Water in Diesel

[Corley5]

The Fabtek started running rough.  I knew it was fuel filters.  I hadn't changed them since last spring when I got the machine and it was past time.  When I changed them the bowl on the main one was solid ice.  I had to chip it out :  The new filters began to plug almost immediately :-\  I'd never drained the water out of the tank.  I don't think anyone ever had.  I pulled the 3/8" pipe plug out of the tank bottom and had to stick a screw driver in to break through the sludge.  I couldn't believe the amount of water that came out   It ran a full stream for a while to the point I wondered if I'd pulled the wrong plug ;) ;D  This was after I'd been running the machine for a several hours so everything was warm and much of the ice in the tank had melted.  I've drained more water three more times since.  Not as much as the first and less each time but enough.  It's supposed to be fairly warm tomorrow and I hope to get the rest out after the remaining ice melts in the tank.  Then a liberal dose of Sea Foam and a another set of filters and I hope I've got it.  Its water that's been in there.  I run filters on my transfer tanks, use Sea Foam regularly, keep tanks full, and haven't had issues with any other machines.  I've never seen that much water come out of a fuel tank on a machine.  I wish I'd have caught it in a bucket so I knew for sure how much there was but I guess there was at the very least 3 gallons and probably more ;)   Guess I should have drained it sooner  ;D  When it first starting running bad I was cutting a hillside and I think the water level was high enough in the tank that it sucked up water instead of fuel   

[thecfarm]

Would that 911 stuff help? Forgot the name. Or do you just use that Sea Foam? The water must of been there when you brought it.

[Corley5]

I've always had good luck with Sea Foam.  I'm sure the water has been in there.  There's a cover over the fill port plus a big cap so there's no way for rain to get in.  It would take a long time for condensation to add up to that amount.  I think the last crew that ran it was careless with their fuel.

[Mainelogging94]

Where is the fuel pick up in the tank? Maybe your fuel cap vent is leaking or something along those lines, that seems like a awful lot of water for just normal conditions. I would say that the diesel 911 stuff would be a good option, as well as cen-pe-co makes a additive that works well, hopefully you can get it straightened out.

[Gary_C]

I've had a lot of problems with water in the fuel on my Ponsse too. The best solution is to always fill your fuel tank at night when you are done for the day to keep the condensation in those steel tanks under control. And keep the tank full as much as possible.

A friend of mine bought a small forwarder that came from Missouri and as soon as got down to zero he was fighting water/ice in his fuel. You would be amazed at how much condensation there is in those steel tanks.

It's good you got a reminder now before it really got cold. I've lost weeks in below zero weather trying to restart an engine that lost prime because of water.

[coxy]

I put 2 of those little cans of dry gas in there once a week never had any prob

[snowstorm]

with that much water i would look for rust in the tank. i had the same trouble with a cat excavator i bought. i put a magnet on a wire so i could take it out to clean it in the tank along with an inline filter before the pump. it was surprising how much rust the magnet picked up

[barbender]

I've been trying to be in the habit of filling up at night, for that reason. However, I've had to drain the tank on the Ponsse twice, it had zero water in it. I know because it drained on my head while replacing tank shut off solenoids (they are part of the fire suppression system)  :D

[barbender]

BTW, don't dump Diesel 911 in your tank. I don't think it is meant to be a water dispersant, it is designed to de-gel fuel. The can even says  only to use it in emergencies, like a truck froze up on the side of the interstate, hence the 911 name. I think the instructions say to take your filters off and fill them with 911, then dump the rest in the tank. There is no additive that is going to fix whatever is causing Corley's water problem, that's too much H2O.

[1270d]

Power service I think is the brand that makes 911 also have a everyday use additive.  I think this one absorbs some water and lowers the freeze point of the fuel
.  Anyone blending fuel yet?  I should start, getting to that time of year.

[ehp]

Gary has the right answer in my mind as I always do the same thing and keep it full , If you donot fill the tank up after your finished for the day in the cold weather  , In the morning just take a look in the tank and you will see a ton of ice crystals above the fuel line in the tank, remember most fuel systems now a day return warm fuel back to the tank so the tank is quite warm so when it cools down it forms a ton of ice in it

[jwilly3879]

K100 for diesel fuel works wonders and a little goes a long way but not 3 gallons worth.

[Corley5]

  I didn't run the machine today.  I'm far enough ahead of the forwarder that I took today to process some firewood.  He'll catch me by the end of the day tomorrow.  I'm going to change the fuel filters in the AM and also give it an engine oil change.  I drained a tablespoon or so of water out of it this afternoon when I was there.  I was thinking about the condensation issue and I'm sure it's a problem with this machine  ;) ;D  Especially since half the counterweight is fuel and the other half is hydraulic oil which can be fairly warm at times.  It was 105 degrees when I shut it off yesterday.  I'm going to be sure to fuel it at the end of the day.  I'd rather grease and fuel then but don't always.
  I haven't noticed any rust or other particles in the filters and nothing but water came out after the first little bit sludge on the first draining.  It's all been clean including the water since. 

[Dave Shepard]

Recently a fuel supplier known for delivering water contaminated fuel had to have his delivery truck towed. It had 10 gallons of water in the trucks fuel tank. Karma is great. :D

[barbender]

How do water dispersant/absorbents work, anyways? I mean, is the water chemically changed or bonded to something else?

[Ianab]

A "dispersant" would be something like an alcohol. It can mix with both water and oils. A small amount of water will mix with some alcohol, and this then will dissolve in the fuel. As it's dissolved it can pass though the engine without causing as much of a problem. It's not "good", but it's a heck of a lot better than a slug of pure water in the injectors or carb. At least the engine keeps running.

[wolf nemeth]

coxy, can you explain about the dry ice strategy? How and why does  it work?
thanks

[coxy]

I put 2 of those little cans of dry gas in there once a week never had any prob

dry gas  ;D         not dry ice :D    dry gas has alcohol in it to rid it of water   again dry gas ;D

[Ianab]

Which is what I explained in the "dispersant"  post.

But actually, dry ice might help too. Throw some dry ice in the tank, and it would sublimate back into a gas, and could replace the air (and moisture) in the 1/2 full fuel tank? No moist air remains to condense water into the fuel as the temperature drops.

It's actually used on some fuel storage tanks, but mostly to reduce the risk of explosion. Fuel vapour + CO2 = no bang. But it would also reduce condensation in the tank.

[SPIKER]

..

It's actually used on some fuel storage tanks, but mostly to reduce the risk of explosion. Fuel vapour + CO2 = no bang. But it would also reduce condensation in the tank.

On most tanks of fuel the fuel vapors are kept high, no oxygen means the vapor amount can't explode without the O2.   Not saying they would not pressurize with CO2 but why dump in expensive gasses into the tank when vaporization will keep flammability down.

[wolf nemeth]

Ah,  dry ice,...dry gas....what's the difference?  Glad  at least I made you laugh, Coxy.  And thank you both, Spiker and Ianab, for taking the heat off me!!   I WILL read these posts more carefully!

[coxy]

Ah,  dry ice,...dry gas....what's the difference?  Glad  at least I made you laugh, Coxy.  And thank you both, Spiker and Ianab, for taking the heat off me!!   I WILL read these posts more carefully!

not to worry I have done the same got to pick on some one besides me :D

[SawyerBrown]

As a former engine design guy (Cat), can't emphasize enough how important it is to get that water out of the fuel.  The fuel injectors rely on fuel for lubrication for VERY tight clearances (down in the 5 micron range), and water has very low lubricity, which means that at any point when you're running water through them, they could scuff and eventually seize.  Then you're stuck replacing injectors.  That's great news for the engine company (Deere?), who love to sell you replacement parts, but bad news for you.
Most machine manufacturers recommend checking and/or draining water from the fuel DAILY.  I'm not surprised you drained gallons, Corley5, if it's been months or years.
To be on the really safe side, you might think about adding a water separator.  Most have a clear plastic bottom, so any water that gets through settles on the bottom and you can just check it daily and drain as necessary.
Just my 2 cents worth!

[Dieselsteve]

This may have already been said and sorry if it has, but seafoam is one of the best treatments, but with that much water in the tank there is algae in there and that will cause filters to clog also so my recommendation take it or leave it is the company power services the one that makes the diesel 911 which is for gelled fuel also makes a product for algae in the tank that will take care of that problem.

[Corley5]

The injector pump has failed which I'm sure is a direct result of the water problem.  The best part is instead of a Stanadyne pump this engine has a Lucas which costs double to repair.  This has been one VERY expensive learning experience.  I've been around more than one piece of diesel off road equipment and never had this problem.  The pump on this machine was a real PITA to get off too.  Very little room to work between the side of the engine and the counterweight.  Everything has to be accessed from the top or the back end of the engine.  It's been in the single digits for highs.  We broke a bolt off when pulling the pump drive gear.  Luckily a left hand bit turned it out otherwise the radiator etc would have been removed to access the front of the engine.  This hasn't been a pleasant experience in the least.  Because it's a Lucas pump no shops have one on the shelf for an exchange.  I sent this one in to be rebuilt and it should be back the middle of next week but Wednesday is a holiday and it's supposed to back in the single digits for highs again.  If it was a Stanadyne pump I could have had one today and it's supposed to be close to freezing today and in the mid thirties tomorrow.  And the best part is it's got to be reassembled and made to run again.  Once we were into this teardown I was wishing I'd have had a mechanic come out and do it.  It would have been worth the $$$ this time around   I could have found something else to do to make $$$ to pay him 

[SawyerBrown]

Bummer ... sorry to hear that.  My fingers hurt just thinking about working on that pup in these kinds of temperatures ...

[Ken]

Corley5  I don't envy you at all.  I had to replace the injector pump on my harvester early this fall and it was both expensive and a real pain to remove and replace.  I did however have decent weather at the time.  I have found that it is sometimes worth the extra effort to tarp the machine in when doing outside repairs in the winter.  Good luck

[snowstorm]

i rebuilt a motor once under a blue tarp. had a space heater running on a gen set. wasnt all that bad

[barbender]

Corley's, that stinks >:(

[Corley5]

  I learned today that this series of Lucas pump is sensitive to fuel starvation and that is indeed what caused the failure.  I don't know my injector pump terminology but on the bottom side there's a part attached to the pump with a bolt and a stud with a nut.  It has what maybe an electric fuel shutoff on it  ???  Anyway this part was missing the nut for the stud and was wobbling around and blowing fuel out of the seal between it and the main pump body.  The guy at the pump shop said that's what these pumps do when they've been ran out of fuel.  A new pump from JD with mine as a core would be just short of three grand.  This one rebuilt could be upwards of $1,500 depending on how toasted it is.  A Stanadyne pump for this engine would have been in the 800 dollar range and in stock  :( :(  It's the down time that's really bad.  After tomorrow it doesn't look like we'll see 20 degrees until next weekend. 
  This is just another issue in long line this fall.  Two 18.4X26 tires for the forwarder went flat six weeks apart and were beyond repair, a broken piston in the head tilt cylinder on the harvester, a fried starters on the forwarder and the Bobcat, electrical Gremlins in the Fabtek head, steering valves needed to be rebuilt on the forwarder, plus the normal hose failures, hydraulic fluid etc.  It's been one thing after another  arg-smiley arg-smiley smiley_annoyed01  The joys of being in the forest products industry.

[thecfarm]

Corley5,You are having no luck at all. next year will be better.  ;D

[chevytaHOE5674]

Sometimes if you don't have bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all.

[1270d]

Don't worry, sometimes it goes bad for a few weeks and finally gets worse.  ;)

[justincase]

Corley5, I usually don't post just read but I couldn't help feel your pain. I had fuel issues around turkey day, ended up being injection pump ordered one and had one in 3 days. Went back to work engine overheated in about three hours, when I restarted it white smoke like never before. Lowbed back to shop and was head gasket. Had head checked while it was off and it was cracked. Order head from Kentucky put it back together worked it for a day developed a knock at end of day. Had mechanic look at it and said it was an injector. Replaced all 4 injectors, lowbed back to job worked for the day and seemed good. Next morning blue smoke like never before and wouldn't come out of it. Ran rough like one cylinder wasn't firing. Lowbed back to shop compression test shows one bad cylinder so yesterday pulled engine and today I strip it down and rebuild it. It's been a long cold month and my shop doesn't have heat so the fingers are getting a little sore. Luckily I am able to get the engine in my dads woodworking shop which has heat. Gotta love logging!

[coxy]

 how come you could not put the stanadyne pump on it and get rid of the other pump   

[Corley5]

  I'd at least need the injector lines to match the pump, and I'm not sure what else may be different.  Changing pump brands especially at this time of year may be more hassle than it worth and there's already been more than enough hassle  ;) ;D
  I feel your pain Justin    I surely hope mine doesn't morph any further than this. 

[Corley5]

To add insult to injury it appears that the hydraulic pump on the forwarder has failed.  Maybe it's time to apply for a job at Home Depot  :-\

[SawyerBrown]

It's only a few days until the New Year.  I'm hoping all your headaches end in 2013, and 2014 will be much brighter.  Sure looks like it can't get too much worse!   :D  Keep your chin up!

[justincase]

Found the cylinder with bad compression has a melted piston which is weird because it wasn't that way when I put the rebuilt head and head gasket on last week. So I gotta chase that problem. I have a home depot 50 miles away, maybe corley5 and I will be working together.

[snowstorm]

over fueling injector isnt misting the fuel as it should

[Corley5]

OK, that just made my decision for me.  I'm pulling the injectors and having them tested as long as I'm this far into it.  I'd really hate to fry a cylinder too. 

[Gary_C]

I went thru the entire fuel system on my forwarder this fall. The engine just died in the woods one day and couldn't get it started. Changed the filters and reprimed the pump but still no start. So I pulled the wire off the injection pump and checked the voltage and had 24 volts on the wire. So I pulled the pump and took it in and the rebuilder said he found nothing seriously wrong. It needed a rebuild but nothing that would prevent the engine from running. So I pulled the injectors too. Rebuilt all of them too. Put it back together and it still would not start.

Turns out the contacts in the solenoid relay on the forwarder were bad and when I plugged the wire into the injection pump, the voltage went away. It could not pull enough current to pull in the solenoid.

[Corley5]

I just ordered a new set of injectors for the engine.  It's a 6068D JD.  I found them cheap on E-bay.  Less than I could have had the originals tested only to have the shop tell me I needed new ones anyway.  I should have everything in place to put it back together this weekend when the temps are supposed to be a tropical mid twenties.

[Corley5]

Just got off the phone with the pump shop and the news isn't good  :(  What should have been a 1,500.00 -1,700.00 repair has gone to 2,500.00 arg-smiley arg-smiley arg-smiley because part of the housing is broken .  It's replacement cost is $750.00.  This just keeps getting better  :( :'( :'( :( :( smiley_alcoholic_01 smiley_alcoholic_01 smiley_alcoholic_01

[justincase]

Showed the the piston to my mechanic today and the fuel injection shop and both said oh oh. Never good when they say that. Broken land and ring is gone pieces went thru engine and possibly damaged the head that I just put on and possibly turbo too. Then to top it off, drop engine at machine shop and guy behind counter says "boy this is gonna be expensive huh". My reply "it already has been expensive". Nothing better than salt in an open wound. Sorry to hear of your troubles Corley5.

[Corley5]

Sorry to hear of yours Justin    What model engine are you working on  ???

[justincase]

4276t  in a 1985 john deere 440d cable skidder

[Kemper]

Justin, would it not be cheaper to just put in a new engine?

4276t  in a 1985 john deere 440d cable skidder

[justincase]

looking at all my options. If I knew a month ago what I know now yes, but I never thought engine would need a rebuild. Had good power, used no oil, started at 20 below zero. Just like rolling the dice.

[North River Energy]

Corley,
Can you list the number off the pump?  Curiosity is piqued as to why the Lucas repair should be so expensive. The few Lucas/CAV pumps I've seen are licensed copies of the Stanadyne/Roosamaster.  Those are very simple, and the kits are cheap. The expensive breakage is usually the rotor in the head.

Your pump may be a completely different animal...

And best of luck getting it sorted out.

[Corley5]

I'll have it back Thursday or Friday and I'll list the series #.  I didn't write it down 

[timberlinetree]

Hope things start going better for both of you! Might want to check your fuel supply(Dave shapard mentioned)from your distributor and your transfor tank or whatever you use to fill the equipment. Good luck!

[Corley5]

  I've got my parts in place but am waiting a few days to put the machine back together.  We had some firewood orders to full before the arctic blast and some snow to move before more is added.  It's supposed to be much warmer in a few days too 
  I'm pretty sure it's not my supply as there are no issues with the three other pieces of diesel equipment I'm running now although I have changed the filter on the tank just for good measure.  Once we get this thing running again and thawed I'm going to drain the tank into another transfer tank I have with a filter and from there pump it into the tank in the truck.  That'll double filter it and I'll catch whatever water has settled into the bottom of the harvester tank before putting it in the transfer tank.
  I think the lesson here has been that this machine has a severe condensation problem.  It's tank NEEDS to be filled at the end of the day, the filters need to be drained then as well and the drain on the tank needs to be cracked on a regular basis.  And if this ever happens again I'll call somebody and have it fixed  ;)   I wish it back together and running  

[Ed_K]

I have a hand pump on my tank,it was so cold yesterday that the pump wouldn't pick up fuel and fill the tractor  .

[SawyerBrown]

Hey, Corley5, when you say "filter" the fuel I assume you have a water separator on the filter that you can drain?  Otherwise, the filter will just fill up with water, and when it's full you'll start let water through to the tank/engine again.  I'm more familiar with engine filters, where the fuel flow is relatively slow compared to tank-to-tank transfers ... but typically filters are for taking out "solid stuff", not water.  I'm not sure a filter is going to do the job if there's a lot of water.  Since water always settles on the bottom, maybe a good idea to make sure there's no water sitting on the bottom of the tanks first??

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious.

[Corley5]

I use spin on filters designed with water in mind.  Golden Rod part # 596-5 is the one I use or that's the # that Car Quest gets for me with their name on it    I'd have to go out and dig the snow off around the tank to get CQs part # which is a Wix# with a couple extra added 

[Corley5]

It's running.  Finally.  I gave up on it Tuesday afternoon and called a mechanic.  We were having issues getting it bled out.  We'd lost patience and were frustrated to the point of danger  >:(  So I made a couple calls.  Tony came out yesterday and tightened up a couple fittings, replaced a couple fuses and basically checked out what we'd done.  He got it running although it wasn't right but good enough to get it out to the landing.  He came back today and checked some more stuff and found a couple wires pinched behind the AC pump.  He fixed that, loosened the pump up and fiddled with the timing and it's all ready.  For what he charged to come out and finish up the job (clean up the mess  ;))  I should have called him to begin with.  Lesson learned.  It's running and ready to go back to the woods.
  I still need to drain the fuel tank.  I bought a big funnel with a screen in it today.  The transfer tank I have will fit under the machine and I'm going to drain the machine's tank right in to it through the funnel and pump it back out through that tank's filter into the truck tank and then filter it again with that filter.  I'll put new filters on both tanks before I start and let any water from the machine tank out before filling the tank.  Our warm spell is about over with single digit highs forecast for next week.  I guess I'll take a couple more days off rather than push my luck with cold related breakages.  I can't afford any more repairs at the moment  :-\

[Corley5]

  I did learn that to switch to a Stanadyne pump I would have had to have taken the front of the engine apart and changed the position of the timing gear.  There are three marks on it.  One for each for Stanadyne, Lucas and Nippondenso.  A new set of injector lines would have been needed as well as supply and return lines.  The Lucas pump has an electric timing advance unit on the bottom.  I'm not sure how that would have been bypassed or what issues it might have caused in the switch.  That's the part that cost $750.00 in the rebuild.  It's done anyway.

[barbender]

Corley's, something about the sheer amount of water in your tank doesn't add up. I never used to fill my machine at night, always in the morning, and the 2 times I had to drain the tank there was no water in it. It's possible that it's from condensation, but I would be looking really hard for another source of the moisture. Is there anything on top of the tank, such as a gasket around the filler or something, that could be leaking. Last spring my buddies harvester had water leaking into his hydraulic tank from around a gasket on top of it.

[jwilly3879]

Could all that water be vandalism, we've had that around here before?

[Alcranb]

Could all that water be vandalism, we've had that around here before?

I'm thinking like you.  >:(

[Corley5]

Vandalism has crossed my mind  >:( >:( :-\ 

[Corley5]

  So, after 15 months the electronic ignition advance on the bottom of my pump is leaking fuel and no longer advancing the timing for whatever reason  arg-smiley arg-smiley   Hopefully it hasn't damaged the pump itself.  The pump needs to be pulled and sent in to the injection shop anyway.  Through out the winter I noticed on occasion that the machine didn't have the power it should have had and blew some black smoke under load.  I'd change the fuel filters immediately and it seemed to solve the problem.  I did this more than once.  Several times actually and enough that I'd need to go back through my Car Quest invoices to see just how many.  We did notice some frost in the filter pleats.  I've regularly changed the filters since the last episode, try to keep the tank full and drain the water on a very regular basis to prevent a repeat of events.  I've noticed very little water in the filters but always get some out the tank.  I guess preventive maintenance didn't do much good this time.  If moisture is the cause ??? :  Friday it started with the smoking and reduced power.  I'd lose 500 RPMs when I kicked in the saw and it also seemed to have a miss that I hadn't noticed before.  I could feel it in the seat   Installed new fuel filters and it made no difference.  Went ahead and did new air filters and hydraulic filters too.  No difference and then I noticed a bit of red fuel on the belly that wasn't from the filter change.  Not wanting to get involved with the mess from last time I called Tony, the mechanic.  He came out today, looked everything over and confirmed my suspicions.  We were hoping the pump had loosened up and slipped time.  No such luck.  He'll be back in a couple days after he wraps up a couple other jobs to pull the pump so I can get it sent out for repair.  That'll be a few days to get it back and a day or so for him to get it back together.     
  I didn't record the machine's hours when the new pump was installed.  Bad me :(  But I really don't think I've cut over 2,000 cord with it since the new pump and 2,000 I think is on the high side but without going over scale slips it's just an estimate.  I cut 488 cords on a private landowner a year ago and the other cords have been on family ground and the MiDNR sale I'm currently working.  I only run it four- five hours a day to keep ahead of the old forwarder.  The rest of my time is spent fixing it ;) : running firewood or working in/on something else.  If I average 5.5 cords an hour and produced 2,000 cords that's 364 actual run time.
   Guess I'll strap on my saw and hand cut the saw log/bolt trees for a while.  I'll save the pulp for the machine.  I have to be out of this job by 4/15 and can't come back until 7/15 because of bark slip.  I've got other places to go but just paid for this unit and am about a third done.  I was hoping to have it knocked out by the deadline  :  We lost a couple days last week pulling the engine and tranny out of the forwarder.  We did a clutch job and had the tranny rebuilt last summer.  A few weeks ago the bolts that hold the tranny to the bell housing decided to loosen up.  With no mount under the transmission its weight pulled the threads out of the bell housing.  We kept it together as long as possible with thread repair compound and JB Weld and made it until the weather warmed up a bit.  A day and half to pull it, put through bolts with lock nuts and lock tite and make it run again.  We could have done it in a day but we were both getting ill tempered by the time the engine was bolted back in place the end of the first day  ;D 
  My Mother in Law works at Home Depot and says she can get me in  ;) ;D
 
         

[lopet]

If you think you are having a bad day, there is always somebody who has it worse.
Sorry for your luck man, maybe the pump fix is not all that bad.  I hear your frustration, it always happens when you have to meet a deadline.

[Corley5]

It can always be worse  ;D  I've just about gotten used to it  : :D

[InterMechanico]

Hi Corley.If you're still having a problem with moisture in your fuel, perhaps I can help you find the cause. As previously mentioned by barbender, a look at the top seams of your fuel tank is a good idea. A crack will definitely allow moisture to enter the system. Also, don't forget that there is a breather/filter for your tank, usually incorporated into your filler cap. Keep in mind that for every gallon of fuel you burn, a gallon (by volume) of outside air has to replace it. There are moisture wicking breathers available from companies like Donaldson, and they do make a big difference in areas with high humidity. Replacing the gasket or O-Ring on the cap may improve the situation as well.

Next up is the installation of a Water Separator. I haven't read that you've been draining your filters, so I assume you haven't got one installed. Racor is by far the most well known name in the fuel filtration business, and should be readily available in most areas. Different models are available, depending on your engines' horsepower rating. Assuming you're around the 225 horsepower range, a Racor R45P should be just right, R90P if you want a little more capacity (grams of dirt). Be sure to get a bowl with a heater as well, as you seem to be running in very cold (by my Vancouver standards) weather.

Caterpillar fuel caps have for years said "Buy Clean Fuel, Keep It Clean"

Most contaminants get into compartments when checking levels or through faulty breathers.

Good Luck.

Julian

[Corley5]

  It's got two filters and both have water bowls on them.  There's the JD filter on the engine and a large water separator filter on the wall of the engine compartment.  I do drain them when I drain the tank ;D and get very little if any water out of the bowls.  I use Car Quest filters which are now made by Baldwin.  Wix used to make them.  I've looked at the cap closely and did replace the gasket on the fuel gage sending unit after the last go round.  It may have been leaking.  The fuel cap screws onto a large pipe nipple welded into the top of tank and is well above the surface.  I've looked around the base for cracks in the weld.  The cap and the sending unit are both under a flip open cover which gives some protection from precipitation.  I'll have to look into just how the tank is vented and look at the cap more closely.  There isn't any kind of breather filter in it.  It's a just a big screw on cap but must have a vent hole because I don't think there's any other vent.  Not one on any external surfaces anyway.  I don't know that moisture was the cause this time  ???  Maybe just a faulty ignition advance?
  I have no issues with moisture in any of my other pieces of diesel equipment and it all comes from the same place.  The forwarder, and Bobcat run fuel from the same supplier and it all goes through my truck transfer tank which has a spin on water filter too.  I've also ran the very same fuel through my Dodge Cummins and Ford Power Stroke with no filter/water issues. 
  I was told before that these Lucas pumps are extra sensitive to water and fuel starvation.  I was thinking last night that maybe the mechanical lift pump on the engine could be weak ??? Maybe ??? And starving the injection pump for fuel ???  But the manual pump part of it works fine to prime and bleed the filters and there's no fuel flooding the crankcase or external leaks.  Anybody else had issues with Lucas injection pumps  ???  I'd like to put a Standyne pump on it but there's quite a bit involved in that especially when the machine is on a log landing.  It might be different if it was sitting next the shop.
 

[snowstorm]

i bought a new injection pump last spring. the lucas pump i had i took to the fuel shop and was told it needed a new rotor and a lot more. they said if they could find the parts it would cost as much as buying new. and that lucas is gone closed . the new pump i got was made by delphi. it looks just like the lucas so maybe they bought lucas cav. it wasnt cheap at $3400 but it runs really good

[InterMechanico]

Do you have any sections of rubber fuel line between the tank and the lift pump that may be collapsing and starving the lift pump. I'd imagine that you should have around 12-18 psi of fuel pressure after the lift pump under load. Just install a 0-100 psi gauge after the transfer pump and use the travel function on the Fast setting to load up the engine. The actual fuel pressure specification will be available from the injection shop.

It may even be a good investment to permanently install a fuel pressure gauge in the cab to monitor fuel pressure while you're operating, as you would with engine oil pressure.

Air ingress (aeration) into the fuel system can be very damaging as well. Normally verified by installing a "Glass Eye" on the inlet side of the lift pump to observe any bubbles that float past. A thorough visual inspection of the fuel line should rule this out, but plunger type primer pumps can be a problem.

Check the following for restrictions:

1) Fuel hose collapsing , could be an indication of plugged breather on tank ( Seen most recently on Cat 320C Excavator; slow degradation of performance over 12 months)
2) Restriction in pre-filter screen, I've come across these inside of Banjo bolts, would be before Water Separator (Seen mostly on Japanese fuel systems, but worth a look)
3) If there is a primer pump on one of your filter housings, they can become clogged with rust scale, wax build up, etc. Even if your primer is not located on the filter housing, I recommend you remove both filters and use a mirror and light to carefully check for blockages in the filter housings themselves. (I have found this on many occasions).

Can you post a couple Engine Pictures?

Hopefully nothing too major has gone wrong.

[Corley5]

These were taken a year ago last January when we were putting the new/rebuilt pump on.  It does have Delphi tags on it.  You can't see much of the engine and most of the work to get the injection pump off and on is done by feel.  The JD filter is in the pic.  The larger water separator filter is behind the hydraulic oil filler pump.  It's a JD 6068D naturally aspirated.



 



 



 

[Corley5]

I'm off to sharpen saw chains and get a couple saws ready to kill trees.  A little exercise for a few days will do me good  ;) ;D

[snowstorm]

was it a new pump or reman? mine was new. i dont know if my old one had ever been replaced if not it had 16000hrs on it. it still ran ok but would not start when hot

[Corley5]

It was mine rebuilt.  It was quicker to rebuild mine with parts off their shelves than order in a complete reman unit.  They called it a Lucas.  I don't remember if they changed the tags to Delphi or if they were Delphi when we took it out.  It was over a year ago    It did cost $2,500.00 even which was considerably less than pump from JD.  The ignition advance on the bottom of the pump was $750.  That's what appears to be not working and leaking again.  The machine still runs fairly well.  The last time I was lucky to get it out of the woods.  The engine supposedly has less than 4,000 hours on it.  I don't know if the pump was replaced/redone at that time.  Tony should be out in the AM to start taking it apart.

[Corley5]

  Tony got the pump off Saturday.  We had a stretch of nasty cold, damp, windy weather but Saturday was really nice.  It appears to be leaking at the actuator.  It's a wax motor that advances the timing as the engine warms up.  It's original to the pump before it was rebuilt last time.  That's what color its paint matches.  I'm not real happy that I spent $2,500 on a rebuild and they reused it  : :(  The mechanical part of the advance unit housing and all was replaced yet they chose to reuse the electric part.   I made my feelings known at Car Quest today when I dropped it off for them to send it to the shop.  It's not their fault.  I'm going to have the whole thing tested as long as it's off again.  My concern is why is there fuel leaking around this thing?  Is there supposed to be fuel behind it?  It'll go downstate tomorrow via UPS maybe by Wednesday I'll know something.  We're also going to replace the coolant temperature sensor on the engine that controls this thing while were at it.  The wiring coming out of it is pretty rough.  I need to call AIS tomorrow about getting one.
  Spent the last couple days cleaning and organizing the landings getting ready to pull out of this job until late summer.  Also laid out a few sugar maple veneer log candidates for the buyer to look over tomorrow.   

[lopet]

Is that the little black thing  at the bottom of the pump laying on your tail gate ?

[lumbertick]

Call Gary at diesel fuel injection... 989-892-0557.. He is out of bay city... Guy knows everything about those.. Usually has a reman right on the shelf he will just swap you yours. We just bought a new one from AIS this winter for ours... Gary didn't have a reman and we couldn't wait 3 days to have ours rebuilt.. You are right they are a bugger to get on and off..

[Corley5]

  Pump should be back to CQ tomorrow.  The shop, it may be the one you recommend LT, bench tested and replaced the bad actuator.  No charge.  They didn't replace it at the initial rebuild because they seldom go bad  :-\  It's still pretty costly for me.  Just glad I've had firewood orders to fill.  It's keeping me ahead actually.  Maybe we'll be running in a few days.
  I'm stilling waiting on the temperature sensor.  It took a dozen blue paper towels, a can of ether and a lot of scrubbing to clean the engine tag so I could see the serial number.  I also needed a mirror to read it because there's no room to look at it otherwise.  AIS had to have the # to get the part.  I found the tag by feeling the rivets and then the edges.  According to my book it was on the end of the engine behind the filter right under the head.  This one is on the side of the engine next to the filter 
  The actuator is the part pointing towards the head end of the pump with what appear to be brass fittings.

[barbender]

What a pain >:(