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Author Topic: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people  (Read 2043 times)

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2021, 09:49:42 PM »

 To be honest, how can it take 16 hours to saw 2 logs.  I'd give up on that RRQS, takes too long plus a lot of waste.  Steve
Not to derail the topic, but at the last Sycamore project, even while discussing and demonstrating the technique in front of a crowd, we sawed a 300+ bdft log from start to finish in 38 minutes of easy sawing including gun barrelling.  That comes out to about 450 bdft per hour, zero misses, and we met the Doyle scale of the log.

Here's a video I made some time ago to show the process real time.  The RRQS action starts about 3 minutes in.  There is very little wasted motion or wood.  It takes about 6 to 10 minutes per log half, minus clearing the boards off the mill.  It's a technique that hard to describe but easy to show.  However, it is difficult with a manual mill.


Dang, you sure can push that lt70 a lot fast than I can my Lt40! Im Im impressed 
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2021, 01:02:12 AM »
38 minutes?  Does that include trimming, anchor sealing, and manual debarking of the log?  Does it include working by yourself, manually setting up and rolling the log to gun barrel it?  How about manually moving the top section off, and then the center cuts off?  How about manually reverse rolling both halves using a 2x4 to hold the bottom of the section in position?  Do you brush the dust off each board yourself?  Do you sticker stack the boards as you go along after brushing them? Do you reload the center cuts by yourself onto the mill to edge the pith out of them?  Do you mix up and spray each board with Timbor before it's final sticker stacked?  Did you also band the stack with  Kubenic strapping?  Did you include the time to rake up all the bark and shovel the saw dust? Also time to refill the water jug(water not nearby).  Also had to check the drive belt tension before starting to make sure it will cut good.  Also time to deal with the gun barrel slabs, and edgings.  And the logs were at the borderline of what the mill could cut.  And it was very hot out.  Well for me, that all adds up to a lot more than 38 minutes.  If you can do all that in 38 minutes, my hat's off to you and I'm bringing all my logs to you from now on.  It's very easy to neglect many of the steps.  We often take them for granted, but they do have to be done and it definitely adds up.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2021, 04:14:25 AM »
He can't tell the difference between oak and aspen? Tell him either they are cleared out or they will be firewood, you don't need the aggravation.
Had a guy that couldn't tell balm-of-gilead (balsam poplar) from red oak. And on top of that, not even in an oak area. More like an area prolific with balm-of-gilead, near a major river. But what was worst was being a forest technician and not knowing the difference. I hate to rub in salt, but my goodness. ::)  There is an island in that river named Balm-of-Gilead Island.  :D You see where I'm coming from?? :-X
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Offline ladylake

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2021, 06:21:27 AM »
38 minutes?  Does that include trimming, anchor sealing, and manual debarking of the log?  Does it include working by yourself, manually setting up and rolling the log to gun barrel it?  How about manually moving the top section off, and then the center cuts off?  How about manually reverse rolling both halves using a 2x4 to hold the bottom of the section in position?  Do you brush the dust off each board yourself?  Do you sticker stack the boards as you go along after brushing them? Do you reload the center cuts by yourself onto the mill to edge the pith out of them?  Do you mix up and spray each board with Timbor before it's final sticker stacked?  Did you also band the stack with  Kubenic strapping?  Did you include the time to rake up all the bark and shovel the saw dust? Also time to refill the water jug(water not nearby).  Also had to check the drive belt tension before starting to make sure it will cut good.  Also time to deal with the gun barrel slabs, and edgings.  And the logs were at the borderline of what the mill could cut.  And it was very hot out.  Well for me, that all adds up to a lot more than 38 minutes.  If you can do all that in 38 minutes, my hat's off to you and I'm bringing all my logs to you from now on.  It's very easy to neglect many of the steps.  We often take them for granted, but they do have to be done and it definitely adds up.
  I would never try RRQS on a manual , if fact  I tried it once on my hydraulic mill. never again.  Too much extra time, too much edging those angled boards , too much waste.  I'll a take a few extra rift sawn boards which I like.  Steve
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2021, 09:01:26 AM »
I was not attacking anyone about their sawing times, nor how long it takes to saw logs, nor their setup.  That is not my intent at all, however, I was simply refuting the comment that RRQS is overly wasteful or takes too much time over other quartersawing techniques.  One of our members, whose product is production quartersawn white oak, has adopted the technique and reported an increase in both speed and ray fleck yield over their previous quarter sawing process.    

Putting the 38 minute RRQS speed into perspective.  We were at Cusomsawyer's yearly Sycamore Project where we routinely give a RRQS demonstration for the last several years.  There were maybe 80 people present at the Project, some sitting around, some wandering here and there, watching us give the demo.  WDH and was there also, and us three are giving the demo.  The boards that are QS'd are used to sell later and help pay for expenses, so wasting wood and money is not an option.  We normally do several logs at these yearly demonstrations, simply so people can understand the routine steps, and have enough lumber to make it worthwhile.  Nathan, (123 Maxbars) was filming the whole process and later made it into a Tube video.  People always comment on how slow and how wasteful quartersawing is, so waste and speed is a metric we track real time so folks can see it with their own eyes and compare it with conventional techniques.  On our second to last log, we had RRQS'd it in a timed 45 minutes, with me and WDH talking and narrating the steps as Jake did the sawing.  We were not in a hurry on that log.  However, a huge a food spread had been put out for lunch, barbecue, hamburgers, hot dogs, cake, etc, and we had one log left to saw.  Jake looked at me and instead of breaking for lunch, we decided to simply mow through the last log, with no narration, just "shut up and get it done."  This would also show people the true speed of the RRQS process, such as is done when simply sawing for production purposes.  38 minutes later, it was done, Jake shut the mill off, and we were all walking to the feast.  The time included the full sawing process, from loading the log, initial gun barreling, measuring and setting the toeboards, splitting the cant down the middle, separating and unloading one log half with a skid steer, RRQSing the first half, loading the second half, and RRQSing it.  It was not done at warp speed, it was done at normal "shut up and saw" speed.  On that log, we inspect every board as it is stacked, and there were zero misses, all had fleck.  It was hot, it was Georgia, its always hot, and there were these gnats that kept flying into everyone's eyes.

As far as my real speed sawing, I saw alone, as in the video.  I never spend time scraping any sawdust off the boards, I don't even own a scraper, my boards come off clean, no real sawdust on them, and I've discussed how to do that several times.  I don't deal with with sweeping bark chips or shoveling sawdust and such, I've invested many thousands of dollars in a substantial dust collection system that's hooked up to the mill, and all the sawdust gets blown into a dumpster hopper.  I use Cotton Picker Spindle Lube mixed with water, so only refill my water tank about every 2 or 3 days of sawing, as I have discussed before.  I never spray any wood with Timbor, or any chemical for that  matter, it makes my product unmarketable, and is unnecessary in my opinion, since I kiln dry all my wood.  I do not end seal logs, I think it wastes product and time.  I end seal the finished, pack sawn boards.  I do not edge green quartersawn wood, or any green wood for that matter, with few exceptions.  It's also an unnecessary step in my operation, simply because we sell S4S kiln dried wood, and why would I edge green wood, only to edge it again after it's been kiln dried and incur edge drop losses twice?  So I spend basically zero time edging as a sawing process, and this is just a few of my "Take Steps to Save Steps" philosophy.  I don't spend any time to do these steps, I have simply facilitated techniques where these are not necessary in my situation, and so don't cost me any time.  All the logs that I prefer to RRQS are by their nature very large, as the bigger the log, the wider the boards.  Gunbarreling certainly takes time, but again, I have discussed techniques to speed it up, and that is also common to any quartersawing technique, so would take time no matter if RRQSing or not.  If you'll notice on my video, I don't even dragback every board or spend time unloading individual boards, the technique is so predictable, I can cut them in batches of several and bring them back in groups.  More time saved.
 
I have never done RRQSing on a manual mill, so I can't comment on the modifications to the technique required, however I have done it for years on my LT40 and LT70. If someone brings me a manual mill, I'd be glad to give it a go, I've been wanting to try it for years.

Certainly, people from this Forum can come visit me anytime, and people do it routinely.  I am not on this Forum to criticize, there is enough of that out in the world.  
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Online moodnacreek

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2021, 10:35:24 AM »
Y.H., Your posts are very informative and interesting to me even though I do almost nothing like you do. For one thing, these days I don't concentrate on grade lumber or 1/4 sawn like I used to.  Actually 2 extremes; trailer plank and rough circle cut live edge as they say. You would cringe to watch me slice up a nice walnut to wide 'slabs' [I don't like that term] with no regard to the clear lumber that could have been.    Looking at you photos I can see that you have put your heart into your operation and I do try everyday to take steps to save steps.  Keep posting, Doug

Offline Andries

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2021, 11:01:45 AM »
The thread has taken a turn from sawing for others, to a discussion of process steps to produce lumber.
It seems that Brad_bb is posting about the many, many things it takes to run a sawmill and produce quality lumber, while Yellowhammer is offering up a way to get the maximum amount of quartersawn lumber from a big oak log.
Apples and oranges, gentlemen. The juice ain't worth the squeeze if you're not talking about the same thing.
Like Brad, my hat goes off to you Yellowhammer, for showing us a novel way of milling that we can use if it adds to our operation.
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: My difficult customer ...one reason I don't saw for other people
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2021, 01:50:30 PM »
Oh yes, that is my point.  That was my point with my last post.  You can't compare the 38 minutes to my time as we are comparing apples to oranges.  Many steps in one, that are not in the other.  Much different equipment.  Very different hourly cost as well I'm sure.  Most sawing for production would probably just saw, flat stack and leave the rest for the customer.   Would have been nice if he'd brought me logs instead of trees as well.  As a wise man once said, logs roll, trees do not.

I don't disagree that RRQS would be far better and faster on a Hydraulic mill than my manual mill.  I would love to add hydraulics to my mill, and a custom RRQS clamp.  I value YH and all those contributing on this post.  Please don't assume I'm being snarky or negative, as that is rarely if ever my intention.  

The point of this post was the frustrations of dealing with a customer that doesn't value your time, but only their own.  What I did for him, is what I would have done with my own wood.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!


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