The Forestry Forum

I am interested in turing some of the crotches and curly stuff I have collected into veneer on a bandmill...I am a circle mill guy and always have run one...soooo I am wondering bout cutting this stuff thin and laminating it to plywood for my new house....who has done this am I thinking right about the process....need some pointers...
Don

I had one customer who made arched laminated gazeebo trusses.  I would cut his pressure treated stock on my 1/8 marks and he planed it then laminated them together.  that could work for you.

I think you will have a problem keeping the thin stuff from cracking while it dries. It might work cutting it in into thicker pcs and then resawing thin after it is dry.

So Kevin what ya think cut it 5/4 then air/kiln dry then cut it 1/8''?

I think that would work out the best as far as cutting down on the degrade as it dried.

I dont know how one could sticker 1/8" stuff anyway ;D

Now sawing dried white oak is no fun either. ;D

There is a way.

Perhaps 20 years ago I remember a Fine WoodWorking mag. article on how to handle burl veneers.   The concept will probably apply to your White Oak puzzle.

Burl veneers can be brittle and normally dry with curls and ripples.  In other words, they are a pain, even when you buy from a supplier "ready to use".   The remedy is to dampen, then press between cardboard.  Sometimes a glycerin solution is used to dampen the veneer pieces.

How can this apply?   Cut the White Oak green - 1/8" thick or less.  Pack, rather than sticker, the slices between box cardboard with weighted plywood on top.   (An alternative is to clamp the veneer stack between two plywood pieces.)  Have an extra "set" of cardboard sheets on hand.   Since box cardboard is corrugated and has air channels, you can blow air thru the stack.   Also, you can restack occasionally,  changing out your damp cardboard for fresh pieces.   When the damp ones dry out,  cycle the stack again, etc.
With each change, the cardboard will draw out a little more moisture.
Phil L.   P.S.  Cardboard:  Appliance stores and recyclers.

I've often wanted to try this,  now it depends on what kind of burl you have  (wet fresh no rot or major pockets, just swirled wood,wet like fresh lumber  OR dried dusty  open pocketed burl )

Crotch is usually wet/fresh (did I type that?),,so what ever method you work out should have prety consistant results (as compaired to a dry crotch) :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D

And I'm assuming short length,, it's for Cab doors or shorter piece work?

If you have a burl that's wet/fresh I would use polyurethane glue or resorcinol glue and press it (vac. bag is real quick),,air dry it,,kiln dry it (or kiln like conditions..it's thin),,sand and go!

If you have a burl that's dry,,poly glue would fill the voids and may not look good or require a lot of picking out,,  resorcinol could be died black and would just look black to the viewer.

I have worked veneers,,and unless you can get the wood down to .030" you won't be able to use veneer techniques on the thicker wood.  
And I'm no fan of trying to force wood to stay in one place, but you never know it may work.

and I would cut as thin as possible on the mill,, do the glue job right then, don't let it dry at all.

Of course I don't know if the resorcinol would hold wet,wet wood?
JIM
 
TOM/anybody
I installed the ispell but right mouse choice's of spell check and i spell options make the scirpt error page,,,continue runnings scripts y/n ,, and no i spell.
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Does anyone know how the high production veneer process works?  I'm thinking they cut it wet but I'm just guessing.   ;D

Ian

Solidwoods, yer about 2 years over due on a browser update.

Appreciate responses guys...
I am still uncertain as to the "ACCEPTED...or STANDARD" method of doin this...not all my material is burled..some is just white oak with rays from quarter sawing....I really would not like to cut up a bunch to practice then see it split or pull itself apart....thanks
Don

Actually I was thinking that www.woodweb.com would have some information on what to do with 1/8" veneer.  Check it out.

Ian

Hey Buzz,

Believe you me,  none of us have the heavy duty equipment necessary to pursue the "standard" and "accepted" methods.
Here are the primary two methods:

1.     Rotary cut.

2.     Sliced.

Both use knives, not bands to cut.  The knives, which are as long as the log is, stay still.  The log, or portion of a log, moves.  Both use steam chambers to specially prepare the logs, which are cut while wet and hot.  Both use steam-heated press dryers to force out water, or use steam-heated successive rollers to force-dry the veneers under pressure.

Method #1 uses the entire log on a lathe and spins it against a massive stationary cutter knive with a "nose bar"   The nose is adjustable for different woods.  The knife moves toward the log at an adjustable rate per revolution and "peels" the log. There is no loss of wood to sawdust.  The combination of the nose pressure ahead of the knife and the very sharp knife permits cutting, without what are called "knife checks".  Low grade or binder veneers permit knife checks.
Method #2 uses a stationary knife also, but the log is swung thru an arc, each pass slicing a sheet off the portion of the log which is in the fixture.  Other types slice straight with a nose bar and knife.  

The facilities and equipment cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Phil L.

Thank for the input Phil excellent info on the drying process!(and everyone!)

I do understand industrial veneer production on a rudementary  :P level and have been involved in professional carpentry for a good spell...(multiple decades :D)
I really am asking more specifically.... How small shops I>E cabinet and furnture makers of the finer stuff.....
use band mills to produce veneer which from what I have researched is a fairly accepted and common practice, cutting as thin as 1/16th.
I am just completely ignorant and out of my element as to how to do it...
I own a sawmill and run it full time (for a living ;)) and cut some grade lumber along with the cross ties and cants made for pallet mills.... and other construction materials....I am a pigs ear in search of a silk purse!
Don

I get your drift, Buzz.

I have a Hitachi resaw, which uses a 75mm wide, stellite tipped blade for such projects, but, when I do a cost analysis, ...  well
                         ya' gotta wunder: :P
     In the realm of commercial realities, can you come out?

I have dealt with reveneering and other tedious projects for 27 years.   Once, I re-veneered most of an entire player upright piano with "hammer veneering" techniques.   ???Other, less-involved veneer projects are commonly part of high-end piano restoration.

Option 1.     When considering the inefficiencies of the small shop methods required, and the fact that you have a sawmill,  is veneer's total cost cheaper than solid wood for you?  (Been there; done that.)
Option 2.     When considering the high efficiencies of the industry, are you better off to buy veneer, if you want to do veneer?

Much of my wood-related work is done to prove it can be done and to prove to myself that I can do it.  Other portions are just for the fun of it.  Then there comes that portion which has to make me a living.  My wife will never understand more than one of these categories! :D This project falls somewhere amongst 'em, but the choice is yours. ;)
Phil L.   P.S.    :P The Egyptians did excellent veneer work
                            with hammer veneer techniques and hide glue
                             or fish glue over five thousand years ago.
                           After all this, if you are still wanting to do
                          time travel,  I can point you to resources.
Back to WERK!? :'( :'( :'( :'( :-[ :'( :'( :'(

(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/maynard.jpg) WORK ! ? ! ?

Heyyyyyy Tom....He looks just like Gilligan!!@! ;)

PHil...I am just a non conformist and usually my rule is,"If I cant do it it cant be done" :D in other words I think I have to be able, (at least once ) to prove how "easy" it is to build my own _______ (fill in the blank.)
 Or could be that it is the perfect combination of stubborness and cheapness :o.......now about those Egyptians if they could do it with thier foreign made tools.......where are the links to time travel!
Don

Y'all may STILL think I'm nutz, but, ever hear of Gorilla Glue??? The stuff is WATER soluble, meaning, you CAN glue up wet wood. 8) 8)
  It's 'spensive though. If I could find some Cypress burl or Crotch, heyyyyy, I GOT a Cypress crotch, in the junk pile. ::) :o :o :o  Gotta salvage THAT sucker. Stand by for an update in a couple of weeks.
  Uhhhhh, somebody remind me that I gotta remember to get that crotch outta the junk pile. ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D

Harold first "Monkey" blades ...now "Gorrilla" Glue???
What next ::) ::) ???
Gator chips ;D ;D :D ;)
 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Hey guys!

If any body out there has glued up wet wood and has been able to observe that glued panel for a while (say ten years or so),  I would like to know about the product and the technique.  I have an idea about maximizing quartersawn faces, which would depend upon being able to glue-up wet surfaces.
Phil L.
       P.S.  Piano restorers have to think in terms of
                at least decades.  This week I worked on
                   one piano manufactured 1893, and another
                      from 1884!  Gotta make 'em last!

Gorilla glue is Polyurethane Glue (titebond make one also)  you won't have any luck edge gluing wet veneer  ,, shrinkage movement will ruin it.  Dry it first (at least air dry 20%).
JIM

Thanks for the glue info Jim. At least I'm not completely nutz, eh???  I was thinkin of adding that when the MC gets low enough, the Gorilla glue would hold, NOT right after being sawn??? The stuff DOES hold very well, though. ;D :D

Hey Don (Buzz-Sawyer),

I have that phrase down for wifie dearest, when she gets home:
    She will ROLL !     You and I must be similar in this.
                  
I'll be surprised, if you haven't already been exposed to Tage Frid.  (Pronounced Tay  Frid, as in "day" and "bid")  His books covering this include:
   Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking,  Taunton Press.

Go to :      http://taunton.com     and search for Tage Frid, etc.

Time travel at its best !

Phil L.
    

Thanks for the lead Phil...
My dad tells me I was born this way.... ??? ??? ;D

I guess the upside is that I enjoy learning :P and building 8)....and doin it for free or cheap!
I attended a recent auction and bought hydraulic pumps , and valves, motors and power units for .50 and a dollar a piece....
Don

Harold
I could imagine you there bidding me up to $1.50 for the hydraulic 12volt pump....sure you could use one for that next contraption...right??
Don

Almost Buzz. I'm a goin with 24 volts next time ;D :D :D :D

FL D your sys needs amps not volts.
Volt changes are mostly for equip match or wire size amp limits.  :-* :-*  (are these little guy's blow'in kisses?)
Happy Holidays
JIM

Jim, I figgered that the raise in voltage would allow for less amperage to equal the same amout of HP???  746 watts= 1 HP, no matter what the voltage to get there, correct ???

  Applies to both A/C and D/C, ??? ???

  Marine industry (BIG boats) use 24 and 36 volts to achieve this for the basic operating system ???

  Not wanting to argue, just checkin to see if I been taught wrong for 45 years ??? ;D ;D

Hey Harold ...I was just thinkin bout your story with the c.o in Vietnam...I recon you could rig and blue print an underground utility system...just wouldnt want to be the boss!
Don

Fla.,
With low voltage system, voltage drops are the big problem. A half volt here or there and soon nothing will work. If you can get 24V equipment, that is the way to go, everything is smaller and operates better. Remember the days of 6 volt systems in cars and what a problem it was to keep lights and charging system working.

Buzz, that's kinda what I had over there. Some of the wires were stomped into the mud, till they disappeared. I also strung some up on poles and even used shell canisters welded together, to make poles. Used steel fence posts for X arms ::) ::)

   I tried to always keep 'em guessin. Kept them from harrassing me  ;) ;D :D :D :D

  Even had the "classic" I can't touch the freezer without getting shocked. ::) ::)  I would pull the plug and reverse it and they were happy,  for a day or 3. Then I get the same call, and repeat the process ::) ::) ::)

   I even stood in a puddle of water one time and fished around for a chafed wire and pulled it up and taped it right there in the water :o :o :o

  What else was they goin to do to me, send me home ??? ???  ::) ::) ;D :D :D :D :D :D

What size cannon...... like 88mm utility home-mizer light poles?
About comming home...My buddy Jerry was over ther and (just to let you know) saw some tough times there ...like when he was drivin along with his pal in a truck and a 7.62 hit his buddy in the neck real hard ...... he said he remembered so much blood in the cab that he poured it out of his own boots..
Latter on .when he came home from Nam,  he visited our local watering hole, ..... a bunch of hippies started calling him a babby killer and a pig....Jerry said he had a bayonet in his boot razor sharp (probably since he was still in kill or be killed mode ...right outta da bush)
Any way, he said he was pretty sure he coulda killed em (he could of !! ) but he just let em beat him ,one had a bat....He said he didnt have it in him to even fight back ...now Jerry is and was no kinda wimp what so ever....I asked him why and he said since he had seen to much killin already....He didnt have it in him any more to kill

this story has affected my life more than I can say
Don

Buzz, I spent 20 days in the field. Don'T talk about it and saw too much damage by Napalm. Still in Touch with Jerry,?, say Hi from me, one to another :(

I havent seen Jerry for a while...he likes to tinker and build stuff like me ...I ought to stop by and see what he is building!

Any one done any veneering projects lately?

Buzz, its simple!  Just like I said when you were here, and Harold echoed that.  Gorilla Glue!  It needs moisture as the catalist.  Glue it up green and see what happens.  You will be surprised.

I have cut 1/16th sheets on my mill with a new blade.  If your going to the shootout come early and we will give it a try before we go.