Mill Purchase problems (long and tending to rant)

[MRowsh]

In all honesty, furu's question is a simple one.

Believe it or not, I asked many questions before I finalized my decision, and only one place was very responsive and answered my questions with even more explanations that I needed.

Each individual is coming from different background and experiences, with different standards. To me, honesty, integrity, and truthfulness matters a lot. And if a sales person try to BS his way through my questions; that will be NO GO in Army lingo!!

So, asking furu;  what he has in mind and why he is asking these questions, does not make any difference. He just needed an accurate answer that unfortunately he did not get.  I asked the same question, and the response was 650 lbs for that specific model.  It is that simple to a simple person like me and myself together!!

[Jeff]

I went back and read the first post in its entirety, and I again came away with the conclusion that you wanted to have extensions as part of your mobile mill, and from lack of information, I would assume you wanted to haul the extensions on the mill because of the statement you said one salesman said about it you do that, you won't be able to have a mobile mill.  That directly translates in my mind, that how can you determine the tongue weight if you are hauling accessories on it not designed into the original portable mill, like extensions.  Now that we get more information, is seems that you don't want to do that.  Either way, I also read in the original post words like Rant , bashing contest, frustrating and lawyer that just about sums up this topic and it hasn't a thing to do with the posts made by anyone other than the attitude coming in of the original poster. In fact, you never asked for help if you read back through the topic. you just wanted confirmation that you had the right to be frustrated. Well, I say, when you look at the world in a certain way, then yes you certainly do, in fact, you can expect to be.

"Hey guys, trying to buy a mill, and can't get specifics on tongue weight, can anybody weigh in on what to expect on a mill with these given specifications?"

Now that is an easy question, and I am guessing what was intended?  The other alternative is the rant and bashing part is what was desired since it was eventually turned upon the other posters. To be clear, I'm not trying to pick on someone here, I'm just doing my duty to keep things civil around here and the attitude in here needed to be addressed for the sake of everybody. On the rare occasion it has to be done.

[isawlogs]

 Like I said earlier, get a scale and go see the mill and put the tongue on the scale, you will have the answer you are so seeking without any agravation what so ever.  :P

[SAWMILL BUDDY]

Just buy a bigger truck ;D

[Ga Mtn Man]

... and when you need to use a WDH or when you do not need to as well.

Everyone needs a little WDH now and then. ;D

[NWP]

I was thought of something today. The OP was very concerned about tongue weight. Do they weigh the tongue weight of every trailer they pull?  I only wondered because they seemed very concerned about it and the tongue/trailer weight ratio as well as the total weight of the trailer vs what the tow vehicle was rated at.

[delvis]

When we bought our first mill I had done research for a couple years and because I really didn't know enough about portable mills, I made the choice to go with a Timber Harvester mill.  The guy on the phone selling the mill to me seemed pretty great and they sent a pre-purchase agreement to me before delivery.  That year was the 'on' year for the local forestry products EXPO and I was looking forward to Timber Harvester being there showing my machine off before I took it home. 

A few weeks before the show, the salesman told me he didn't think they were going to be at the show because the show's coordinators were giving them a lot of hassle and run around and it wasn't really worth going.  I was kinda miffed at this so, like an idiot, I fired off an email to the organization running the show chastising them for not working with Timber Harvester and getting them a spot in the show, and how I hoped they would be there as a brand new mill owner etc., etc., etc.

I got a reply explaining to me that TH had been excluded from the show because they had not paid for their site at the show or even sent in a deposit and that this was nothing new from them.  They went on to say that based on their experience dealing with TH, I might want to think about buying from another sawmill maufacturer.  (TH did make it to the show but they had only had one mill there and barely enough room run it.)

This really bummed me out and made me worry because I was already committed and had already sent them 5 grand as a deposit. 

When it was time, the mill came to the house rather than the show, delivered by a guy who lived halfway between me and TH who was a rep of the company.  He was very nice and spent some time showing us how to run the mill and saw.  He left us with the owner's manual and a couple hats and was on his way.  The owner's manual was a joke at best, with over half of it being hand drawn pictures of various parts you may need to order down the road.  The whole manual may have been 15 or 20 pages thick.  That was it.  Nothing else.

Fast forward a few months later and I tried to go to their website, but it was no longer there.  I then tried to call their 1-800 number, but got no answer other than a message telling me that number was not in service.  I tried sending email, but they came back to me.  I tried calling the pay number and got no response.  This was when I had a mill I still owed $20,000 on and was about 3.5 months old.  6 months after all this, I got a letter from some attorney's office telling me that TH had gone through bankruptcy and blah blah blah.  So that was it.  No customer service, no warranty, no parts, nothing.

We ran the mill for 4.5 years and it was a good machine and would saw very well once it was all set up and settled in.  There were some things that could have been better but overall, the mill was a good machine.  I got lucky.

Now we own a Woodmizer and I cannot begin to tell you the difference in dealing with a professional company versus one that seems like it is being run out of someone's garage.  I have no idea what you're looking at, but make sure the people selling it are going to be there before and after the sale.

Good luck!

[Alyeska Pete]

Furu,
My turn to weigh in. 

If your tow vehicle can handle the gross combined weight of the mill and tow vehicle,(by your vehicle manufacturer's specs) it will almost assuredly will handle the tongue weight.
Personally unless I was planning to move the mill several times a week over long distances, I would not worry much about it. On the other hand if I was moving more than sawing and the tongue weight was obviously too heavy or too light, I would simply re-position the head to remedy the imbalance.

If this is not something you think you would want to handle yourself, perhaps you've been looking at the wrong mills. Call Steven or Tim Cook at Cook's Saw Manufacturing (one of many of FF sponsors in the left margin). They will build you virtually any mill you want, and you won't have worry about tongue weight. It will be right. As it would with Wood-Mizer, TimberKing, Baker, or any of the other major manufacturers.
As far as a debarker or mud saw, I find it difficult to understand that if a mill manufacturer advertises a debarker/mud saw, that he would tell you that you didn't want one.

Now everyone take a step back, a deep breath and let's move on to real problems and their solutions.
Pete

(Hope I'm not over-thinking this)

[rmack]

what difference does it make how well it tows if it doesn't cut straight or square?

there are a myriad of other problems that can arise once you start using the mill that will make you forget all about towing issues... except of course, towing it back to the dealer you bought it from.

let it never be said there are no down sides to paying cash.

[cntryby]

You strike me as someone who knows more than the average bear... and NO!!!! you're not over thinking anything! My kids ride with me while I tow all types of stuff, I pass / meet thousands of people on the roads while towing. I want my set up as perfect as I can get it. My family and other innocent peoples lives are at stake. I want my trailer load balanced correctly and my loads secured!

I've put enough miles on the road to see way to many trailer accidents from stupid people that just hooked up and traveled, with no regards to the set up.

I have to remind myself constantly that most folks out there are clueless, a very small percentage has any decent common sense. The same percentage applies to sales people and any other profession.

Depending on what I'm looking at, often I ask to speak with the engineering department, or may just ask for a list of specs to be given an email them the specs I want to know. (give'm a few days to get an engineer to provide them.) With the email, I have documentation if something isn't right.

If they need to use a scale to determine the tongue weight, then let them do it, even if you have to give them a link to a YouTube demo. Its your money, you shouldn't have to show up with scales... that's crazy.

Keep up the responsible knowledge /action, and try not to let "goof balls" frustrate you. Good luck with you endeavors.

[Jeff]

I want my trailer load balanced correctly and my loads secured!

A portable sawmill is NOT a trailer. It is a piece of equipment designed and engineered to be towed as that. It is not something you should be loading anything on and change the way the machine is balanced through its design. Follow the manufacturer's towing instructions with a vehicle that is rated to tow that machine. If you are going to toy around with tongue weight because you are towing outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, then that should be on you to figure that all out, not them, unless you are paying them to custom re-design to your specifications.   I will agree that if a customer wants to know what the tongue weight is before purchase, than get him the info he asked for. Just let them know, it is what it is, because that is how it was designed.

[giant splinter]

I second what Jeff has stated and the input from many of the other members, whatever the tongue weight may be you can rest assured that all of the responsible manufacturer have spent may hours considering every possible factor involved in the trailer end of this equipment ....... your efforts might be better directed in how the mill is engineered and how well it stands up to do what the manufacturers claim they are capable of.
There are a lot of well built mills to choose from and if your going to buy one be sure it comes with FULL factory and dealer support with a realistic warranty to back up the equipment. Better yet find one that will let you return it if you are not happy with it and you will be in a great position to evaluate it for yourself.  ;D

[cntryby]

I want my trailer load balanced correctly and my loads secured!

A portable sawmill is NOT a trailer. It is a piece of equipment designed and engineered to be towed as that. It is not something you should be loading anything on and change the way the machine is balanced through its design. Follow the manufacturer's towing instructions with a vehicle that is rated to tow that machine. If you are going to toy around with tongue weight because you are towing outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, then that should be on you to figure that all out, not them, unless you are paying them to custom re-design to your specifications.   I will agree that if a customer wants to know what the tongue weight is before purchase, than get him the info he asked for. Just let them know, it is what it is, because that is how it was designed.

If you'll read my entire comment, I said, "I tow all kinds of stuff". (I have ten or twelve trailers of varying capacities and purposes.) I never implied that a mill was a trailer to be used for transporting loads. However, that being said, as you said, and as we agree, the manufactures design these machines to be towed as a trailer. If the manufacture has options they should be able to provide specs for anything they offer. It may require relocation of the axle, or adjusting the travel position of the head... etc. But they should have already validated every possible configuration is safe and meets the standards for tongue weight to gross weight ratio required by all trailers.

I also agree that anything done outside of the OEM configuration is on the person who sets it up. I know I wouldn't want to go through the rest of my life being responsible for causing harm or death to anyone else. Especially for something as trivial as transporting a mill and related paraphernalia.

[piller]

I just looked at the Woodmizer web site and their portable sawmills are equipped with what Woodmizer is calling a "trailer package". 

[barbender]

I can't believe this topic has generated 4 pages of responses :