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Author Topic: Sappi paper  (Read 2796 times)

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Offline Maine logger88

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Sappi paper
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:43:57 PM »
Is in jeopardy the state dep and our governor want to take out a dam where sappi gets all there water from. Removal of the dam will drop water levels to 4 ft which isn’t enough reservoir to run the mill. They want the dam gone for Atlantic salmon to be able to go upstream. The owner of the dam is willing to put in a fish ladder which the claim is will be 96 percent effective but the state won’t settle for any less than 99 percent which is impossible. The state is in for a fight there are lawsuits going on hopefully the dam stays. I don’t understand why they would like to kill thousands of jobs for a few dam fish. That mill is by far the biggest in the state it’s loss would be devastating
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Offline Southside

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2021, 08:26:58 PM »
It's been going on since Angus King and John Baldacci decided to make the state into a tourist economy. Look at all the mills from Enfield north that have disappeared over the past 20 years. Look at the poultry industry and dairy industry, gone. The replacement was call center jobs for what 5 years?

Rails to trails. Make for great sledding, earning a living - not so much.

It's a lot of why we left. Fighting the tide.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2021, 09:16:44 PM »
seems theres a new one of these stories every week or two. 
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2021, 06:05:10 PM »
I read an article about this.
99% only means 2 more fish a year. It's not only bad for Maine pulp from New Hampshire goes there as well.
I like clean living , but where is this stuff going to end.
Everyone can't work at low pay food service jobs .
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Offline sprucebunny

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2021, 07:59:27 PM »
Let's see...so the state picks up the tab to destroy an industry that pays taxes and provides jobs because fishing lisences are more lucrative ???  

I'll bet there are more places to catch salmon than there are paper mills.
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Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2021, 08:31:54 PM »
I bought that Hood up in the Kingdom and the guy started talking about this and how it's going to impact them there. Every couple miles I drove I saw iron for sale along the road, going to get worse. 

Offline Southside

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2021, 09:25:24 PM »
Even better Sprucebunny - the fishing license revenue does not go to the general fund to offset any other lost taxes - it goes right to Fish and Game to enforce the fact you need a fishing license to not keep the fish that you caught because you didn't need to go to work since the State closed down the industry you worked in and instead you are collecting unemployment which was paid by your previous employer before the State closed them down and is now instead paid by the general fund which is short of the tax revenue that your previous employer contributed.  Oh - and don't keep that Atlantic Salmon, not allowed to do that.  

Makes sense.....
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Offline peakbagger

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Re: Sappi pape
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2021, 09:40:12 PM »
Caution contrary and cynical view - Actually the Atlantic salmon is listed under the endangered species act. Not a lot of flexibility once a species is listed. There are couple of remnant runs left in Maine and that is it. The runs have been on life support for 20 years. In the last few years there were some international fishing agreements signed that have given them a better chance on surviving to return to the Maine rivers but without free passage and spawning grounds they have no where to breed.  I remember similar dire consequence predicted for the Sappi Westbrook Mill about 20 years ago when there was fish passage required at the Westbrook mill. Eventually they needed to do it and it got done (no salmon run so they only needed to pass anadromous fish). So how much is posturing, how much is economics? My guess is impossible translates to expensive to deal with. If the current mill staff cant bluff it, corporate will find someone who can?   

The scary part is that the pulp and paper business is up and down (mostly down)and sometimes a company uses external events to justify already made decisions. Coated paper has been in the dumps for years with major market oversupply, the savior for that market was grease free papers but the big ingredient for grease free is or was PFAS, Expera the former IP mill in Jay also has bet its future on grease free specialties, last thing I knew Nine Dragons is still thinking on where to go. I think market pulp is or was doing well of late but its cyclical.  Sappi long ago cashed out their maine lands for a bundle and the long term supply contracts are probably long gone. They are the only big paper company that has not dumped their remaining mill assets to hedge funds and bottom feeders and hopefully its not the time to do so if they are given justification. They are competing with similar vintage mills that were bought for pennies on the dollar selling the same products. 

Offline Maine logger88

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2021, 05:46:22 PM »
I get that Atlantic salmon are endangered but it’s not worth shutting down a entire industry to maybe or maybe not improve numbers by 1 or 2 fish a year. Not to mention the fact that landlocked salmon are basically the same fish and there are plenty of those. Also I agree on the paper being up and down but sappi seems to be doing pretty well they just put a massive amount of money into the mill I wouldn’t think they would be giving up on it anytime soon. Hopefully it all works out and they keep going I’d like to do this another 10 or 15 years before I try something else lol
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Offline quilbilly

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2021, 06:21:22 PM »
Dams are spendy to take out and salmon take a long time to come back after they are. Elwha dam just got taken out. $340mil or something like that. If the difference for the cutoff is a handful of fish then that's just dumb. Also look up salmon cannon. I know people in fisheries and they say the hype is real and they work better than ladders. 

If you want expensive wait till they finally win and take out the snake river dams. Billion dollar projects there. 
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Offline dgdrls

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2021, 08:33:31 PM »
Businesses and conservationists sparring over Kennebec River dam relicensing

The underlying story is Shawmut Dam,  Its a Hydro station under Federal relicensing.  Having been involved with licensing in the past
the process requires a dam owner to get a Federal License, however you cannot get that license without a State DEP water quality (401) certificate first.
All the dams on the Kennebec are under fire.    You can bet US Fish and Wildlife is likely leading the process for the State.  I know they do here in NY.

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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2021, 09:19:52 PM »
Atlantic salmon is a big deal and has been for a long time. Back in the '80's I would go up to New Brunswick to fly fish for them. Millions where spent in the effort to save or restore them in Maine and on the Connecticut river system. Most of this effort met failure. It can't be 100 per cent your interests, there should be compromise especially when the restoration results have not worked in the past.

Offline Southside

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2021, 10:28:55 PM »
I can remember eating Atlantic Salmon in the '90s - perfectly legal too, they would have a numbered tag through the mouth similar to a deer tag.  I think the season limit was 5, but it's been a long time and I didn't catch it.  
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Offline peakbagger

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2021, 09:03:01 AM »
Also I agree on the paper being up and down but sappi seems to be doing pretty well they just put a massive amount of money into the mill I wouldn’t think they would be giving up on it anytime soon. Hopefully it all works out and they keep going I’d like to do this another 10 or 15 years before I try something else lol
Sappi spent a "massive" amount of money back in the eighties to install a new recovery boiler at the Westbrook mill and few years later they shut the pulp mill down for a year and replaced it with the Rapid Displacement Heating (RDH) pulping process. The process worked as claimed but they reportedly cut corners on an auxiliary system and the mill smelled far worse when it started up than previously to the point where buildings adjacent to the site including the Westbrook police station had to be evacuated a few times due to high levels of hazardous gases in the air. They tried to make it right but shut the pulp mill down for good about a year later. My guess in todays dollars is that they spent far more than Skowhegan did recently. They kept a book grade papermachine and the deep embossing grade machine mostly because they had free stream and cheap power from the adjacent biomass power plant and dam system. More importantly by keeping something running they delayed the start of the clock ticking on an inevitable super fund listing if they ever shut the place down entirely. Last thing I knew they only are running one machine to keep that special deep embossed coated paper. 
Not the first time a mill owner spends a lot of bucks on a facility and then a few years later get rid of it to any buyer that will buy it. Inexon in Millinocket (#10PM), Bowater in East Millinocket (Recycled Fiber facility) are two that come to mind. I hope it doesn't happen to the folks working there, but years of watching the Maine paper industry its obvious that decisions have almost always been made by out of town owners. The Warren family in Westbrook was the exception but they eventually faded out and Sappi bought what was left. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2021, 09:07:46 AM »
you are a wealth of historic information PB, it is always a pleasure to read these posts and understand it deeper than what you get from some assignment journalist puking out an article from a few phone calls to the front office. 
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Offline Tacotodd

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2021, 09:11:31 AM »
Reminds me of you Mike!
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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2021, 09:59:48 AM »
Smurfit Stone spent a pile of money upgrading our mill only to close it down and go bankrupt a few short years later. All of money they spent on upgrades got cut up for hauled away for scrap.

Offline wisconsitom

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2021, 11:37:00 AM »
Leave it to Wisconsin mills to have been focused on glossy mag. stock also.  Why we always have to do the most toxic (lots of bleaching, lots of coating materials) stuff here grates on my mind.  Now of course, magazines are fading away.  I'm sure though that whatever resurgence of paper-making does happen here, it too will involve the worst chemicals/processes there are.  That's the Wisconsin way!  Mix a water-rich state with lots of toxic effluent.
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Offline peakbagger

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2021, 02:26:20 PM »
Fraser spent money at the Berlin NH pulp mill on a new Combined Heat and Power plant, a condensate stripping system and a new brown stock screening system after their corporate owners, Brookfield, bought the bankrupt mill in Berlin and Gorham and stripped the hydro plants off them and sold what was left to Fraser for $1. Less than 3 years later Fraser shut down the pulping operation in Berlin and sold it to be scrapped. There were brand new spares still in the crates being hauled off as scrap. They kept the papermill for a bit longer until Fraser declared bankruptcy. Brookfield had stripped Fraser clean of assets, tens of thousands of acres of land in Maine and large Crowns lease in Canada,  and buried it in debt before going letting Fraser go bankrupt. The US workers got their pensions protected by PBGC (a US backstop for pensions) but the retired folks in Canada lost theirs as the court paid off the senior debtors first before the pensioners. Their biggest senior debtor was Brookfield.  Brookfield also had their hands in the Millinocket mess as they already owned the hydros but some of them were two cycle power and was useless for selling on the grid. They the mills running running long enough to convert most if not all the dams to regular power and built a power line to get it on the grid.  Fraser ran it but Brookfield called the shots. Once they got that taken care of they effectively gave what was left to the Katahdin Paper guys owned by Cates Street that then proceeded to rip off the state. 

Brookfield did get burnt in the short term when they overpaid Rumford for the Rumford hydros. 

You will see that Brookfield also is the owner of the controversial dams on the Kennebec. Whenever I see them with their fingers in a  project I know they are strictly in it for the buck. 

Offline Southside

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2021, 02:55:08 PM »
Brookfield are scum. Delt with them when they bought the old JP Levesque mill in Ashland. Can't say enough bad about that group. 
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Offline snowstorm

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2021, 03:44:24 PM »
Just got a call from someone that is on top of this. He had been on the phone all afternoon  he says the governor is committed to having the dam say in place. Natural resources council and trout unlimited want it and others removed. I would not worry 

Offline Maine logger88

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2021, 05:19:17 PM »
Thats good to hear snowstorm! 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2021, 10:21:22 PM »
Brookfield is a crook with an agenda 21 implementation program.  Theyre the 1% class of climate warriors who are strip mining old industry to death on purpose because it does not suit their ideology. 

 
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Offline Southside

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2021, 11:12:57 PM »
I am actually surprised that Mills would take that position, but happy to hear it.  
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Offline mudfarmer

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2021, 11:01:22 AM »
Yes Brookfield and Erie Blvd are bottom feeding scum of the earth losers.

Here in NNY they own the rivers now. What they have pulled several times now is suing the towns that they own hydro dams in, saying that the tax assessments are too high. The town's can't afford the same caliber of lawyers so they end up settling the suits and the townspeople pick up the difference. This is a repeating cycle and it is against forum rules to use the words I want in this post. They should be ashamed of themselves but probably sleep very well on mattresses made of money.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2021, 01:32:53 PM »
Brookfield is a crook with an agenda 21 implementation program.  Theyre the 1% class of climate warriors who are strip mining old industry to death on purpose because it does not suit their ideology.

 
Hmmm, the ideology is Brookfield is the $.  That's about it.  Housing, pipelines, windmills, etc etc.  They don't give a flip.  They'll cut up main woodlands and sell off as HBU, strip small towns of revenues, hold slum apartments in baltimore, scam taxpayers on dams or windmills,etc etc.  They manage 700 billion in assets so this dam is so far down the list of things they care about that decisions are being made by a junior analysts
They truly just don't care, if the spreadsheet works that's what they do.  They expect 12-15% return on equity.   5-9% dividends.  99 billion in market cap.  So if they touch anything in forestry it is because the parts are worth more than the whole because forestry does not return these numbers.  Just typical PE folks  where there is a guy in NYC (one of barge's clients  :D) or Toronto that created a model to buy old papermills in Maine and Canada.  They'll work that model until it does not work.  By work I mean until it can't pay a 12% return on equity and deliver a very strong dividend.  They'll borrow huge sums against an asset to pay dividends and then bankrupt it.  That works for them.  They are Canadian BTW so remember that when they leave the canadian mill workers with no pensions.  Summary: they have nothing to do with any UN sustainable development goals.  
Prayers to all the folks needing the Sappi mill to stay open.  I hope they find a way to get the salmon around the dam and for the fish to become commonplace again.  In the long term the fish are probably going to be the future.  

Liking Walnut

Offline WDH

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2021, 02:07:50 PM »
The type of wood fiber available to a mill determines what product they can make.  Southern pine fibers are long and can be weaved into a highly absorptive mat to make absorptive products like baby diapers, adult diapers, and products that need strength like linerboard ( the two layer cardboard with the waffle like layer sandwiched between those two layers of Kraft paper) for shipping materials like cardboard and Amazon Prime boxes, etc.  

Hardwood fibers are short and cannot compete in absorption and strength.  They excell in making a very fine mat for products like paper, copy paper, writing paper, etc.  Well guess what, southern yellow pine does not grow in the frigid, glaciated North.  What does?  Hardwoods do. So if you are up in the Cold, Desolate, Glaciated North where it snows and where winter lasts for 6 months, you have to pulp hardwood primarily for paper products.  

Guess what happened to paper?  Who uses much paper anymore except to wipe your backside where the cold North sun don’t shine?  Computer Technology, The Internet, The Cloud, and the Gazillion Megabyte Hard Drive have left poor old paper in the dust snow.  The Northern Pulp Industry is struggling with the “buggy whip” syndrome.  Who buys buggy whips anymore after Henry Ford came along?  So the Northern Pulp Paper Industry is going to have to battle product obsolescence and to survive, will have to develop new and innovative products that use the short hardwood fiber to compete in the world.

Another hurdle is even if you can use the short hardwood fiber, they can grow eucalyptus to 8” to 10” in diameter and 90 feet tall in 7 years in South America.  I have seen it personally in Brazil.  The Marketplace is a World Marketplace, particularly in Forestry.  Right now, I am not buying stock in Northern Paper Mills. 

Here is a pic that I took in 2003 in Brazil of a 7 year old eucalyptus plantation being harvested near San Paulo, Brazil.  



 
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Offline wisconsitom

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2021, 03:04:16 PM »
Lots of red pine gets pulped in these parts also, not just hardwoods.  In all other respects, I agree with your statements.

Similar dynamics in play all across the forest products spectrum.  I belong to the group Larch Research.com and here is yet another once-promising  initiative-to get a really great softwood tree type in greater general use-but then along comes China or Indonesia or Brazil, able to liquidate the tropical forest, often below cost, to grab market share.  Why invest time and toil into developing great trees for New Hampshire or Wisconsin or Ontario or......you get my point, some overseas supplier is able to ship product here cheaper than we can cut and mill it ourselves.
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Offline barbender

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2021, 03:27:56 PM »
Spruce is the go to for long fiber length up here. We cut a lot of black spruce in the swamps in the winter,  and it almost all goes for pulp. Unfortunately, the growth rate is such that we harvest 8" dbh "timber" on a 75 year rotation😬

Gary, that hybrid eucalyptus is just otherworldly in its growth rate. I was amaze by the growth rate of timber in Georgia, it pales in comparison. 
Too many irons in the fire

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2021, 05:35:27 PM »
@NW

122 year old asset company with 7 subsidiaries, 150k employees and one thousand investment advisors hires mark carney in october 2020. To be the #2 of the entire company behind CEO bruce flatt. Boy thats starting at the top, he is pretty influential id say.  

Mark is vice chair of the entire parent organization.  He is known more for being a central banker than an ecowarrior, but in brookfields own words:

Quote
He is a long-time and well-known advocate for sustainability, specifically with regard to the management and reduction of climate risks, and is currently the United Nations Special Envoy for Climate Action and Finance.
THE one and only climate guru at the UN.  Thats like the throne of ecowarriordom.


He has also been one of the worlds biggest pushers of carbon exchange markets.  Do we think he will be any less of an eco warrior behind the helm of brookfield than he is at the UN or at the carbon credit task force he created? Thatd be a pretty foolish expectation.. that he would fail to use his influence to steer brookfield in a personally fulfilling way, from the tippity top of the organization.

The very first thing on their parent company home page is "getting to net zero."

Not netting a lot of zeros, getting carbon emissions to net zero. Top of the page. The blurbs on great returns come further down.

What is Marks title.. Vice Chairman and "head of transition investing."

Transition from what?   That smokey old diesel and coal powered world of old industries we grew up with like paper mills with lines of trucks waiting to be unloaded by a 988 or letourneau or whatever.. To the new era of solar farms and battery storage and all that net zero emissions stuff.

What ecowarrior wouldnt close a papermill that they bought with other peoples money after stripping more than they paid out of it..  Seriously ?
Isaiah 63:10

Offline snowstorm

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2021, 07:07:53 PM »
I don’t think sappi is going anywhere. They have done a lot of building on since they bought it from Scott paper. And then there is Weyerhaeuser that owns a million ac. With a contract to supply them wood. Lots of lawyers be be on the job if it’s needed. And if mills came out for it Paul would win by a landslide. Hopefully he dose anyway.      It appears someone doesn’t know we have lots of softwood in the great white north. And if the southern pine is so good why dose so much of our spruce 2x4 and pine boards get trucked to the south?.

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2021, 08:55:03 PM »
I'm no expert. 
I have been to very remote Maine with lots of land.
I seen nothing but softwood for miles and miles.
Northern New Hampshire as well mostly softwood .
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Offline donbj

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2021, 12:27:26 AM »
They are Canadian BTW so remember that when they leave the canadian mill workers with no pensions.


Not sure why the Canadian comment is here, this goes far beyond us polite Canucks
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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2021, 05:31:51 AM »
Way up this way, spruce is king, in lumber and pulp. Hardwood is a 'weed' that has been gradually replaced. We have one hardwood pulp mill making rayon for Asia. On the pre-commercial thinning end of things, that hardwood mill is not organized at all or know which end is up. If you get a map, chances are someone else has already thinned it. :D
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2021, 05:47:14 AM »
Gary, that hybrid eucalyptus is just otherworldly in its growth rate. I was amaze by the growth rate of timber in Georgia, it pales in comparison.
I'm not sure why I got credit for that picture but it was actually posted by the guy that is still fighting the northern red pine vs. southern yellow pine wars. I think he is a bit heat addled but he still doesn't like us poor folks that live in:

 
 the frigid, glaciated North.  What does?  Hardwoods do. So if you are up in the Cold, Desolate, Glaciated North where it snows and where winter lasts for 6 months, you have to pulp hardwood primarily for paper products.  

:D :D

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2021, 07:30:00 AM »
@NW

122 year old asset company with 7 subsidiaries, 150k employees and one thousand investment advisors hires mark carney in october 2020. To be the #2 of the entire company behind CEO bruce flatt. Boy thats starting at the top, he is pretty influential id say.  

Mark is vice chair of the entire parent organization.  He is known more for being a central banker than an ecowarrior, but in brookfields own words:

Quote
He is a long-time and well-known advocate for sustainability, specifically with regard to the management and reduction of climate risks, and is currently the United Nations Special Envoy for Climate Action and Finance.
THE one and only climate guru at the UN.  Thats like the throne of ecowarriordom.


He has also been one of the worlds biggest pushers of carbon exchange markets.  Do we think he will be any less of an eco warrior behind the helm of brookfield than he is at the UN or at the carbon credit task force he created? Thatd be a pretty foolish expectation.. that he would fail to use his influence to steer brookfield in a personally fulfilling way, from the tippity top of the organization.

The very first thing on their parent company home page is "getting to net zero."

Not netting a lot of zeros, getting carbon emissions to net zero. Top of the page. The blurbs on great returns come further down.

What is Marks title.. Vice Chairman and "head of transition investing."

Transition from what?   That smokey old diesel and coal powered world of old industries we grew up with like paper mills with lines of trucks waiting to be unloaded by a 988 or letourneau or whatever.. To the new era of solar farms and battery storage and all that net zero emissions stuff.

What ecowarrior wouldnt close a papermill that they bought with other peoples money after stripping more than they paid out of it..  Seriously ?
Mike that's 1) giving way too much credit to him.  2) giving far too little to the UN.  UN is a huge organization controlled by no one really- all very complicated consensus approach, the organization picked someone to be the voice.  He didn't really have much choice, it is good for business and bad for business if he says no.  Brookfield is making big plays for offshore wind, carbon deals, etc.  At the same time they own gas pipelines and are buying more.  They own oil and gas properties.   It is just about the $.  
The world is transitioning and we've got another thread for that but Brookfield only owns things to make profit.  Papermills anywhere don't make much profit, not in Sweeden or Switzerland or South Africa.  That's why a South African company, South African Pulp and Paper (SAPPI) owns the mill in Maine.  If it was a great business US pulp and paper companies would still own it but our capital centers are brutal and so bad businesses are sussed out.  Same issue in Brazil actually.  Even with great growth rates (and much of Brazil can't do Euc like WDH's picture but it is still good) thats just supply, the business itself is not good because as WDH stressed ...the world is moving on.  Boxs, toliet paper, some other packaging stuff, a few magazines at checkout counters.  Sappi has closed many mills around the world, hope this one stays but who knows.   I'd guess the world needs to shed quite a few more mills before it becomes a decent business again.  
Snowstorm is pretty close with guys up there and if he says it is staying open than that is a good bet.  SAPPI is a good company from everything I've heard.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2021, 08:07:23 AM »
So youre saying brookfield is in it to make a huge profit, at the same time that youre saying there isnt much profit in papermills?  

Then why is brookfield buying into them?  Clearly, operating the mills does not deliver the profit levels they demand.


I will stand by my claim.  They are buying in not to operate, but to stripmine them for profit and close them for ideological, ecological satisfaction.  In my opinion a brookfield investment is a pulp mill's eventual kiss of death no matter what rosy vision BS they claim while buying in.  
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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2021, 08:14:57 AM »
Quote
2) giving far too little to the UN.  UN is a huge organization controlled by no one really- all very complicated consensus approach, the organization picked someone to be the voice.
Im giving huge credit to both of them.


I see the UN as the iligitimate government of planet earth.  And Carney as the UN's chosen figurehead for guerilla climate combat through vehicles like brookfield with unlimited funds, posing as regular businesses out to make a profit.  America loves hearing profit.  


The problem is brookfield is the 1% profiting for themselves by killing off the industries that employ lowly knuckle draggers like me and my kind.  I work on iron.  The kind they are phasing out, not in.  

I set my face against them.  
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2021, 08:35:20 AM »
I see I (“someone” referenced earlier by Snowstorm in a seemingly disparaging way) struck a few nerves.  My comments were about paper as a pulp product which has seen a significant change in demand as a result of technological change.  Many Papermills were located in the Northern half of the Northern Hemisphere.  Hardwood was the primary fiber component in that product.  

I was wrong in saying that Northern pulp was primarily hardwood in my focus to comment on what has happened to the Paper Business, and left out all the wonderful, and as I stand heat addledly corrected, magnificent softwoods.  In doing that I apparently insulted every spruce, fir, red pine, lodgepole pine, jack pine, and every other softwood growing in the frigid, glaciated, grits abhorring, Northern frozen parts, and to those trees, I deeply apologize.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2021, 07:27:51 PM »
yes the business has been mostly going downhill. Brookfield makes huge profits by doing as was discussed by @peakbagger .  They buy a dam that has a guaranteed profit, they fight to dramatically lower tax assessments, they will also cut all the human capital out of the upkeep, they'll then borrow a bunch of money against the asset and pay a giant dividend.  Then you have a dam that is loaded to the gills with debt that goes bankrupt and forces some local entity to take it on and pay of debts.  Some version of that over and over.  You just have only to abandon morality to understand how they make money off a single tiny dam.  That's just the dam.  Mills they get tax breaks, they can sell off paper machines, they borrow against it to the hilt, twist state govt to invest, pay brookfield execs as management and on an on.  Paying brookfield managers on the books of the asset is a favorite.  One manager getting salary from 2-3 assets all of which are getting bent over so to speak.  

Terrible business.  The only thing like it that I know of is Satellite providers and steel mills.  These are 3 assets that you see the same story over and over and over.  Bad businesses that can pay dividends and have assets to mortgage.  

Not all of Brookfields investments are "bad" deals for someone.  They own run of the mill apartments all over, commercial real estate, the gas pipelines, solar is a new one for them.  However, all those assets are going to be highly leveraged and all the cash stripped out and no re-investments.  Some like a new gas pipeline can go a long time with little additional investment, or a solar farm.  Others like commercial real estate can start to slide.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2021, 11:32:57 PM »
Yeah thats plain disgusting.  Theyre exactly the crowd who benefits from money printing.  I bet theyre right near the front of the line for liqidity injections. 
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2021, 02:53:43 AM »

I was wrong in saying that Northern pulp was primarily hardwood in my focus to comment on what has happened to the Paper Business, and left out all the wonderful, and as I stand heat addledly corrected, magnificent softwoods.  In doing that I apparently insulted every spruce, fir, red pine, lodgepole pine, jack pine, and every other softwood growing in the frigid, glaciated, grits abhorring, Northern frozen parts, and to those trees, I deeply apologize.
We forgive you! :) That line of perpetual refrigeration keeps everyone in their rightful place. It thins out the populous as the snow and ice gets thicker with ogres and dragons on the loose. Sounds of frost bitten timbers cry out as the sun rises and another day of harvesting the mighty spruce commences in hopes the equipment holds together long enough to make them payments. :D
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2021, 04:52:02 AM »

 Sounds of frost bitten timbers cry out as the sun rises and another day of harvesting the mighty spruce commences in hopes the equipment holds together long enough to make them payments. :D
It's not only the operators that get heat addled in the south but the machines get equally heat addled. It's never good for us frigid, glaciated, grits abhorring Northerners to buy one of the previously southern residing machines because the fuel filters will be full of water turning to ice and the seals will all be toasted.

That line of perpetual refrigeration must be respected.  

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2021, 05:01:02 AM »
That’s for sure :-[
Trying harder everyday.

Offline peakbagger

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2021, 04:27:42 PM »
BTW Brookfield bailed out Jared Kushner's big real estate near disaster Timeline on Jared Kushner, Qatar, 666 Fifth Avenue, and White House Policy

Brookfield bought out the former FPL hydros (former CMP hydros). They walked in, sacked half the staff of their engineer and operations group and told the remaining staff that they had better pick up the work from their former coworkers or they would become former. They pay their local managers well and hand them good benefits but they usually do not last long, lots of ex Brookfield folks out there.

 

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Sappi paper
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2021, 08:01:15 AM »
Yep that's Brookfield.  Just about as apolitical amoral as it gets.  
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