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Im in another pickle with Big Bob

Started by Bruno of NH, July 20, 2021, 04:51:58 PM

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Bruno of NH

My skid steer operator Tim came to me this morning. 
Big Bob wouldn't start the 3 studs that hold the starter on all broke off.
We got one out.
I'm going to try and weld a nut on one and try to remove it. The other one is broke off much deeper. I ordered some left handed drill bits and will try that.
How do I find replacement studs ? The part that goes in the housing looks course thread the outer part fine.
Any help or hints would be appreciated. 
Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

HemlockKing

Take one into a machine shop not a hard job to gauge the threads and remake the studs
A1

newoodguy78


mike_belben

A thread gauge and caliper is how a machine shop would determine what they are.  Fastenal probably tell what they are for free and sell you replacement if they have it.

Download a "tap drill index" pdf and that will give you info on whats standard.  Mcmaster or MSC probably have those style studs.  Or maybe silver-seal products.  Like ocean seal not roofing seal.  Maybe goodson's, jegs, summit.. even napa.


Honestly the starter has through holes. It isnt gonna care too much if you just get bolts threaded in, as long as there is some type of dowel or register so it stays where it belongs.  If the studs were holding and locating then yeah you might need the correct ones. 

Are they blind holes or through holes?  Can you get a nut on the back of a bolt or does it have to thread into the block?  


The deep one you may try drilling a pretty big hole.  Then taper grind a sacrificial allen socket and hit the stud with a torch.  Immediately after heat smash the allen socket into the hole so it broaches it own flutes and then hit it the impact to back it out or drive it thru if thats an option.  The bigger the hole the better but try not to go sideways into the threads.  If you do break into the threads oh well.  That will help the bolt collapse and free up.  On a milling machine i drill them until the only thing left is a helicoil and peel them out with a pick like curly wire.
Praise The Lord

cutterboy

Good luck Bruno. I hate those kinds of problems.
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

Satamax

Hello Bruno. 

IIRC big bob has a perkins? 

IIRC, the hexagonal head of the bolts on mine are 14mm. 

And i can't remember which thread it is. Either M10 or M12

My opinion, forget the studs,  put bolt screws in there. 

Mind you, i wonder why the starter's three studs broke at the same time. 

HTH. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Don P

IIRC repeated starter grinding by a previous employee, metal fatigue. There is a good chance 2 have been broken and the third finally let go. Check the starter and flywheel gears while its out to make sure they didn't get munched...With 'chinery its always sumthin.

mudfarmer

Right on Don. Bob has had a few starter replacement jobs recently? If the studs were torqued to or near stretch point this was bound to happen. Sorry to hear it Bruno

Resonator

I would maybe upgrade to harder bolts, see what the torque spec. is, and check back after so many hours to see if their still tight. And hope with a good operator it doesn't happen again.
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

GRANITEstateMP

any luck Bruno?  I've found that some manifold bolts are coarse on one side and fine on the other, is that how your starter was set up?
Hakki Pilke 1x37
Kubota M6040
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2015 GMC 3500HD SRW
2016 Polaris 450HO
2016 Polaris 570
SureTrac 12ft Dump Trailer

Bruno of NH

Quote from: GRANITEstateMP on July 22, 2021, 06:09:21 PM
any luck Bruno?  I've found that some manifold bolts are coarse on one side and fine on the other, is that how your starter was set up?
Yes  course into the housing fine thread holds on the starter 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Bruno of NH

Today I finally had time to work on Big Bob.
I didn't know it but my helper tried removing one of the bolts. He didn't do well.
I had to drill it out and ordered a helicoil kit for it.
The other one was broke off a 1/2 in . Took the broken part drilled a hole in the center used what thread were left and put it in. The drilled it with a left handed drill bit it came right out like butter.
I wish he left the other one alone. Oh well 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Bruno of NH

I'm also thinking about buying the new engine my BIL has for this machine .
Replacing all the hoses .
There is lots to like about this machine,  no electronics and no epa stuff. Very simple
It's a great mill yard machine lifts all I need,loads semi trucks and easy on fuel.
Put some new windows in it and build a door . Add a heater.
I will have way less money in it for what it can lift .
Quote from: Bruno of NH on August 08, 2021, 02:03:12 PM
Today I finally had time to work on Big Bob.
I didn't know it but my helper tried removing one of the bolts. He didn't do well.
I had to drill it out and ordered a helicoil kit for it.
The other one was broke off a 1/2 in . Took the broken part drilled a hole in the center used what thread were left and put it in. The drilled it with a left handed drill bit it came right out like butter.
I wish he left the other one alone. Oh well

 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

mike_belben

If mine was bigger.  Not newer or faster, just bigger, it would make it a lot easier to justify time and money on.

I would rather have a broken 1080 than a broken 742. 
Praise The Lord

Bruno of NH

Update on Big Bob 
The starter is gone again.
No rebuilding this time.
Got a new one on order.
Going to buy a new injection pump. I'm going to try and do it myself. 
The skid steer I been using an 873 blew the bottom main hose . Let me tell you no fun to get out or put back in.
20" long hose and fitting $310
Hope to have the 873 back running today.
Big Bob has much more room to work on stuff , the main hoses are under the cab the tilts forward.
Any advice on the injection pump ?
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

mike_belben

Dont be surprised if you need to cut and weld some special gooseneck wreches to get at buried bolts.  Youd better be familiar with the timing procedure before you start.  A slew of wobble sockets, extensions and fine drive ratcheting wrenches and stuff will always make this type of work easier and are paid for by not paying the mechanic $90/hr to use his.  

Figure out what engine and pump you have then check youtube university to figure out what youre up against.  

Room to work is pretty valuable IMO.  Id love to have a big bob
Praise The Lord

Bruno of NH

I know I will have to pull the radiator because it's held in with 4 bolts behind the timing cover. And 3 on the block
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Bruno of NH

The 873 needs the same one on top of the one we just replaced. Couldn't tell that one was leaking .
More fun  :D
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Gary_C

Just for your information, broken starter studs and housings are normally caused by engaging the starter while the engine is already running and/or running the starter to assist an engine that is not running fast enough at starting. 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

treemuncher

Quote from: Bruno of NH on September 15, 2021, 12:42:30 PM
Update on Big Bob
The starter is gone again.
No rebuilding this time.
Got a new one on order.
Going to buy a new injection pump. I'm going to try and do it myself.
The skid steer I been using an 873 blew the bottom main hose . Let me tell you no fun to get out or put back in.
20" long hose and fitting $310
Hope to have the 873 back running today.
Big Bob has much more room to work on stuff , the main hoses are under the cab the tilts forward.
Any advice on the injection pump ?
I wish a lot of my hoses were that cheap! 3 years ago, 3 hoses @ 8' long each....wife comes home with credit card receipt and I'm thinking maybe $1,200 - $1,500. WRONG. $2,500+  You never get to know the pain until you own it and want to keep it running.
Advice on the injection pump

  • do it at your shop, not in the field. 
  • Pressure wash it until it is clean BEFORE you begin. Keep washing as you disassemble as needed to keep things clean. Steam is great, hot water is good.
  • While you have the radiator out, get it 100% see through clean and straighten any bent fins to restore cooling efficiency. Sometimes this can take days.
  • If you have never tried Schaeffer's Citrol, now is the time. Don't waste your time with the aerosol cans, get the gallons and mix in a pump up sprayer. Yes, it is expensive but *DanG does it work well. Likely the best degreaser I've ever tried.
  • Get or make the timing pin(s) needed for your engine. Easy to make on a metal lathe. Set the pin(s) before you pull or loosen the pump. Mark your timing with a prick punch for reference.
  • Be meticulously clean, surgically clean, for best results with that pump.
  • Read the books, watch the videos and do it all again a couple of times before actually doing the change out. Think of it as studying for the test and the results will be better.

I do lots of repairs in the field but when it comes to major expensive repairs, I only do them at the shop. Especially stuff that calls for cleanliness. No chance for some wanker to mess something up while it's left alone on a jobsite in pieces if I take it to the shop. 
TreeMuncher.com  Where only the chosen remain standing

Southside

Just by chance I discovered that putting degreaser into a silver fire extinguisher and adding air pressure will get the degreaser to foam like there is no tomorrow. Gets into more crevices and sticks to the machine really well. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Satamax

Bruno.

There is a cover opposite the pump, with 4 screws, iirc something like 3/8 or 1/2 head.

Then under there the gear, with 3 screws, pretty sure it's 3/8, or 10mm.  There is a metal piece behind,kind of a wafer,  with a half moon key. If you're lucky, the replacement pump will come with it. And then you have no timing to do. Put the mark on the block and the mark on the pump in line, and it works straight out of the box. Well, on my crane, it was pretty easy, as i have plenty of room there, unlike the starter!
I have done two on a turbo AT4.236 on my crane. And one on a non turbo A4.236 which i sold.

It looks pretty much like this. My timing cover was different.

Injector pump replacement. - YouTube

Hope this helps.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

Here, just bellow the oil feed tube.

I miss playing with engines! But not the engines on my equipment! 

Perkins A4.236 #2 - YouTube
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Peter Drouin

Doing a pump job for the first time is a gamble. I had a diesel mechanic come in and do mine on the 1044.
If you are off on the timing a little it will not run right. And you will be into it again. I cut lumber, I let the mechanic do his thing and I do mine. It cost $$$$ but if it's not right the mechanic will have to come back to fix it on his time.

For me, a bobcat at a sawmill is a waste of time. A lull with the reach of 30' in front of you can be priceless, lift 10,0000 lb and put it where you want.


 

 
 
Imo, I do wish you the best of luck,
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Peter Drouin

PS.Don't buy a cat anything. :D

 
This is what junk looks like going down the road, :-X
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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