The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service



Author Topic: Timbco 415ex??  (Read 4200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10970
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2021, 12:14:11 PM »
Roll the dice.
Thats it.  


If you cant or wont repair iron you better not buy any.  


My ideal score is a machine that was maintained all along and the owner just got tired of maintaining and is selling it broke, at the broke price, with lots of recent parts.  I cant afford the working price is todays free money bubble market world.    Its especially ideal if i knew the machine to truly be running rather than a stranger.  


Guys say if you can afford a new one you can afford an old one. Hey in 1979 that was some great advice.  Will it still be in 2029 when even the dealers are struggling to figure out the new technology's new problems?  



The corporate side of the trucking industry has decided brand new trucks are only a good bet when traded at about 1/4 of a typical bigrig life cycle for another new one. The steep payment is calculated into operating so the product has to be able to cover that or else yoire just borrowing to have a job. Big trucking companies are debt leveraged and many go belly up at every downturn.


Imo an overwhelming majority of the independant owner op mom n pop trucking outfits have made the best of inhouse rebuilding their good old simple reliable pre-emissions trucks and have survived many market cycles without the debt leveraging.  The problem theyre facing is the good drivers are retired or running their own rigs now, that whole generation is fading away, and all are failing to find good hired drivers.   

The schools are turning out drivers not suitable for 500+ hp old trucks with splitters to tear up, and theyre too whiny to live without APUs and TVs and standup bunks. so labor is whats forcing the adoption of newer trucks, not superior technology.  Many times ive heard 'im done whenever this truck is.'


As the emissions and electronics get further and further advanced that new machine is less and less reliable and repairable by fewer and fewer people at higher and higher cost.  So i posit that the cost/benefit curve of the buy new option is fading every year. With every "industry advancement" the dealers advertise.   
Isaiah 63:10

Offline stavebuyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
  • Location: KY
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2021, 12:56:08 PM »
I agree with you about the newer stuff Mike, but the problem is that we have arrived at the time that the "old" is getting so old that is no longer a reliable option either.

I think you almost have to base your business on that equipment you bought is obsolete the day the factory warranty expires. If you can't afford to trade and upgrade to new whenever that day comes your business model is going to fail. The 1979 advice still rings true. I don't like it but you can no longer farm with an H or 8N, log full time with a JD440A, or run a dirt work business with a D4C.

To succeed with the antiques you need uncommon mechanical skill and the drive to work long days 7 days/week to overcome the repairs and limited functionality in order to accumulate some sweat equity into newer stuff and keep on doubling down and hope to cash out before a bad cycle crushes you.


Offline chevytaHOE5674

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3728
  • Location: Ontonagon Mi
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2021, 01:28:10 PM »
Buddy of mine ran an old timbco/rolly 2 setup. He worked 7 days a week 12+ hours a day between wrenching, sourcing parts, welding, fabricating, running for parts, and then cutting wood. Over 3 years of that he said he averaged 4~5 loads of wood a week. 

Late last year he got fed up borrowed a pile of money and bought a refurbished Ponsse with large payments to go with. Now he works 5 days a week 10 hours a day and cuts 15~20+ loads a week. He goes home at night and enjoys other hobbies and goes fishing on the weekend.
He is fully aware that by the time he gets some equity in the machine it will be time for it to his the road.

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10970
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2021, 01:46:31 PM »
Right.  Its danged if ya do danged if ya dont and roll the dice on the rest.  No guarantees any direction you choose
Isaiah 63:10

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8716
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2021, 05:23:29 PM »
Mike I would agree with you on repair/refurbish most of the time, but not on CTL processors. If you're going to play the CTL game get something low hour. Rather than buy an old one, you may as well hire on as a mobile mechanic for someone, that's all you will be doing anyways. At least that way you'll get paid for it. A buddy of mine just parked his '03 Ponsse Ergo, it is probably approaching 40K hours. It was producing wood the day it got parked, and as soon as it came to a stop he was selling parts off of it. Because the value of a harvester with that many hours is so low, he figured he'd hang on to the engine and main pumps that were replaced in the last 2000 hours, and sell off the parts that aren't interchangeable with his new machine. I know several guys with high hour machines like that. The only reason they can make it is they have "grown old together" in a manner of speaking, and they know them inside out and all of the machines quirks. If you tried jumping in one of those as your first harvester, I just don't think you're going to make it. If you you can't afford at least a $250K dollar harvester, you can't afford a harvester at all is how I look at it.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Firewoodjoe

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Northern lower michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Im getting old
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2021, 07:22:42 PM »

Offline chevytaHOE5674

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3728
  • Location: Ontonagon Mi
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2021, 08:06:17 PM »
If you want a tracked carrier it would be worth a look assuming the hours are correct? 2000 hours in 19 years seems suspicious......

I'd much rather buy a machine right from the woods or field any day over something sitting on a lot.

Offline Firewoodjoe

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Northern lower michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Im getting old
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2021, 08:17:41 PM »
Thats why I had the 🙄 face. More like 22,000 hours. Most dangle heads and or rubber tire machines are junk around here. Everyone tells me to get a fabtek head due to simplicity and toughness for hardwood and a track machine. Only guys running rubber tired keep new machines. Thats a 2010 head and I see no welds in the pictures at least. And yes says working daily. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8716
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2021, 08:26:25 PM »
The meter says 20,135 hours.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Firewoodjoe

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Northern lower michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Im getting old
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2021, 08:32:21 PM »
🤦‍♂️ I just glanced at that when I seen they put 2000 in the hour description. But I figured anyways. 

Offline chevytaHOE5674

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3728
  • Location: Ontonagon Mi
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2021, 08:42:04 PM »
20k hours makes more sense.

Funny there isn't a Fabtek head left running that i can think of UP here. The ones that used to be around were all busted up, welded, and destroyed cutting hardwood all the time.

The one I ran couldn't handle our hardwood at all compared to a Rolly 2 or Ponsse dangle head.

Offline Firewoodjoe

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Northern lower michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Im getting old
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2021, 08:51:37 PM »
Yes the H8s and waratahs are the go to now. But a lot of 501 cats still out there! But all the smaller guys still run fabtek. From old Deere conversion machines up to the cat. 

Offline Firewoodjoe

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Northern lower michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Im getting old
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2021, 08:59:46 PM »
I think the reason is dealer support. Thats what we have here. A few Barkos and timberpros further north. Ive only heard of one Rolly head. They hated it.

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10970
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2021, 09:23:46 PM »
... The only reason they can make it is they have "grown old together" in a manner of speaking, and they know them inside out and all of the machines quirks. If you tried jumping in one of those as your first harvester, I just don't think you're going to make it. If you you can't afford at least a $250K dollar harvester, you can't afford a harvester at all is how I look at it.
I think we are beating around different sides of the same bush. If the machine price and maintenance price and the fuel price and labor price continually rise, and the wood price really still averages out to what its been for decades once this bubble runs its course.. Then the gap between what it costs and what it pays keeps getting wider.  


If those lines continue to diverge, (like trucking for the same rates as 1990 but in $200k trucks instead of $100k) at some point new CTL equipment will only be economically viable to entrants who already have the money and do not need to run the machine every day to pay for it.


So what i am saying is just like the growing old with a brand new 6NZ powered 379 ship has sailed, maybe that era is coming into its twilight for little guys growing old with new CTL equipment too.  


We always discuss CTL within the confines of go new or go old.  But never going not at all.  I am certain there are loggers out there who will be run aground by either side of the CTL coin.  The ones with shallow pockets, spotty cashflow, shoddy wood, poor market connections, no trucking and lack of mechanical skills should just stay away from CTL.  


No one ever says dont do it. Someone ought to remind once in a while that its a viable option,  and perhaps the best one in some circumstances.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline chevytaHOE5674

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3728
  • Location: Ontonagon Mi
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2021, 09:40:20 PM »
The difference in CTL equipment and the OTR trucks in your example Mike is that say a 2000 OTR truck is basic and parts are available both OEM and aftermarket. If you have a vin number you can build a "new" truck from a catalog.

A piece of 2000 CTL is full of proprietary  antiquated, outdated, and obsolete computers and sensors. So unless you are able and want to re engineer the entire computer system you maybe SOL keeping it running. There isn't a large enough market for an aftermarket to grow into supporting the old machines.

For reference Peterbilt produced 42,000 trucks in 2019 and Freightliner over 100,000. Ponsse has build just over 15,000 machines since 1971. There's a reason the OTR truck market has a huge parts and service support.

Offline Firewoodjoe

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Northern lower michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • Im getting old
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2021, 09:46:25 PM »
I CTL now. But not mechanically. Thats where the harvester comes in. And a conventional crew of new equipment isnt much cheaper in the long run. Actually more money in some cases. The problem with mechanical ctl is the harvester is a much more complex machine than anything else. So condition definitely comes into play. But what I struggle with is if its tight and right (good condition) then its good as low hour machine. Except for the possible obsolete parts. A older machine with a fabtek head is just like a slasher. Engine pumps, saw and house bearing. Many and I mean many of those old slashers swing a lot of wood with 30-40,000 hours. Thats where I start to look for the reason people say they are a headache if high hour. Everything has the same basic components. Yet a old harvester gets a bad wrap. Not saying anyone is wrong at all.

Im pretty sure a older track machine has a mechanical engine and a fabtek head has one encoder wheel to measure lengths. Thats it. 

Offline Southside

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9304
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
    • White Oak Meadows
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2021, 10:03:20 PM »
I can see both sides of the coin, but like Mike said - the coin doesn't go very far these days, and for the little guy it sure seems like you are just financing your occupation.  It's getting harder and harder to find any help, let alone someone you can put into a $500K machine.  It's the same in every industry - today a new JD X Series combine will set you back $1.3 million - all you so can harvest $8.00 beans....
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10970
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2021, 11:02:01 PM »
I type out CTL just to save myself some typing.  What i mean is a harvester with a processor head and the onboard computer measuring systems. 


I came to a point in cylinder heads where i was charging and getting good money and backed up pretty far.  Came to a valve seat bottleneck. When i priced a brand new CNC seat and guide machine fully tooled and delivered, the math looked like another decade of slaving to pay it off.  And if it croaked, being in hot water.  I did not have the money and did not know if i could make the money to pay for it.  Id be "passing the bill to see whats inside" as nancy would say.  Jumping out of the plane to see if the parachute worked.  Pulling the trigger to figure out if the gun was loaded.  These are all suicide. 

I made the decision to start weaning out of that business since i could not possibly train help.. Soon as you train a guy they just open up shop across town. 


Scaling back freed me up to manufacture something else that came along and was extremely profitable for 8 years and then a good sale price on the whole business at the end.  I had a good exit from a bad business. 

I know its not forestry but thats the basis that im reasoning from.  If bought cash and you get hurt you only lose the machine.  But collateralized debt booboos can leave a man homeless. Atleast as an employee all you can lose is your job.  You cant walk away from the noose if you pledge a home to get into it. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10970
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2021, 11:04:14 PM »
- today a new JD X Series combine will set you back $1.3 million - all you so can harvest $8.00 beans....
How many hours on the machine when you pay that off at $8 a bushel?  And how many hours are left in it to pay you for the lost opportunity cost of the years it ate all the proceeds?  


If the answer to part 2 is "not many" then its smarter to run someone elses machine, punch out at 5 and pocket every check. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline chevytaHOE5674

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3728
  • Location: Ontonagon Mi
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Timbco 415ex??
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2021, 11:53:54 PM »
Slasher live a pretty "easy" life sitting on the landing swinging wood all day. No mud, rocks, trees smashing on top of it, trees are all cut and limbed so they are easy to move, etc.

A CTL machine removing 4 to 6" hardwood limbs by nothing but brute ramming force is a lot of stress on steel. The frame, boom, pins, bushings, cylinders, etc take an incredible amount of load everytime you smack into a limb. 


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Issues with Valmet 415EX with a Risley slingshot head.

Started by lblack79 on Forestry and Logging

9 Replies
1189 Views
Last post May 09, 2015, 05:41:12 AM
by bushmechanic
xx
Timbco

Started by timberjack 450 on Forestry and Logging

15 Replies
8149 Views
Last post October 29, 2019, 08:25:25 AM
by Rolley ll 415
question
Timbco 445

Started by TimberJoe on Forestry and Logging

65 Replies
3811 Views
Last post January 19, 2019, 03:48:52 PM
by TimberJoe
xx
looking for someone to show me how to run a timbco

Started by timberjack97 on Forestry and Logging

8 Replies
2543 Views
Last post June 14, 2012, 08:19:43 PM
by timberjack97
 


Powered by EzPortal