Advice sought - dedicated slabber chain speed

[shelbycharger400]

hey logboy...  60 inch wide planer?    i have seen pictures of a home built surface mill using a 6 inch shell/ face mill .    Yes i want to build one...   

[logboy]

I have the planer attachment for my Lucas Mill.  And yes, I've planed slabs 60" wide with it.  Its a pretty sweet attachment.  As for the WM 1000, here you go.  And that 50k is just the head, you have to make the track system yourself.  I think the rep said the price was a bit higher than 50k though, but I could be mistaken.

[scsmith42]

Lots of great feedback from all; please keep it coming!

[shelbycharger400]

 

  

  

 

I have no idea where i found these before, i believe it was on another forum a while ago.

[logboy]

I wish I had the know-how and patience to put something like that together.  That looks a bit like the sanding attachment for the Lucas.  I dont have it, but I do have the planing attachment.  Here is a quilted maple slab I did last fall.

[logboy]

I found a thread here on the ripping chain that I use, the Oregon 27RX.  Even back then the Aussies and Kiwis were all over it.   8) 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,10582.0.html

[logboy]

Oh, I also found these photos of the Mega Lucas Slabber on Bailey's Facebook page. 

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.119855448071316.19038.119465764776951&type=3

[Ianab]

I've seen that big Lucas running, it's a beast.



Not fast, but they were cutting lumps of wood like this, and selling them for ~$1,000 a piece.



Ian

[shelbycharger400]

hey logboy...   what kind of ripping chain are you running,  and what is the rakers set at.
I "reground" a standard skip tooth chain, got carried away yesterday,   it was grabby as u know what tryin to cut an ash log last night.  checked it today, i ground the rakers to 130 thousanths below the cutters..   yep i think that chain is junk now.

it had 7 or 8 teeth in the cut.  everytime id hit the log,  bar is at a 25-30 deg angle,  it would start to cut, belt would slip, then motor killed.   what cut i did have inside the log, looked good for finish

[logboy]

 7 or 8 teeth in the cut with no rakers?  If you can get the belt to stop slipping you can really make some sawdust fly!  I use the Oregon 27RX super skip (5 teeth missing between each pair). Rakers are set at a minimum of .050. They come factory at like .025 or .035.  I have 3 brand new chains in the barn fresh from Baileys that need the rakers taken down before I can use them otherwise I'll wear my arms out pushing.  If you want to learn a lot about ripping chains, I'd mosey on over here and read these threads for starters, then search for some more.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f132/cost-404-skip-tooth-chain-27rx-99361/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f132/changing-cutter-angle-97498/

Lots of Lucas slabber guys over there, not a lot of bandsaws.   

[shelbycharger400]

with this skip tooth reg chain.  19 pairs of cutters..
if i do a pair then grind the next 6 into "rakers",  sets it up, but last set i will only have 4 "rakers" before the pair, the only close combination i can see.          if i remember right, the 114 link chain,  reg set has 26 pairs and one single.      worse case senario,  with the modified skip tooth chain is , at max diameter,  only 4 teeth will be in a 24-28 inch dia log.   
7 to 8 teeth into a 10 inch dia ash log is wayyyy too much.

[logboy]

The super skip chains have an odd number of cutters missing between teeth.  Apparently this prevents snaking of the chain. So the cutter sequence is: right-left-skip skip skip skip skip left right skip skip skip skip skip right left skip skip skip skip skip left right etc.  I believe on a 190 link chain I only have like 13 pairs of teeth. There may be chains with 3 set of cutters removed instead of 5 that are called a semi-skip.  I think someone has photos and/or mentioned them on those other message board links I posted.  Lots of people there have experimented with it.

[shelbycharger400]

i wish i could cut out in sets of 3 or 5,  either case would end up where 4 teeth are next to each other..

[shelbycharger400]

speed= run it up!  im running around 6000 rpm.  I notice a difference in just a few  hundred rpm from the engine. chain should sound like its ready to "take off"

today, ground the chain like i stated ,  it is still kinda grabby, not too bad if the wheels were good.   my biggest issue i have is the wheels im using were pulleys that were welded on the inside and i tried to grind them true, they have bearings in them so i cant chuck them in a lathe... they have to go!   OIler im using...worthless.  needs to be 1/4 inch tube.  I ran it today, manually oiling the chain by the jackshaft.
NOte:  dont grind the chain to 0 deg, then cut out the unwanted teeth.  you dont want the new "rakers" to be mini cutters.  Also to whom reads this,  dont waste your time putting the bar at an angle, read on.  just mill a slot in the bar near the tip .    i had the bar before at straight across, then put it at an angle.. no difference with reg saw chain.
My chain changed its tune when it hit the tubing that was clamping the end of the bar, and i permantly damaged a cutter too( looks like a raker now). I was pushing a bit much after it started to get dull.

    made another cut after adjusting the chain and sharpening, cuts fine, slightly better now that the rakers are not sharp as well.
Im moving it back to staight across.    also,  if you look at the picture, the "cups"  should be up, not down. so the log rests against them and dosnt ride up from the vibration or stress in the log. . and introduce an angle.
well,  im done with this test on an ash log... a junky one with branch wood.
a small mantle that needs a time saver or big planer to "straighten it out"
5 3/4 x 8 1/4 x 57 ".

[scsmith42]

Many thanks to all for the great info - especially regarding the chain tips.

Tomorrow I'm planning to start fabricating the slabber.  The bar is 84" long, and will use a 40 HP electric motor to drive it.  I'm planning to support it 18" below the carriage, so that I can flatten the face on a 5' diameter log, and then us the slabber to cut it into thirds (for quartersawing).  We'll start with a 14 tooth harvester sprocket to drive the chain.

One question - the ultra-trick, double throwdown slabber chain is godawful expensive (639 bucks for a 100' spool - ouch!).  Is there any reason why I could not buy a 100' spool of 16H harvester chain (at $399.00 per spool), and remove some of the cutters to make my own skip chain?

OR - should I start with a chain other than the harvester chain?  Seems to me that the harvester chain is designed to withstand the chain speeds that I'll be using, which is why it makes sense to me to start with it.

Also, does anybody have any suggestions as to what to use to make the chain oiler system?  I understand that it would be best to use dual oilers - I presume one on each end of the chain.

Thx.

Scott

[Dan_Shade]

I'd start with the harvester chain.

you can drill the bar, and make a gravity feed oiler.  I have a setup somewhere for one of my alaskan bars, that used a bolt with two holes drilled in it, one hole through the center of the bolt, and another perpindicular to the center line that intersected the first hole.  Then a hole could be bored in the bar to allow access to the drive link groove.  this lets oil feed the bar groove.

[shelbycharger400]

do what dan says for the oiler,   i used a bulkhead fitting,  kinda was a bear to find ,  but fastenal has stainless steel ones, but you want the nickel plated brass! its a pushlock fitting.   use 1/4 inch!
then drill a cross hole in it to line up in the slot in the bar. if you are a small amount too close to the chain, with the brass fitting , the chain will slightly grove it out.    also fittings i used on mine,  i had some from another place that were for 1/8 in tube,  dosnt flow and airlocks easy. i will be changing them out.      also,  all bars are hardened!  buddy broke a endmill just milling my bar in a bridgeport .  for the slot, my buddy went and drilled a series of small pilot holes (1/8) close enough that when a 1/2 inch bit was drilled , only minor cleanup was needed with a carbide bit

[scsmith42]

Thanks guys!

[terrifictimbersllc]

In his book "Chainsaw Lumbermaking", Will Malloff says that the secret of drilling a bar is to put an older bar underneath the one being drilled.  I've tried this and it makes drilling a hole in a bar with the drill press easy.

[Dan_Shade]

Ive drilled a few bars, the old bar seems to help for some reason.  Also turning the chuck by hand can help.  I've done it both ways.

[scsmith42]

I need a sanity check please.....

My original plan was to power the slabber by a 40 hp electric motor (which I happen to have).  My logic being with the extensive amount of torque available from the electric motor (about equal to a 50hp gas motor), I could design and build a slabber that would cut through the log much more quickly than standard slabbers (ie - less labor time or more profit $ - both good things....)

As I start piecing things together though, I'm starting to rethink my plan, and here is why.

First, the cost.  Even though I already have the motor, because it has a 2-3/8" output shaft my options for pulleys is limited.  I'm looking at around $500.00 or more for a pair of pulleys that use a "C" type belt, along with the required quick detach busings. 

Also, for safety reasons I need to figure out a clutch and brake system that will allow me to quickly disconnect the slabber and stop it.

I'm looking at some high dollar magnetic contactors to shut the motor on and off with (it's 50A on 480V).

It's a few minute walk to turn the generator on and off (it's inside a building near the sawmill), which adds up in terms of fuel costs.  It cost me about .30 per minute to run the generator, and if I build a mongo slabber that will go through a log in 1 minute, I'll have about 4 minutes spent in walking back and forth twice to turn the generator on and off after each pass (so that I can swap out the dull chain for a sharp one.  Granted I can consider adding a remote start/stop switch to the generator, but that then turns into another project....

Cost to run the electric to the slabber.  I'll need 20' - 30' of SO type cable, at least #6, which ain't cheap.  Then I'll have to run an electric service from the generator to near the sawmill - probably around 100' of buried conduit and #4 wire.

Lack of portability - ie I won't be able to take the slabber mobile if I ever wanted to.

Reduction in resale value for the slabber, if and when I decide to sell it.

Weight - the 40 hp electric motor that I have weighs around 600 lbs. - a lot of weight to push on the slabber and to be carried by those little plastic wheels at the bottom.

I can pick up a 30hp vertical shaft gas engine for around $1,100.00 (which weighs around 100 lbs), and add an electric clutch to it for a couple of hundred bucks.  It's looking like I'll have at least this same amount tied up in everything that I will need to buy / install in order to use the electric motor, and I'm starting to think that I'd be better off with a gas engine, even though I will lose something in turns of torque.

I don't want to have to take 15 minutes to mill a slab, but if it takes 4 minutes with a 30hp gas motor to slab versus 2 minutes with the electric, I'm ok with that. 

What do y'all think?

[hackberry jake]

I think I was thinking about building one too, but not high production. It would take me way more time to find, cut, and haul logs that size. Anything to do with large logs and large flitches is going to take time(for me anyways). Keep up the fight I say, I wanna see a video of the monster in action!

[shelbycharger400]

motor contactor ... $$$   around 4- 500! 
as far as a remote...  look at home depot or menards for a remote light switch,  its $15 ,  buddy uses one  ,  i think he has it wired to control one leg of 220 v.  he uses his for his 3 phase rotary generator.

have you priced out that 84 inch bar yet?  you might be sticker shocked!
cheapest 48 inch bar i was looking at was 4-500 for a harvester bar .
i plan on building a big one someday, this is the reason why i went with a 36 inch.
dealer stocks 36 inch bars (around 80 for a stihl) and standard chains (40) . 

clutches?     electric motor.. dont need one.   buy a frequency drive. ($$$)
frequency drives,   you will soft start the motor, basically you will save a small amout over time on starting and stopping as far as electricity.

HP?   im running a 12.5 powering a 36 inch bar with 5 pairs of cutters.    i cut a 10 inch dia ash (wet)  my rakers were cut down to 130 thou,  it was grabby, but it did it.  yes i could have used more hp,  but it was done .

Time?   my wheels are not what they need to be,  so i couldnt get a consistant "push" without bind up ,  combination of my wheels and excessive chip cutting , still was just a few minutes for a slab.

all in all, it was nice to see the chips comming out.   i do have a 17 hp  "GOOD " running motor.  i havent ran it, but buddy said it was good.   this 12.5 hp motor is kinda crummy, i have to play with the choke, and wedge it open just right with a small spring clamp, ect. 10 hp output, maybe .. lol 

[sgschwend]

Yes, it sound better to use a gas engine.  I am not sure the chain could have taken that stress anyway.  You may want to look that up.

I have done a bit of slabbing with my 25hp Kohler, it is slow (1-3feet/minute)  but it still takes more time to unload the slab than to cut it. 

I also charge customers an hourly rate so the slower speed is actually a plus for me.  I have had customer drive away with $3000 worth of slabs and I earned only $300 bucks.

Sprockets and arbors will cost some bucks too.

[scsmith42]

motor contactor ... $$$   around 4- 500! 
as far as a remote...  look at home depot or menards for a remote light switch,  its $15 ,  buddy uses one  ,  i think he has it wired to control one leg of 220 v.  he uses his for his 3 phase rotary generator.

have you priced out that 84 inch bar yet? 

clutches?     electric motor.. dont need one.   buy a frequency drive. ($$$)
frequency drives,   you will soft start the motor, basically you will save a small amout over time on starting and stopping as far as electricity.

HP?   im running a 12.5 powering a 36 inch bar with 5 pairs of cutters.    i cut a 10 inch dia ash (wet)  my rakers were cut down to 130 thou,  it was grabby, but it did it.  yes i could have used more hp,  but it was done .

Time?   my wheels are not what they need to be,  so i couldnt get a consistant "push" without bind up ,  combination of my wheels and excessive chip cutting , still was just a few minutes for a slab.

all in all, it was nice to see the chips comming out.   i do have a 17 hp  "GOOD " running motor.  i havent ran it, but buddy said it was good.   this 12.5 hp motor is kinda crummy, i have to play with the choke, and wedge it open just right with a small spring clamp, ect. 10 hp output, maybe .. lol

Fortunately I already have the bar.  A VFD for a 40HP motor starts at $1,700.00, almost twice what I can get a 30HP gas engine for....

The numbers are really lining up for the gas engine.