IF you knew then what you know now.....

[jcrumley]

I am new here but have been reading here for a couple of years.  I am a weekend woodworker with a lot of good woodworking tools but I didn't start out that way.  I spent a lot and wasted a lot trying to find what works for me.  One of the things that keeps me coming back to this place is the amazing free advice you experienced guys share.  

I have been thinking serious about getting a mill to start building a sawmill/woodworking set up to make some money when I retire in a couple of years hopefully.  I don't want to buy the wrong mill and have to upgrade later.  I plan on doing custom sawing and milling whatever I need for my own woodworking.

So, here is my question, If you had a budget of say 100K (just for fun) what mill, kiln, tractor, whatever, other equipment would you get?  

[ladylake]

 If I knew what I know now I'd have started when I was 25 rather than when I was 50.  You'll need a hydraulic mill preferably with a diesel.  Look for one that has low maintenance, better to be sawing than fixing or waiting for parts that can't be bought uptown.  Steve 

[jcrumley]

lol That is going to be hard to beat.  I will get a hydraulic mill for sure, can't work like when I was 25.

[Wayniac]

where in alabama

[jimbarry]

For 100k,

• the simple design of a manual mill means less parts to maintain
• a grapple and skidsteer for moving around the yard
• a truck with grapple for pickup and delivery
• a chop saw to maximize profits

Having a wife who enjoys working along side you... priceless.




 



 



 



 

[jcrumley]

Near Anniston/Oxford. 

That grapple truck looks handy.

[Trackerbuddy]

Chopsaw?  For cutting slabs into firewood? You're ringing every penny out of that log.
Can that grapple on the truck be changed out with forks for delivering bundled lumber?
What about a tractor with a front loader or an articulated loader instead of the skid steer?
If you have a loader of some sort do you need a hydraulic loader on the saw??
Forks vs grapple.
Pole barn or shed for working in the shade or out of the rain?

[mike_belben]

Yes, a knuckle crane can run a dangle rotator fork (aka sheetrock forks, material handler forks etc) but the price to buy them will buy thousands of firewood sacks from vietnam which will be much, much more valuable delivered firewood than bundled slabs which are worth very little.. And that grapple can unloaded the loop sacks no problem.


Cheap example

Material Handling Forks - Truck Utilities




A skid steer is designed for its full rated capacity on the front axle.. Even if you flip it the axle housings wont care.  A tractor is much more likely to break a steer knuckle.  If you dont like bobcats and want a bargain for the money, compact articulated wheel loader with a quick attach and aux hyd ports for a grapple is where its at.  Straight axle and high ply rubber.  Theyll pick 6-10k no problem without rutting the lot up.

An old backhoe, skip loader or maybe a case W11, W12, W14 are workhorses for budget folks.  Especially if log trucks are in your future.   A self loader load can command a premium for the unloading. 

[moodnacreek]

I would have built lumber sheds first and put the sawmill back in a corner up on piers [second story[. 
putting the mill in the middle of the yard was a huge mistake and trying to build sheds when you are sawing is too much. I could go on and on, did it all wrong.

[GAB]

I would have built lumber sheds first and put the sawmill back in a corner up on piers [second story[.
putting the mill in the middle of the yard was a huge mistake and trying to build sheds when you are sawing is too much. I could go on and on, did it all wrong.

"I could go on and on, did it all wrong."
Don't beat yourself up too badly, as you are not the only one.
If we all had the hindsight vision to start some of us could have saved a lot of time and coins.
GAB

[mike_belben]

I could go on and on, did it all wrong.

Yeah, story of my life.
  Its a bit tormenting how ya finally wisen up right about the time when you dont have the energy or drive or physical ability to start over anymore. 

[Magicman]

Yup, we do not get "undo's" nor "redo's".  We get one chance to screw up and usually succeed!!  :

[doc henderson]

well some feel we learn more from our mistakes... so.  I am happy as a hobby guy with a skid steer, with a bucket for grade, and cleanup work.  forks to move slabs and pallets.  a grapple for logs and brush.  a crane to lift logs out of trucks and trailers.  I have a mid sized hydraulic mill.  I have a 1 ton truck and a 32 foot gooseneck trailer rated for 18K net.  If you buy quality used stuff, if it turns out to not fit your bill, you can get most of your money out of it.  I think a skid steer works better around a mil as you can spin on a dime.  if you buy attachments, and need a bigger skid steer later, you can still use most attachments.  The dealers and service people are most important, especially if you buy used.  My Cat 277c I got used with a bucket.  already had the forks, grapple and crane.  sold my old wheeled 2060 mustang for what I had paid for it used, and got the use with repairs for years.   My midsized mill is able to cut within 3 inches of the width of their biggest commercial mill.  I bought the mill new, but would not be afraid to buy used.  If you want to sell lumber and or milling services, you need a medium mill.  if just for you could be a smaller one.  the advantage of not getting in a hurry and buying it all on day one, is deals come along and you have a chance to see how things work together.  I had a 7 k car trailer I moved my first skid steer with.  bigger tracked skid loader to put our pool in (it could walk on fresh sand).  now i needed a bigger trailer and a truck to pull it.  all my stuff is matched with other stuff.  i only have had to trim a log once I could not safely load and trans port.  green 4 foot diam. elm, 14 feet long.  cut it to an 8 foot log, and put it on the trailer.  still have not milled it as it is too big for my mill as is.  over time you will find weak links and can upgrade as needed.  beats buying something so big, it is not supported by you other equipment.  

[jimbarry]

Chopsaw?  For cutting slabs into firewood? You're ringing every penny out of that log.
Can that grapple on the truck be changed out with forks for delivering bundled lumber?
What about a tractor with a front loader or an articulated loader instead of the skid steer?
If you have a loader of some sort do you need a hydraulic loader on the saw??
Forks vs grapple.
Pole barn or shed for working in the shade or out of the rain?

We cut slabs and off cuts and then split into kindling, even better profit.   Absolutely, nothing is wasted. Grapple can stay on, it can grab a set of forks to lift whatever is on a pallet. Tracked skidsteer, very versatile, and I am limited for space for where I am at and where I tend to get myself sometimes. 
Sawmill is all manual. I use the grapple on the skidsteer to  move around the heavy stuff. I have forks too and they come in handy for moving the pallets of lumber away from the mill and into storage area.
Barn or shed would be nice but I don't mind working in the rain. The harder it rains the happier I am. When you're born on an island out in the North Atlantic Ocean, you tend to look at weather a little differently that most. ;) 


 

[jimbarry]

...Cheap example Material Handling Forks - Truck Utilities ...

$2K for one of those isn't a bad price to pay. It would probably cost me near that to get something half as good made locally.

[GAB]

Mr. Jcrumley Sir:
Knowing very little, I started with nothing and still have all of it left, my suggestion would be to purchase a hydraulic wide head mill like an (W-M) LT40 with a diesel engine that you can add an extension bed to later on, and an idry kiln capable of drying 16'-8" lumber.  
If you plan on doing custom sawing, at customer locations, the log moving equipment will do you no good, unless you make an additional trip to get it and that costs time and money that the customer may not be willing to pay for.
At this time I'm thinking that you may not have a feeling as to what your market might be so you need the option of being able to change or add variables without having to sell what you have to purchase something else.
As an example - I had a request to saw some long timbers and I told the asker that I could only saw so long but that I would supply him with the serial number of my mill and he could purchase an extension bed that would fit my mill and when the job was done I would remove the extension bed from my mill and he could do what he wanted with it.  He decided not to do it.  Note: I did not tell him no.
Please note that I have an LT40 and most of my experience is with that mill.  That does not mean that other mills might not be better fit for you.
Another suggestion would be to plan on staying home and playing with the mill in your yard for at least one year to get acclamated to it before putting on shows that will be the talk of the town for years to come.  Some of those shows are not good advertising.
You could also find out that your best market is drying wood.  One day I spoke with a man who had 4 wood drying kilns and had a backlog of work waiting for him.
Another suggestion would be to spend some time and visit people with mills that you are considering.  I would suggest that you spend a few hours off bearing each one.  You may appreciate some mill designs better that others.
Like it has been said by someone on the forum and probably else where we like to spend other peoples money.
I hope view helps you and I wish you the best.
GAB

[SawyerTed]

Knowing what I know now?  These are my thoughts at nearly three years in.

I would only saw to sell high quality kiln dried hardwood.  No trailer decking for sale and no framing lumber for sale. Everyone wants 16'-20' trailer decking, log acquisition and lumber handling makes trailer decking more expensive than my market supports.  Too many want the local custom sawmill to sell framing lumber at prices less than the local builder supply and box stores. I quit trying to compete in the retail framing and utility lumber market. I will go portable and saw whatever a customer wants from his/her logs. 

I would choose a higher production mill that would still be reasonably portable like an LT 40 Super Hydraulic or LT 50. I should have purchased sharpening equipment when I bought the mill - it would have paid for itself in 20 months. 

I would build a sawmill shed/sharpening shed and separate lumber storage early on.  

I would develop a working waste disposal plan.  Sawdust doesn't require the forethought that slab disposal does. 

I would put in a Nyle L200M 40' container kiln. Sawing and selling air dried hardwood is profitable but kiln drying that same lumber can significantly increase profit.  A planer/molder opens many more avenues for selling kiln dried lumber.

I already have or have access to log and lumber handling equipment, I'd still try to get by with it until other equipment has reached pay back. 

[jcrumley]

Thanks for all the replies and wisdom so far. :P. I'm not jumping into anything crazy.  I really don't have a plan other than the woodworking I already do.  I just want a retirement business to supplement my income.  I have 20 acres of mostly pine and oak to play with.  I'll probably do most everything at home. 

The guys here passing on information is priceless.   Thanks again 

[78NHTFY]

....such a good start to a new thread!
jcrumley--a key issue for you is # of hours in a day: to get everything in place so you can walk to your own lumberyard and pick out what you need and build that next piece of furniture to generate income is going to be a challenge.  But if I can do it anyone can. (Was a language major in college: allows me to cuss fluently, and I do daily, in 4 languages every time I screw up).  I love building--furniture, kitchens, new buildings.  Almost never use any wood but my own.  As a result, I build much less than I'd like and most of it for my own projects, so no income (but get use and enjoyment).  But I love logging and saw-milling as well and have that down to what works for me.  My 2 ¢'s--what hat do you want to wear and for how long.  In other words, decide on being a hobby mill or a professional one and get what equipment you can to get the operation working smoothly to supply yourself with the lumber you require, and still have the energy to put on your woodworking hat.  GAB makes a good point with building a kiln, although I think the best fine furniture is made with air-dried lumber, so you could sticker/air dry and just wait a year or two....  doc henderson's comments are right on and worth several read thru's...
jimbarry--nice pics, equipment and explanations!  Agree that a manual mill with all kinds of support equipment is the way to go.
mike_belben--what tormenting?  I haven't wisen'd up much at all, so am actually pretty content... ;D.
All the best, Rob

[ladylake]

 I think he said he was going to do custom sawing, for that I'd get a hyd mill.  Steve

[Magicman]

My original intent was to saw and sell so I built my startup business profile around that.  I quickly found out that I needed log/lumber handling equipment and all that I had was an old 1530 John Deere without a FEL.  I would need inventory and I did not have the required shed(s) nor the place to build one except 46 miles away at my farm property.

Actually all of what I did not have worked in my best interest because before the first year ended I had migrated to providing only portable custom sawing.  No inventory, storage, log/material handling, waste disposal, buying logs, nor selling anything.

Thankfully the used sawmill that I bought was an LT40 SuperHydraulic.  I could not imagine having anything less than a full sized hydraulic sawmill regardless of the manufacturer/brand.  If I bought a new one today the only thing different would be that it would absolutely have a wide head.

That was 19 years ago and I am completing my best sawing/income year ever.  Being age 77, I have no idea how many more years that I can continue sawing but I guess that I will know when I get there.

[jimbarry]

All great advice given here. We have the WM sharpener and setter, and its paid for itself in a year. We also have a Nyle L200M kiln unit in a 10x20 bldg. Its currently working to pay itself off. We use it primarily for drying firewood and kindling that we sell. With those two items, that puts the budget over 100K, but I figure if they are paying for themselves, its still within budget.



 

[Andries]

. . .  I'm not jumping into anything crazy.  I really don't have a plan other than the woodworking I already do.  I just want a retirement business to supplement my income.  I have 20 acres of mostly pine and oak to play with.  I'll probably do most everything at home.  . . .

There we go - now we've got some details in that post to work with.
.
You've touched a nerve ending here jcrumley.
All of us, at some point or other, have said to ourselves, "Man! This isn't working out for me." or "Well shoot, THAT was a learning day."
You're asking us to sum up those learning days. . . the shoulda, coulda, woulda details.
.
So here goes, the view from 2000' up:
You love woodworking, that's a great start. You know what good lumber should be.
You'll be retired in not too many years, you'll have your days to work on this new line of work, and maybe not have to dip into the grocery money.  ;)
You've got twenty acres of pine and oak to work with.  
.
There are (pick one) lumberjacks, sawyers, lumber yards and woodworkers.
Any one of these categories could easily demolish a $100 k. start up budget.
These steps also make up a $profit pyramid, each one makes a % of the final retail price tag.
Get some networking going: ground crew for a tree service, off bearing a sawmill for other folks, or stacking a kiln or feeding a moulder/planer is invaluable. Figure out the $ markets, see which operations are the best fit for what you'd like to spend time doing. Spend a bit on safety equipment to keep you healthy while doing all that.
You say you're not willing to jump into anything crazy, always good.
Look at used equipment and don't be allergic to changing that up. Everybody on the forum has gone through changes of location, equipment, end products, etc. etc. Learn the basic mechanics of the equipment that you invest in. Also, learn when to call in a hired gun specialist to deal with something that goes beyond your own orbit. Maintenance costs less than repairs
.
In your neck of the woods, @GAB has struck a chord by raising the wood drying business. I suspect there's lot of guys out there with all sorts of sawmills.
Your side hustle could be lumber that has gone from the logger, to the mill, and now to you for drying. See the ads at the top of this page. You'd want some space, 1 or 2 acres, with a pole barn and an electrical drop. The vacuum kilns (@Just Right @Stephen1  @boonesyard) would give you a niche for specialty markets, or a container kiln (@YellowHammer) gives you more through put. There's a technical side to drying lumber which involves both science and chicken sacrifice. Voodoo stuff ;) that forum doctors can help you through. Material handling is the key here and hydraulics are your friends. Look at the galleries put up by the Forum members and you'll see how I avoid a bad back.  ;D You could buy a mill once the drying biz has passed the 'paid for' stage, and do some woodlot improvements on your twenty acres. Kilns take some time to dry, time that you can use to do the other things you enjoy. Milling and drying your own trees would fill the need to see the tree go to final form in your woodworking shop.
.
The best advice of all: start soon (before you retire!)
Good luck and let us know how you progress.

[mike_belben]

Number 1.  You have an income now that is taxed at a certain rate.  Now is the time to "start" the business so that the depreciation of the startup equipment gives you a BIG tax refund by lowering your taxable income.   Later on when you have 50k of expenses for 4k of sawing income is the WRONG time to start being a good accountant.  You wont get back anything from it.



Im gonna throw this out there.  Get a crewcab diesel dually [$15-20k] a tracked skidsteer, [15-25] a dual tandem gooseneck [10] and a sawmill that goes on the deck of the gooseneck and sits low.  Put the buckets and grapples on the side.  Put the skid steer on back straddling the mill bed.   You saw right on the trailer.  Parbuckle big logs up onto the bed with steel ramps on the rub rail.  No problem. 


Now youre a one of a kind portable sawyer.. Youve brought your saw and your logging machine.  Seek out jobs for people with more money than sense. Hourly charge and make it a big one.  


Youll get jobs of all sorts.. dirtwork, clearing, sawing, whatever.  The only way i could make money in trees was if i got them for free, and ponds was the only way that ever happened.  


A benefit of this is you leave them the mess.  You leave them the chore of stacking and slab piles.  You absolve yourself of the stickering and warpage and other drying issues.  Youve sold every minute of your time with no rejected pieces that were a lot of time and labor to produce.  No one coming to your gate at 7pm on sunday for wood.  And youve got a perfect spinoff introduction machine for other types of work if you so choose.   Lot clearing, fence or barn jobs, decks and decorative structures etc.  People who cant do the work but have an attachment to mom or dads tree out back.  


And.. These 4 pieces of equipment will never truly lose value.  The entire world is thirsty for diesel crew cabs [that you may want to sleep in if the job is far] goosenecks, skid steers and sawmills.  Theyre the 70 chevelle of today. An almost risk free investment when you consider that uncle same gives you an income tax rebate to buy them, the customer pays you to deplete them and then the market keeps paying more and more dollars for them.  All of my iron is worth more than i paid by 30-100%


Beware a CDL may be required for this rig depending on your state. But im sure glad i got that behind me. Its just one more sharp tool.


That truck n trailer will also allow you to pull a small dozer or haul logs in or out.  Other machines.  Deliver sheds and so forth.   If you setup at home you are limited to your market and its bearings.  If youre mobile you can target the richies 70 miles away. 

[Walnut Beast]

Good thinking Mike 👍