their own.  What I did for him, is what I would have done with my own wood.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
difficult ID

Started by Andy Henriksen on Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.

6 Replies
1957 Views
Last post April 19, 2005, 08:20:17 PM
by hawby
xx
Not too difficult

Started by Gary_C on Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.

10 Replies
2632 Views
Last post November 13, 2009, 01:39:07 AM
by Gary_C
xx
Difficult access, Big Log

Started by Firebass on Sawmills and Milling

18 Replies
4650 Views
Last post February 25, 2007, 05:13:27 PM
by D._Frederick
xx
Sharpening a chain. Why so difficult

Started by Kwill on Chainsaws

103 Replies
7966 Views
Last post March 27, 2019, 09:40:53 PM
by gaproperty
 


Powered by EzPortal