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Sawmill Layout

Started by woodmann, May 15, 2010, 10:21:30 AM

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woodmann

Hello to All , I just joined and I'm looking for some insight about how to layout concrete piers to set up my mill. It's an old #1 Meadows but it's been convereted to hydraulic and it has a pretty stout log turner so I want to make sure the foundation in done right . Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Magicman

woodmann, Welcome to The Forestry Forum.  I can't help you with your layout.....just saying hello...... :)
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Mooseherder

Have you considered laying out a slab instead?
That way you wouldn't have to worry if your piers were in the right place.

Ron Wenrich

You're going to need more piers in the back of the mill than in the front.  That's where all the work is going to be done and a lot more pounding is taking place. 

Do you have wooden ways under your track or is it on metal?  For one mill setup, I used piers at the end of each section, and added an extra pier in between on the back section. 

The most important area is where your husk is attached, and how you attach that to the track.  That should be all one unit and tied together.  Make sure everything gets below frostline.  You don't want any frost heave to cause problems.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Woodmann,I think meadows is still building mills mayby they will send you the old plans.Its hard to have too heavy a foundation.Four foot spacing is usally used around the husk and A good idea around the log turner, longer spacing is OK out on the offbearers end.Rather than seperate piers front and back I think its much better to pour a concrete partition, think of looking at the end of a jersey barrier.Treated wood bolted to the top of the partitions makes it easier to adjust.Leave enough space under the mill for sawdust removal equip.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

woodmann

Hey, thanks for the input.  My mill is all steel and our frost line is usually only 18 inches but I was thinking of going down 36 to be safe.  I want to save money but I want to do it right.  I'm thinking of pouring footings 12 inches wide and putting the piers on them. I had thought about spacing the piers 8 feet apart but maybe that's too far.  I hope to start digging this week.

Ron Wenrich

8' isn't too far on the offbearer side.  There won't be a whole lot of activity up there.  You just need to beef up the log side.

How far above the ground are you going to go?  How big of piers are you pouring?  I've seen those piers that they pour into some sort of tubing.  They'll hold up pretty well. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

customsawyer

I don't know much about circle mills other than the blades are round and they make great lumber if run right. With my band mill I have it sitting on wooden blocks so there is so give due to the size logs that I am working with if my mill was mounted solid to concrete I feel it would break my mill. I do have to realign my mill every now and then but it is far less time than I would spend welding. I also saw an old timer that had his mill set up on coil springs like what comes on the front axle of a older Ford truck and it could move all it wanted to with out no damage to the mill.
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woodmann

I'm thinking about pouring the piers 6" x 48" and probably 48" above the ground.  I'd like to go with round pillars in sonic tube and use less concrete but I'm afraid they would be too weak that far above ground.

bandmiller2

Woodman,its also practical to use treated sections of utility poles.You dig a good hole,pour concrete footing when hard set the pole piece on it with a couple of shovels of crushed stone then pour concrete around the pole and backfill.You level the pole tops and notch for a cross beam bolted to the posts,cross brace part above ground.Should be good for 30 or more years almost forever if under a roof, as any good mill should be anyways. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

D Hagens

Quote from: woodmann on May 16, 2010, 09:12:37 PM
I'm thinking about pouring the piers 6" x 48" and probably 48" above the ground.  I'd like to go with round pillars in sonic tube and use less concrete but I'm afraid they would be too weak that far above ground.

  I'd be thinking more along the lines of the vibration from the mill pulverizing your piers. Concrete doesn't hold up that well under constant stress and vibrations.

schmism

Quote from: D Hagens

  I'd be thinking more along the lines of the vibration from the mill pulverizing your piers. Concrete doesn't hold up that well under constant stress and vibrations.

odd,  seems concrete is the preferred material to make bridge decks out of which are under constant stress and vibration....
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D Hagens

 The MPA used for the construction of bridges coming out of the back of a cement truck is just a tad bit different than a few bags of ready mix Portland cement. :)
Throw in the fact that there's also re-bar, steel mesh, expansion joints ext. that add to the strength of a bridge deck. Also they are designed to accept expansion and contractions due to the hot and the cold.
I was just saying that bolting a sawmill directly to cement piers with a very low MPA isn't the best way to go.
Ever took a sledge to bagged cement compared to poured cement with the appropriate MPA?  :)

Jeff

Any commercial mill I ever ran, was set up on concrete piers, and I was in on the set up of two.  If my memory serves me, we uses what they called "6 bag mix" for the concrete.  We used 1" by 12" by 7 foot long cottonwood lumber and steel banding to create our forms. Holes were dug to 48" to be below our frost line leaving 3 foot above.  The pier form heights were marked by shooting with a transit and cut off so when poured, they would all be identical height. The cement was delivered by tuck and was re-enforced with fiberglass fiber as well as 4 lengths of sucker rod pushed into the form holes of each pier before the pour. These were pairs of piers every 8 feet.  Grade 5 threaded rod was embedded in the tops of the piers to serve as anchorments. Our CMC mill was built on an I-beam frame so these anchors were positioned so they fell just outside of the beams, and you could drop a pieces of plate with a hole in it over the anchor, that would serve as a clamp on the beam when your tightened nuts down on the rod.   Any pier that was not exactly the right height after the cement cured was shimmed with galvanized shim stock while setting the mill to make sure the track was dead level.

The foundation under the husk was beefier. It was a solid block that I don't recall the dimensions on. probably around 4 foot wide and 8 foot long. It served as the 150 horse head rig motor base, and also the hydraulic drives and motors were mounted on this block. Anchorments for the pumps motors and also motor tensionors we fabricated were installed in the husk block prior to the setting of the concrete. 

There were no piers underneath the off bearing roller system of the mill, only steel legs bolted to the cement floor. The floor was poured after the installation of the piers. 


Another thing I would be sure to give some serious consideration to is the area beneath the saw where you sawdust will gather. No what sort of removal system you will have and build accordingly.   We used Cornell  steel paddle barn cleaner systems, so we had a big concrete trench beneath the head rig that the steel pans from the barn cleaner would fit into.

Make sure you give consideration to clean up around your mill. Keep in mind that debris will fall into and fill every area the length of the track, and especially in the areas leading up to the carriage on load end of the mill and up to the husk. You need to be able to police those areas easy enough that it doesn't eat up all your sawing time.  The saw only makes lumber/money when the blade is cutting wood.

I'm sure some of this may be overkill for your given application, but you might be able to use some of the above to formulate your own ideas.  If they would have been available back then, we would have used sonotubes for the forms.

This was 1984. That mill is still running everyday. At least up to when I left in 2006, there was never an issue with the foundation or the concrete and I'm pretty confident they have had none since I left either.
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bandmiller2

Customsawyer,don't think big twanger springs would work under a circle mill they have to be rock solid, ways and carriage perfectly level no sag,headsaw perfectly plumb.Bandmills are quite forgiving as to foundation,their shorter and only have the weight of the sawhead moving.Any movement in a circular saw foundation will cause the saw to chatter in the guides and likely heat the saw,even the old mills have a carriage close to a ton and add a one ton log alot of rolling weight that has to be started and stoped.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

customsawyer

Told ya I didn't know nothing about them, and that is proof. ;D
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

bandmiller2

Customsawyer,I'am all for mounting bandmills on wood,for years mine just set on wood blocks summer and winter.what surprised me was the mill stayed level freeze and thaw only an ocasional tweek of the leveling screws.Wood is overlooked today but its tough and as you say will absorb shock.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

When I was running a Jackson portable, their outriggers were only a screw jack.  We were running stationary on a concrete pad.  We put the jacks on a piece of wood blocking and leveled the mill up.  The setup worked out pretty good, and I don't recall having to relevel the mill very often.

Our current operation is steel I beam uprights that are welded to steel I beams that are in the concrete pad.  Its a lot heavier mill, and we may be getting some settlement and sagging.  We had to beef up the metal on the log end due to all the beating its taken over the years.

I imagine some sort of pier system on a concrete pad is also a feasible system.  The piers below frostline will work as well.  I've used that system but used concrete block for the piers. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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