Adirondack logging

rockman · December 30, 2011, 07:47:44 AM

Hitech, I agree the "Forever Wild" needs to managed although I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes. As far as the equipment being bigger and operators doing more with less (employees), it's the same in every industry.
When I was growing up there was a sawmill or two in every town in the Adirondacks, most of the construction workers would cut wood in the winter after the construction season, I'm afraid those days are gone forever.
It is fun to see the video and old photo's of the way it used to be.

Kevin

HiTech · December 30, 2011, 09:40:34 AM

Rockman, back then you could get real lumber...not the undersized toothpicks they sell today. I can remember when you could buy 24" boards that hardly had any knots in them. Yup, every town had a sawmill. Some had tanneries also. Even the bark wasn't wasted.

wilson_tree · December 31, 2011, 12:44:45 PM

That video is good. I work with the wife of one of the guys on the cross cut saw. Last summer my kids and I hiked up to Roaring Brook Falls outside Keene Valley. On the trail above the Falls is a stand of old growth Hemlock. It took three boys to reach around that tree. It was a sapling when Samuel De Champlain was exploring Lake Champlain. I believe Forever Wild should stay that way. There is a difference between a forest left on its own and one that's managed even a little bit. I grew up logging the woods around Keene and Lake Placid and I would not trade the Forever part of Forever Wild for some cash in hand today. I still do some small woodlot thinning and harvest the occasional load of sawlogs for private landowners. Last year I worked in a small sawmill. I'm not disconnected from the forest economy, but I don't think it can provide an economic fix for the region or the state. This is a great discussion and I love hearing from other members in the Adirondack Park. Thanks and Happy New Year.

JohnG28 · January 01, 2012, 08:29:07 PM

Rockman, thanks for posting that video. I have seen it before somewhere, I want to say that it is part of a display at the ADK museum, but I'm not positive. There is a great display of old Adirondack Logging at the museum. Trapper2, I have an uncle that lives in Queensbury, it's a really nice area there. Wilson-tree, I see your from Keene. My wife and I are going there in a couple weeks to the Dartbrook Lodge for a little break. I look forward to it as I have never been there before. My family has a place in the southern Adirondacks, on Otter Lake. I can't think of much better place to spend my time, when time permits. There is the remains of a former Veneer Mill close to our camp, on the bank of the Moose River in McKeever. There's not a whole lot left now. My brothers and I have been through there many times though. I have a few photos of it then and now though. Wish I could have seen this place in it's day.

The little peninsula in the foreground of the last photo is where a dam once stood, creating a huge pond for logs to gather for the mill. I can't seem to find that picture at the moment. ???

rockman · January 01, 2012, 08:37:43 PM

johnG28, thanks for the photo's, I love to see any and all photo's of the old days. The museum in Blue Mtn. Lake sells a video called Adirondack Sky Pilot all about the logging camps, log drives, tanneries etc. it is an awsome video if you get the chance.

Kevin

rockman · January 01, 2012, 08:42:06 PM

I was incorrect about the name of the video, the correct title is Lumberjack Sky Pilot.

Kevin

JohnG28 · January 02, 2012, 04:44:35 PM

Kevin, thanks for the tip on the video. I'll have to look for it next time I'm up there. My wife and I stopped in Sep on our way down from Lake Placid. I'll have to look for some more pictures, I know I have some more on my computer somewhere. I love anything from the old days too. I also agree with the forever wild concept, although the APA does have some work to do on other policies IMO.

HiTech · January 03, 2012, 06:05:55 AM

The Adirondack Park will never be the Virgin Timber it was it the late 1800's to early 1900's. I agree management of the Park is a must but is over management a good thing? When I was a kid I would drink out of any creek or stream up there...never got any disease. Today it could put you in the Hospital. I feel if we don't do a better job of managing it...Mother Nature may and we will probably not like what she does. She has a way of reclaiming and rejuvenating that can be devastating. One of the reasons she put beaver and porcupines on earth. The beavers flood and area killing all the trees and then leave when the food is gone. The damns eventually break and the flooded area turns into lush vegetation for the animals to dine on. The porcupines will girdle trees killing them, thus doing some thinning. Also they will chew off little hemlock branches in the winter and the deer feast on these. Logging serves a purpose other than putting $$$ in someone's pocket.

KBforester · January 03, 2012, 06:33:52 AM

You can still drink the water our of Adirondack streams. Can't tell you how many times I ran out of water lugging two gallons of tree paint on my back in the middle of July. Just gotta make sure the terrain doesn't flatten off above you... those beaver are the ones that will make you sick.

rockman · January 03, 2012, 08:36:07 AM

Quote from: KBforester on January 03, 2012, 06:33:52 AM
You can still drink the water our of Adirondack streams. Can't tell you how many times I ran out of water lugging two gallons of tree paint on my back in the middle of July. Just gotta make sure the terrain doesn't flatten off above you... those beaver are the ones that will make you sick.

Did you work for Finch or I P ?

wilson_tree · January 03, 2012, 12:13:33 PM

Those old pictures are great. Thanks for sharing them. I used to drink the water when I was a kid, too. I still don't understand why Giardia is worse now then 30-40 years ago. Is it from more human traffic in the backcountry or just from animals? If it's from animals, why wasn't it a problem in the past?

I do think the Adirondacks can have virgin growth again, just not in our lifetimes. As the forests go through their natural cycle of regeneration, new timber will grow that hasn't been managed by anything but mother nature, and our great grand kids will have an Adirondack Park filled with old growth and wild places. It sounds hopelessly romantic, but it's important to leave nature some place to thrive. I look at the trade off for not protecting the Park. Is it worth it to mess with the woods on a big scale for a short term economic gain? Look at Tupper Lake as an example. The town boomed on the timber industry for many years, but now that the timber money is gone the town is struggling to create a new future. Can you create a sustainable timber economy? How many people does it need to support in order to make it worth the cost of the impact it has? The APA is a big gorilla, and I have dealt with their regulations and hated it, but I still think it's better to have the gorilla.

HiTech · January 04, 2012, 05:02:45 AM

Before white man came and really started to screw up the country..the Indians used to manage the forests with fires. Once they burned an area then they would have berry crops and vegetation for the game animals they used for food and clothing. I guess huge trees are nice to look at if that's all you want...like I said I can show you places in the Adirondack's that the sunlight doesn't hit the ground. What good is having a mature canopy forest? No saplings, no berries, nothing grows under these trees. I sometimes think people might better be more concerned with the salt the State spreads on the roads like Holy Water. What is that doing to our environment. Drive through the Adirondack's in the summer and see where the trees and vegetation have been burnt by the salt.

John Mc · January 04, 2012, 08:58:47 AM

I agree that NY state seems to have a love affair with salt. When I lived in the Syracuse area, the roads were white all winter long... but it was from the salt, not the snow.

I have to disagree with the characterization that nothing grows in a mature forest. In an earlier it was mentioned "not even wildlife" grows there. That is not true. Changing the makeup of the forest will change the species of wildlife that use it, but there are a number of species that use mature forest, just as there are a number of species that use early successional forests, and everything in between. There is a place for "forever wild" in this world. Has the Adirondack Park struck the right balance between forever wild and working forest? Probably not, but I'm not sure who is to say what the "right" balance is.

HiTech · January 05, 2012, 04:46:25 AM

Ever try to follow the Albany Trail? I tried a few times when I was younger. That was before the GPS. It took me to some magnificent spots in the Adirondacks. I found some stuff that was left along the Trail. Never sure if it was from old logging outfits or something from the Albany Trail days. In places you could see where a road had been at one time. Legend has it that a gold shipment sunk somewhere out there...never to be found. Along this trail exploration I found many places sunlight didn't hit the ground. I found evergreens that 4 or 5 men could barely get their arms around. These trees were huge. Not sure what type of creature uses this type of forest but I didn't see any. It looked like most of these trees came over with Columbus. I found Brook Trout out there that would easily break the State weight record. I had to cut some in 3 to 4 pieces to cook them in my fry pan. I was probably the only person out there as there was no trail to follow or camp sites set up. I saw no signs of trees ever being cut in most places. This was probably as close to Forever Wild as you could get. A compass and a map as your trail. I often thought it would be nice if the State opened the old Albany Trail up for hikers. Albany to Ogdensburg just think of it...you would see some Forever Wild and some would probably have houses on it. Just like the Erie Canal...progress has destroyed much of that. The Adirondack's are sort of a "Catch 22" situation.

sailorman · January 05, 2012, 07:29:04 AM

HiTech, What is the "Albany Trail"? Never heard a refernce to that. I live in Queensbury and have spent a great deal of time in the park, hiking, climbing, camping ect but never heard a refernce to that. Do you have any links to info on it? I take it that it is an abandoned road of some sort?

HiTech · January 06, 2012, 08:40:07 AM

From what I read it was a means of getting supplies from Ogdensburg to Albany or vice versa. I think mainly it was a Military Route. Another piece of our history in growing America. I think I found the map in National Geographic when they did an article on it. I am talking 40 years ago. Perhaps you could find something in a Library on it. I know it took me into some uncharted lands as far as I was concerned. There were times I was a little nervous if I would find my way out again. I found a huge iron box somewhere out there. It must have been 8 foot long, 4 foot high and 4 foot wide. It was flat on top for about a foot then hinged and took a downward slant. I did manage to get the top up a little and with the use of my flashlight found it contained compartments of various sizes. It was all riveted together...so I took it it was old. Never had a clue what it was used for. There was nothing inside and I could find no markings on it. I am almost positive I don't have that map anymore, but I am an awful pack rat so I may. If I run across it i will let you know.

Bret4207 · January 08, 2012, 06:59:20 PM

Rockman and Taper, I'm from North Crick too! Knew Mr Earl Allen and Rev Daisy. Pansy, etc. Went to JCS, I'm sure we all know each others relations. Left there, went to wrenching on saws in Newcomb and Tupper, got a cushy state job ( worked with a Dabala guy) and have been up in the Ogdensburg area for close to 20 years. Getting back to wrenching on saws for a part time living. One brother still lives in NC and works at Gore.

If you ever went to J+Js you probably went to my folks place too, Basil and Wicks or Ridings depending on how long ago it was.

Small world, eh?

As far as the Adirondacks go there used to bee what? 8-10 mills in the North Creek area alone, plus IP and Finch. You couldn't get through down town most days with out almost getting squarshed by a log truck. Newcomb, Tupper, Old Forge, Racquette, Long Lake, Conifer and Piercefield were all booming from logging and mines. Now it's welfare, prisons, a few skiers that would just as soon be in Vermont if they could afford it and welfare. The total mismanagement, or lack of management, is a sin and a crime against the people living there. It drove me out as much as anything else. Remember Cuomo Srs 21st Century Bond Act? When they started talking about the restrictions he wanted, roof color etc, I'd had enough.

Ah, enough whining. Time to go through some wood on the fire.

rockman · January 08, 2012, 07:22:40 PM

Hey Bret, it's like old home week here. Interesting to see how small the world has gotten.

Kevin

tractorhal · January 12, 2012, 11:09:06 AM

A little further North. Grew up in Whiteface area. Haselton Lumber,Ward lumber, JJ Rogers of Ausable Forks was big user of pulp. Both lumber cos. still going but do not know if they saw or truck it and resell. Tupper Lake also had a wood bowl?? co and the wood wood be stacked for 1/2 mile along Rt.3 headed west.Have some pictures of working in woods,all with horse, someday post. Remember when the first trails were cut for Whiteface Mt. ski center. Put Marble Mt. out of business. Plattsburg had paper cos. Tie still does some.

wilson_tree · January 13, 2012, 07:16:50 PM

Nice memories. My brother worked for Sam Haselton for 10 years. They don't mill any more, but did do some molding for a while. Ward Lumber is still big. I think they are one of only two pine mills in all of New York State. Tupper Lake does not have a mill any more and the Wooden Bowl Co has been closed for a while. A Vermont mill had a concentrating yard in Tupper, but I don't think that is even open any more. There is a small mill in Lewis that does pallet stock and some dimensional lumber. I'm headed there tomorrow. There are still lots of small mills that are one or two man operations. Lots of low grade being chipped now and trucked to Burlington, VT, Ticonderoga, and I'm not sure where else. There are only a few of the little ski areas open now. Mt Pisgah in Saranac Lake is operated by the town and Big Tupper is operated by volunteers. My grandfather logged in the Lake Placid, Keene, and Redford areas in the 50's and 60's. Then my dad and my brothers logged in Keene in the 70's and 80's. Do you ever come back for a visit? Joe Pete Wilson

rockman · January 13, 2012, 07:36:12 PM

Wilson_tree, Yes, We travel back every summer for a week or so to the in-laws in Schroon Lake, no matter where I live Essex county will always be Home.

Kevin

tractorhal · January 16, 2012, 07:39:57 PM

I get back to the "North Country" occasionally, not as much as I should, or like to. I know where your(Grandfather, Father's) place is,was in Keene. Gordon's? JD? Who is JD in Plattsburg? During 40's 50',2-3 of my uncles worked for Willard and Charles. One worked his whole career there. Planer. My Grandfather and I cut pine by hand, skidded to landing with horse and Uncle would get truck on weekend, drive to landing through the woods from mill, saw, on his time? We would us for fences, barn repairs.

wilson_tree · January 17, 2012, 05:41:41 PM

Rockman, Schroon Lake is a beautiful place. We spent a summer in Paradox once when I was a kid. We used to love going to the Sugar Bowl. TractorHal, that was my grandfather and uncle Gordon who started the JD dealership. My dad was younger and worked for them. My dad was talking about cutting and peeling pulp when he was a kid. I thought cutting and stacking 4 foot pulp sticks was bad, but at least we didn't have to peel it. JD in Plattsburgh is Nortrax. JD forced all the independent owners to sell to big regional congrlomerates so they could control pricing and inventory more effectively. My dad is selling the last bit of property in Keene that is left over from the old JD days. I pulled some chainsaws out of one of the barns: a Strunk, a Reed-Prentice Timberhog, and a couple Malls from the early 50's. The R-P still had a tag on it, but I couldn't read the price. It would be great to see some pictures from those days in the Adirondacks. I don't think those guys ever thought of taking pictures of work, though. Why the heck would you want to remember all those hours of busting your back?

Bret4207 · January 29, 2012, 01:33:30 PM

There are people around with photos and film from back int he 40's, 50's, 60's. Finding them is tough though. IIRC the Northern Logger had a mess of that stuff but it might have gone to the Blue Mt museum. Rev Frank Reed "The Lumberjack Sky Pilot" had a big bunch of film he shot. The Watertown PBS station had aVCR they offered at one time of Bill Saifs "Cabin Country" episode that they were giving away with a pledge. Not sure if it's still available.

ETA- Hey! Here it is! http://www.adirondack-books.com/wpbspilots.html