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Author Topic: Wood Burning Stoves Question  (Read 1181 times)

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Offline Daburner87

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Wood Burning Stoves Question
« on: September 15, 2021, 10:32:11 PM »
I have a question, and what better place to ask? 

I'm looking at getting a wood burning stove, and I want to place it in my house where the garage was renovated into a living room.  This living room is the one that gets the most use, this old house(1954) got some updates from the previous owner in the 80's.  So while renovating the main living room I was thinking of putting in a wood burning stove as the room is weirdly shaped with a 8" rise on the far side wall.  My plan was to use this bump out for the wood burning stove placement but the depth is only 22 inches.  Most wood burning stoves require a certain distance from the wall to prevent fires, and 22 inches isn't a big enough platform to put a stove with required distance from the back wall.   So I was curious what material would be good to sit on this 22" deep platform, that could extend out a few extra inches enough to place a stove on?  I was thinking of a single heavy natural stone to do the job.  Something I could get specifically cut to size to do the job.  It could be 2-6 inches thick, as long as it would be a good non combustible floor for the stove, and something that could withstand the heat without cracking.  Let me know what you think.

Added a picture showing Back Wall, 22" Depth bump out from back wall, regular floor height, and the stone on top idea.

 
Soon to be  owner of a HM130Max Woodlander XL

Offline Iwawoodwork

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2021, 11:22:24 PM »
Need to look up on line or call your county regarding code for stove from wall and stove pipe clearance, also some  home insurance does not like wood stoves but if all that is not an issue then a backing board/cement board set at least 1" air space from the wall with the stove 14-18" out from that. you could also build up a brick hearth the size you need.
There a few wood stoves certified for manufactured homes that can be closer to the wall but  not sure of the requirements.

Offline 21incher

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2021, 12:12:46 AM »
Most areas require a UL listed stove and inspection to get homeowners insurance coverage. My stove came with all the info needed to build a safe platform and the clearances required. The stove also comes with a R value requirement for the base that the building inspector will check. Some stoves are available with heat shields for reduced clearances that are also UL approved so the first thing is to check with your building department for a permit and any special local codes then select a stove for the actual clearances required for a safe installation. Most insurance companies will require a certificate of compliance issued at the final inspection to cover the stove serial number installed and inspected. My insurance company also sent out a independent inspector to take pictures and approve the installation as safe to insure.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 07:18:37 AM »
Manufacturer rules but also look up NFPA211 which is the code referenced rules for installation. There might also be a clearance issue to the side from your drawing.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2021, 08:04:11 AM »
with our stove and double wall pipe to the ceiling, we could be 10 inches from combustibles. looks easy enough to build up the floor to the distance you need.  all stoves come with instructions/recommendations and it is on a aluminum tag on most.  I would start with looking at stoves.  You can pour a little more bump out if needed.
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Offline snobdds

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2021, 11:14:44 AM »
 



At my cabin, I used a thick piece of sandstone that sits on top of cracked faced cement blocks.  I also had clearance issues as I did not want to take up a lot of space.  So I made a heat shield to go around the stove.  It works really well and does not get the surrounding areas hot.  You can see it from this shot. I have the proper clearances on the pipe, but I was a little tight on the body of the stove, hence the heat shield.  The insurance guy said everything was in spec.  

Excuse the unfinished photo and camo blanket on the wall.  The cabin was kinda echoey and I wanted that gone until I start the inside. 

Offline Daburner87

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 11:49:55 AM »
I should have added to my photo that right after the bump out is a radiator that goes across the length of the bump out which is 13 ft wide.  So with the stone I had in mind it would hover over the radiator.  I will go to a few fireplace stores this week and see what they say about it, and if there are any stoves better suited for my needs.   My wife rather make a built in with electric insert instead but I have so much firewood it would be silly to me not to make use of it.  And the real fireplace we have is on the other side of the house where no one hangs out so it gets no use.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 12:49:06 PM »
if the radiator is electric, should be able/easier to move.  I assume since this is a remodeled garage.  I did not see it in the drawing!   :) :) :)
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline jmur1

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 05:55:35 PM »
NFPA 211-pg 43-46 has some relevant notes.



 


 


 





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Offline Daburner87

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2021, 10:18:54 PM »
Nope, the radiator is copper pipes that span the entire width and go down into the basement on both ends. I didn't get to the fireplace store today, I should have.  I keep seeing these "Zero Clearance Wood Burning Stoves" but not really finding what I want when searching google.  Then I saw on the Drolet 1800 Escape I've been liking that it can be 9" off the wall if using correct materials so I can accomplish that no problem, but still need to figure a base.  

I never thought to even call the insurance company.  I've seen so many installs that are quite close to walls(closer than I would do) so I wonder just how they reinforce this as they are pretty easy to install for most DIY folks.  I pulled a few videos up on youtube where people are only 4 inches off the wall.  Not saying I would do that, just saying I don't see the fuss if you install everything else correctly.  That being said, does anyone have a copy of  NFPA 211?  It is hard for me to make out the images above.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2021, 10:32:43 PM »
you can click the three dots in the upper right hand corner of the screen, and click zoom as high as you want, or copy the image to your pictures and then print it.  I would not go closer than 10" unless you have non combustible wall covering.  you could put a brick or concrete front and span over the radiator and let it heat the thermal mass of masonry.  the stove could heat other areas of your house if the heat is absorbed via the radiator into the water and circulate to the rest of the house.   :)
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Online beenthere

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2021, 11:15:52 PM »
Quote
I never thought to even call the insurance company.  I've seen so many installs that are quite close to walls(closer than I would do) so I wonder just how they reinforce this as they are pretty easy to install for most DIY folks.

Yes, DIY folks can install without the insurance co. knowing about it. But the kicker is when your policy has a disclaimer for items not disclosed, such that a fire from any source will give the ins. co. an out for paying for damage.
Good to get the insurance co. to cover what is done. Not all insurance co.'s are the same.

As far as the radiator, I have cut the copper lines and re-soldered them to change their location in my baseboard runs. And have heated with a wood-fired boiler to heat the water going through the three-zone baseboard heating system for the past 40+ years.  Maybe an option here. 
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Offline 21incher

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2021, 11:23:03 PM »
Remember to size the woodstove correctly for the square feet you will use it to heat. An oversized stove burning low is not efficient and to small a stove will not be good either. A good stove shop will be a big help.  I also understand  there  are shortages of some common  stoves this year so options may be limited if the installation will be in the near future.  
Those  pics of the NFPA211 actually violate copyright laws and can get Jeff in trouble if permission to post them isn't included in the posting.
I got the best information and copies of what I needed from our code enforcement officer when the permit was issued.  It's  best to be friendly with  them and ask questions at that point so there aren't  problems  later. Definitely  talk with  your  insurance  company  because some don't  like underwriting for a woodstove.  Mine had no problem once a certificate of compliance was faxed to them and they inspected it. We love wood heat.
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Online beenthere

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 03:25:48 AM »
From NFPA

Quote
Virtually every building, process, service, design, and installation is affected by NFPAs 300+ codes and standards. Our codes and standards, all available for free online access, reflect changing industry needs and evolving technologies, supported by research and development, and practical experience.

So may not be a violation.  ??
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Offline Don P

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 06:17:54 AM »
Like the ICC codebooks it is available but is copyright so go carefully, I'd call a short excerpt fair use.

NFPA 211: Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel-Burning Appliances

With all the clearances being tossed around, and making me cringe, do note that unless specifically listed by the manufacturer no clearance reduction methods in the code will get you closer than 12" from a wall or 18" from a ceiling and its certainly best to have 6" or taller legs. 
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 09:53:05 AM »
the one in the house was installed by the dealer.  it has a 16 foot flue going up.  all the clearances are clearly stated on the products.  I installed an identical stove in my shop.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

Offline snobdds

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 10:37:51 AM »
Like the ICC codebooks it is available but is copyright so go carefully, I'd call a short excerpt fair use.

NFPA 211: Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel-Burning Appliances

With all the clearances being tossed around, and making me cringe, do note that unless specifically listed by the manufacturer no clearance reduction methods in the code will get you closer than 12" from a wall or 18" from a ceiling and its certainly best to have 6" or taller legs.
https://www.blazeking.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Broch_King_Princess-1.pdf
The installation material clearly states that if you use "clearance reduction devices" you can gain some significant space savings and still be complaint.  The ICC just says to refer to each individual manufacture.  My insurance guy, which is going by all codes because my cabin is in the middle of the national forest, used the blaze king numbers as his guide.  

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2021, 11:38:09 AM »
god, how did we ever make it without all these flippin rules and guidelines? 
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Offline Iwawoodwork

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2021, 02:08:54 PM »
Mike B a few houses caught on fire and /or burned down some times the family with it, so safety rules were developed,  I know that they are a pain in the tail feathers for many of us.

Offline Daburner87

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2021, 09:56:10 PM »
Like the ICC codebooks it is available but is copyright so go carefully, I'd call a short excerpt fair use.

NFPA 211: Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel-Burning Appliances

With all the clearances being tossed around, and making me cringe, do note that unless specifically listed by the manufacturer no clearance reduction methods in the code will get you closer than 12" from a wall or 18" from a ceiling and its certainly best to have 6" or taller legs.
https://www.blazeking.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Broch_King_Princess-1.pdf
The installation material clearly states that if you use "clearance reduction devices" you can gain some significant space savings and still be complaint.  The ICC just says to refer to each individual manufacture.  My insurance guy, which is going by all codes because my cabin is in the middle of the national forest, used the blaze king numbers as his guide.  
So 6" if using proper clearance reduction devices isn't too bad at all.  I would definitely do the heat shield, and double walled pipe for added security regardless.  Thanks for input everyone.
Soon to be  owner of a HM130Max Woodlander XL

Offline Don P

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2021, 10:10:53 PM »
With those models of that manufacturers stoves, not any other stove.
Notice the code minimum 18" pipe clearance in the footnotes, that'll likely move it out some.

Just between you me and the fencepost, 6" is nuts, I would never close my eyes.
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Offline samandothers

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2021, 09:54:39 PM »
I have two different stoves with different clearances.  They each have heat shields and ash pans these affect the clearance.  The manuals covered the clearances real well.  Your stove should have some information on how to gain the clearances.  Their are panels that you can get to go on top of subfloors to increase R value on top of which you can add tile or rock.  

Offline Sauna freak

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2021, 08:44:45 PM »
I would not place a natural stone with an overhang to gain wall clearance above the raised section. It will look stupid, and be difficult to clean and maintain and may present a strength issue and tripping hazard.  Rather, I would extend the raised section to meet the clearance requirements for the stove and form an attractive hearth area.  Depending on what material the riser is made of, any of conventional framing with stone, ceramic, masonry, or metal covering should suffice.

Consult your stove manual and local codes for specific materials and clearances needed, and save all diagrams and manuals.  If any construction materials are covered in the process, be sure to have "before" pictures to prove what you've enclosed with fire proof materials.

With most modern stoves having optional bottom shielding and built-in legs or risers, a non-combustible surface extending 16-24" from the stove front and to the back wall clearance is sufficient without additional insulation, but once again consult your installation specs and local coding to be sure.
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Offline Daburner87

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2021, 08:16:11 AM »
I've gone to a fireplace store and they said I need 18 inches in front of the stove on every stove for a non combustible base for the stove to sit on.  I just don't see any way possible to put it here that it not only looks good, but is up to code as well.  I really cannot remove the base radiator at this point to extend the ledge and make it work.  Unless there is a manufacturer that sells a wide stove with limited depth I don't see it possible.

This stove has very little clearance numbers.

Chesterfield 5 Wide Wood Burning Stoves & Multi-fuel Stoves

I can't seem to find it in America though. If you click on the "Tech Specs" it's clearances are in range. It states with a heat shield it can be 2 inches from the back wall... The wide unit only has a 14" depth. And the front space clearance shows 7-9 inches depending on how you install it. That is the closest thing I could find to fitting my situation. That would be 23-25 inches total. The problem is I can't find a place to order the stove from. I wonder if there are more Wide style stoves in America that I could look at with similar clearances.  Even still that is 2 inches off the back wall, which is kinda scary even if properly installed with heat shield, and all.
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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2021, 08:53:10 AM »
so is that a concrete floor,  can you split the radiator and put it on each side of the stove, on the face of the bump out.  that is a nice stove for watching the fire.  that radiator is conducting to the masonry mass anyway if it is that close.  or can it be located to the wall behind the stove.  you will be adding something in front.  I am not sure if the non combustible area in front of the stove, has to be at the same level as the floor it sits on.  in front is more for fallen embers than radiated heat from the stove i think.  good luck.  there has to be a way.
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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2021, 09:06:54 AM »
I've gone to a fireplace store and they said I need 18 inches in front of the stove on every stove for a non combustible base for the stove to sit on.  I just don't see any way possible to put it here that it not only looks good, but is up to code as well.  I really cannot remove the base radiator at this point to extend the ledge and make it work.  Unless there is a manufacturer that sells a wide stove with limited depth I don't see it possible.

This stove has very little clearance numbers.

Chesterfield 5 Wide Wood Burning Stoves & Multi-fuel Stoves

I can't seem to find it in America though. If you click on the "Tech Specs" it's clearances are in range. It states with a heat shield it can be 2 inches from the back wall... The wide unit only has a 14" depth. And the front space clearance shows 7-9 inches depending on how you install it. That is the closest thing I could find to fitting my situation. That would be 23-25 inches total. The problem is I can't find a place to order the stove from. I wonder if there are more Wide style stoves in America that I could look at with similar clearances.  Even still that is 2 inches off the back wall, which is kinda scary even if properly installed with heat shield, and all.
You've gotten some good and accurate advice here. You could go with your original idea but put 2 short columns made from the same natural material at the slab corners you propose. But as Don said, these clearances are important and trying to tighten up on them, even legally can bring 'poor results' at just the wrong time. Also that front incombustible clearance is important. Things can roll or fall out when you are loading. It only takes one time.
 I have attended many near structure fires with runaway stoves, chimney fires, and poor maintenance. I have also, sadly, worked more than a few full blown structure fires resulting from them. At the risk of sounding dark or morbid, it is interesting to enter a fully involved room and get a look at exactly what happened around that stove and how the fire spread. Usually this can't be done when the fire is extinguished because things have fallen apart or been ripped apart for overhaul of the fire. (This is why good fire investigators prefer to get inside a working fire in progress after initial knockdown rather than after extinguishment and overhaul. Better causal evidence.) 
 Anyway, based on this I can say clearances matter, radiant heat is amazing stuff. Yes, for normal operation and even most 'unusual events' the required clearances can be a little short, but when things go really wrong (picture a pipe joint failing from unseen rot) you will be happy to have as much clearance as possible. It might save your home or give just a few more minutes for initial mitigation. 
 I don't want to sound like doom and gloom here, I just want to shed a little light on the full impact of the decisions some folks make. Even concrete fails with enough heat especially when water hits it.
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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2021, 03:10:21 PM »
So is it an actual radiator or the copper supply and return piping for the radiator?  If the latter, it should be a simple matter to re-route with basic plumbing skills, or simply enclose in a small enclosure with an accessible panel (they always develop a leak in the worst possible location).

I believe the stove you linked above is only available to the European market.  Jotul used to have some similar models, but I'm not finding them on their site.  A dealer may still have old stock.  

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2021, 01:28:44 PM »
After talking to a buddy, I am thinking of removing the radiator to accommodate for the stove.  I have to check out the plumbing in the crawl space underneath, and see what it all entails.  I would hate to pass up the chance on getting a real stove and settling for an electric insert.
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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2021, 10:28:20 AM »
So after a bit more research, and a lot of brainstorming I bought a Drolet Escape 1800.  It should be here within three weeks.  I'll be first to admit it, this project is a bit out of my league.  I'm not exactly sure how to make this all work with the clearances, but I'm determined to do so.  I just can't settle for an electric insert, and as a wood guy I'm sure you all understand.  I have an abundance of wood, I see no reason to spend more money on electric.

Now the build is something I'm still unsure of.  I love the alcove designs, but space wise that's going to take a good chunk of the room up.   I love having a mantel too.  Building an alcove presents it's own challenges of course.   The stove only set me back $1466, compared to the fireplace shops I went to that's about a third of what they were asking so I have a bit extra cash to play with for the install.

If anyone has an alcove design, I would love to see a picture. 
Soon to be  owner of a HM130Max Woodlander XL

Offline doc henderson

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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2021, 01:46:46 PM »
I will try to find pictures, but I put an earth stove in an "alcove"  25 years ago.  the first question is what do you mean by alcove.  mine was above my shop in a second story of a barn shape with gambrel roof,  it had walk in sized dormers 3 down each of the long sides.  the center one that was over a ranch style structure, that looked like a milking shed off the side.  so it was a 8 foot wide dormer with  the floor 2 feet above the other floor of the room.  this was to clear the peak of the roof of the ranch structure.  what is on the other side of the wall in the pic/diagram.  any room to break through the wall and set the stove back.  you will have to look carefully at clearances and materials as the heat will be concentrated on all but one side.  I wired fans to ventilate the area, and I would consider plumbing in outside air.  This build was long ago and pics are on a rarely used older computer.  glad you found a stove.  can you post a link to the stove manual so we can see clearance diagrams.  If there is wasted space (doubt it) behind the wall, that would help resolve space issues in the room  If the wall remains, and there is a habitable space behind it, consider a fan to pull heat into the other room, so you do not run people out in the middle of a movie, and can share the heat in a power outage.  this is another good reason to diversify your heat sources. can you provide dimensions of the room.  if there are outside walls, you could build and alcove with access to the outside for wood loading via the outside, but obtainable to the inside.  I have lots of great ideas (in my mind) and just need to know how much money and how many years you want to spend! :D :D :D
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Re: Wood Burning Stoves Question
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2021, 06:22:59 PM »
Follow the instructions in the manual and you should be good to go. Should be a very enjoyable wood stove. 

http://files.drolet.ca/upload/documents/manuels/drolet/45228A_09-02-2012.pdf
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