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Kiln chamber design for Nyle L53

Started by blackhawk, September 12, 2022, 10:48:59 AM

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blackhawk

Hello All,

I'm in the planning stages of building a kiln chamber using the Nyle L53 dehumidification unit.  This is my first kiln of any sort.  I have went through the Nyle chamber build plans in their manual pretty thoroughly and they seem solid.  Here is a link to the plans, they start on page 4:   https://www.nyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/NDK-L53-Manual-2021-V4.2-qps-W-DATA-STICKERS.pdf

I plan to make mine 13 feet deep x 8 feet wide x 7 feet tall on the inside so that I can dry up to 12 foot lumber.  I will be pouring my slab with insulation underneath as shown in the plans.  

Does anyone have any tips or suggestions that aren't covered in the Nyle plans?  Maybe something that you wished you had done differently.

Other question is around adding heat lamps for sterilization.  Would I need to go with (4) 500 watt heat lamps to get up to those temps?  I am Virginia, so our Winters are not very extreme.  We rarely get into single digits (°F).  

Lucas 7-23 with slabber. Nyle L53 kiln. Shopbot CNC 48x96

doc henderson

You've Probably Never Seen A Concrete Pour Like This Before, Insulated Kiln Slab - YouTube

here is the slab video.  several others by Nathan or out of the woods.  lots of info here if you search, then ask specific questions.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

WDH

From back wall to front if only 8 feet deep is not enough.  You need about 2 feet from the doors to the wood, then about 2 feet from the wood to the dehumidification unit, and the another foot and a half to the back wall for the dehumidification unit to sit in.  If your lumber packs are 4 foot wide, then make the depth from back wall to front a minimum of 10 feet. 

If you want to dry 12 foot lumber, and you have trim added on the lumber, say 4 to six inches, you need a minimum of 6 inches on each side to clear the wall, so 13 feet inside dimension is not enough.  You will tear up the side walls if you are loading with a piece of equipment. 

7 feet high is not high enough if you plan to load the kiln with a tractor with front end loader or skid steer or forklift  as you will not be able to load the kiln to capacity.  The mast on the forks with hit the top of the kiln if you try to load more than one or two packs of lumber.  If you plan to load the kiln by hand THAT IS A VERY BAD PLAN.  You will quickly find out that it way too labor intensive to load and unload by hand and using a tractor with FEL or skidsteer with pallet forks, etc. is much much faster and efficient.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Larry

Still making tweaks on my L53 to find out what works so only have two comments.

I couldn't find a box I liked to house the control unit so I made one out of metal.  Pretty simple when I have a plasma and welder.  I thought I made it plenty big enough but found out later it should be insulated and have a light bulb for winter heat.  A thermostat for the light bulb is also nice.  When I got the insulation and light bulb installed I was out of room.  Now I want to put in a controller for halogen light bulbs for auxiliary heat....no room left.

The L53 pretty much maxes out a 20 amp circuit.  Run an additional circuit for auxiliary heat.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

blackhawk

WDH - I will be loading via a cart from the front.  The doors will be on the 8 feet wide end and I will push the loaded cart into the kiln.  It will be 13 feet deep on the inside, so if the 12' lumber is cut 12'6", it should still have room for it to fit.  This matches the Nyle plans that I linked.  The 7 feet height is to keep down the size of the kiln interior to have less volume to heat.  Since I won't have a tractor in there, 7 feet is enough to keep me from banging my head.

Larry - Good point on heating the control unit.  I saw that in the manual you were supposed to keep the control unit from freezing.  Kind of odd they designed it that way.  Tons of electronics are left out in the dead cold without problems, just look at all the electronics on cars these days.  Anyway, I'll make my box big enough for a light bulb like you suggest.

Brad
Lucas 7-23 with slabber. Nyle L53 kiln. Shopbot CNC 48x96

K-Guy

Quote from: blackhawk on September 13, 2022, 08:53:37 AMKind of odd they designed it that way.


There is a reason for that...cost. We were trying to keep the cost down to make it affordable. We were afraid of moisture condensing and freezing on the circuit board and then shorting it out when you turn the kiln on. 

Other than a light on a t-stat you could wrap the control box in self-regulating heat tape of the type used on exposed water lines but it still needs to be in an insulated box.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

customsawyer

I agree with WDH. For you to stick 12' 6" lumber in a 13' hole then every board has to be stacked perfectly even on the ends. This is do able if you stack up against a stop or plate on the end. Otherwise it could add extra work trimming everything just right. A extra foot in length and width isn't going to add very much to your cost per load to dry and even less in a cost per bf.
The most efficient way to run my kiln is to reload it right after I unload it. This keeps your chamber up to temp so you aren't having to heat all the walls and concrete back up.   
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

YellowHammer

I use waterproof truck tool boxes for our multiple Nyle kiln controller units.  Heavy gauge metal, not insulated, and plenty of room.  Mount them right to the side of the kiln unit with screws and done....

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/tractor-supply-36-in-steel-underbody-box

Protect the LCD display from wide temperature swings, or it will fail.  I've gone through several displays, about $500 each, and have one now that blacks out anytime the box temperature gets to about 95F which is most of summer in Alabama, otherwise it works fine.  So protect it.  I haven't replaced it yet, because now it will work all winter and it gives me an excuse to call Stan (K-Guy) at Nyle and chat with him occasionally.  

Install a wall mount outlet inside the controller box when you do the wiring and plug in a low wattage light bulb, which is also used as heat in the winter and keeps the unit from freezing.  No condensation.

Cut a 3" hole in the side of the box and install a computer cooling fan, $15.  That will keep it cool in the summer.

I agree, make the door chamber bigger.  The heart of the kiln chamber are the door seals.  If they are damaged, you are out of action until they get fixed because you can't run and heat the system with door leaks.  All it takes is one bump with the forklift or loader and it's a bad day.

Put blocks down on the floor for the lumber pack runners and pour 5 gallons of silver sealcoat on the concrete.  It's a horrible mess but it will cure out in time.  I have not found a better kiln floor sealer.

Use both manual and auto vents for the kiln chamber.  The auto vent louvers leak, so will not allow efficient high temerpature heating.  So mount the auto louvers on one side of the wall and then the Nyle manual closing lids to the other side.  So now they can be fully closed doing the sterilization cycle.  Or buy lots of duct tape and get ready to tape the vents closed during the winter.

Use 500 watt halogen work lights for aux heat, $15 each at Lowes.  I have 2,000 watts in mine and that works fine.  

When you think you've used enough insulation....use more.

Mount several extra fans on the fan deck to improve airflow, I have 4.

Cut a big hole in the bottom of the L53 similar to the front air hole to allow air to come on though the bottom, as well as the front.  it will greatly increase airflow through the unit and also increase moisture removal by about 30%.  

The L53 is a good machine.    

 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

 

 

My control box is under a roof and mounted on the back of the kiln chamber.  This pic was before everything was painted Bulldog red.

Below is a pic of the hole in the bottom of the unit that Yellowhammer references allowing more airflow to the condenser. 



 


Below is a view of the bottom hole cutout in the bottom of the unit with the cover removed.




 

A baffled load.  You can see the 4 extra fans on the back fan deck. 



 



Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

blackhawk

WDH and Yellowhammer - Thank you very much for the info and pictures!  Extremely helpful.

Do you know the model number of the extra Mechatronics fans that you used?  I read in another thread that these were the same as what is used inside the L53.  I couldn't find a thread that mentioned the model number though.

Yellowhammer - Could you elaborate a little more on the vent louvers?  First, the powered vent goes on the same wall as the L53 main unit near the floor, correct?  Are you saying to add an extra set of louvers to the powered vent opposite the existing louvers so that the powered vent can be sealed off better?

I found out from K-Guy that the temperature probes are 32 feet long and you can buy a control cable to match.  With that length, I may be able to reach my insulated garage and mount the controller in there, so it will always be dry and kept from extreme temps.

Brad
Lucas 7-23 with slabber. Nyle L53 kiln. Shopbot CNC 48x96

WDH

UF25HC12 BTH  Mechatronics fan with the metal backplate.  Do not buy the ones with the black plastic back plate. The black plastic back plate will get hot and the screws holding it on will wallow out and the fan might fall into your heater coils ruining them.  The UF25HC12 BTH fans are difficult to find. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

Yes, use a manual vent to fully close the auto vents, they leak a lot, so two vents on each opening.  Actually, and this will make Stan cringe, I simply foamed up the non powered vent, the L53 doesn't need two fully functioning vents, no more than a pair of boxer underwear needs a trap door flap on the back. ;D ;D ;D

So I have only been using one vent for a couple years, as there is enough spillage to properly vent the kiln.  One less thing to worry about.

I don't have the model number of the upgraded fan motors handy, but WDH has them.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

blackhawk

WDH and Yellowhammer - Much thanks again.

Those Mechatronics fans look like they are out of stock everywhere until March 2023!!!!

I found an Orion fan on Digikey and it is actually rated to 176F and is all metal except for the fan blades.  (Called the manufacturer to confirm.)  I may try these:  axial fan with metal housing
Lucas 7-23 with slabber. Nyle L53 kiln. Shopbot CNC 48x96

WDH

blackhawk, most excellent.  Those 850 CFM fans are perfect.  I am going to order a couple too as the Mechatronics fans are on backorder. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Larry

My plan was to load my kiln with one pack of 600 board foot plus some.  It was really difficult with 4' long forks on the forklift because the mast hit the top of the kiln.  I used web strapping to get the packs in and out but it was awkward and time consuming.  What I needed was fork extensions but something happened every time I ordered.  Out of stock or back ordered until the next century than I would forget until I had to unload the kiln.

Made a set 6' long a few weeks ago.  They work great!  Still have to weld on a chain on the back to hold them in place and a little paint would be nice. ::)


Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

K-Guy


Larry
If you look online for fork extensions, you can see how the weld a loop on the back that holds them on but allows picking them up without having to get off your equipment.


Also for everybody, Yellowhammer can testify that a post to stop your pack from hitting the equipment is a good idea. Right Robert??  smiley_jester
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

Don P

I have intended to do that and drill a couple of those tall bike flags into the slab at the back stop point.

I was wondering something the other day. Assuming the same insulation levels in a container kiln and a site built kiln. Does the slab floor consume more energy?

YellowHammer

Yeah, it is possible, once in a while, to run the wood against the kiln machine and crush it like a beer can. Of course if Nyle built them out of 1/2" armor plate instead of tin foil, they would survive the crash. :D :D

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

doc henderson

Well Don, I am sure you know that the concrete floor and the container floor can both loose heat.  Insulation is the amount of resistance or slowing of that loss.  A concrete slab can be insulated and or at least have a "thermal break", so it is not in contact with soil.  this stops the direct transfer of heat.  the amount of transfer also is dependent on the gradient or difference in temp of the two items.  If you are heating a space in winter, it will lose heat to the cooler environment in an attempt to heat the entire world.  Our goal is to slow the loss to make a certain space conditioned to the specs we want and minimize the energy expenditure.  In the dead of winter, the temp below ground is somewhat constant.  so, a basement slab has a lesser gradient then say the exposed walls.  you can also heat the soil and decrease the gradient, but this takes more energy initially.  A thermal mass can also even out temp changes and why we like the floor heat systems in a shop.  if you open a big door and lose heat, it feels comfy again soon after you close the door as the floor is radiating heat.  Like stepping into the sunshine.  So, a floor does not consume heat but transfers it based on gradient.  We can try to mitigate this, but insulation material also has an expense.  

In my shop basement floor, I put down heavy plastic then covered it with sand.  I insulated the stem walls and placed a thermal break between the walls and floor slab.  I use dimple board and that provided and air space, that also serves as a French drain should there ever be water in the basement.  dry sand insulates, wet sand does not.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Don P

I'll ask it another way, does it take more energy to run the oven with a big turkey vs a small one or is it the same no matter the mass inside the insulated box?

YellowHammer

It will take a slightly but noticeably longer time to heat up the big turkey, but in reality, the length of time to cook the turkey will be based on whether it's thawed or still frozen, or how wet the wood is when you put it in.

If you use several thousand pounds of top weights, and do hot kiln swaps, then the heat up time is much faster because the mass of the weight will heat up the kiln much faster than the electric strips themselves.  Thermal ballast.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

K-Guy

Robert is correct(I hate saying that. ;D) but another factor is if the slab is insulated or not. Insulated containers also do not have insulated floors and that can make a difference.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

doc henderson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_thermal_unit

more water takes more heat to increase the temp.  so, more wood takes more heat, or same heat for more wood takes longer.  I think to compare the container vs the slab, you need to know more about the two in terms of insulation.  for things "mostly water" the btu definition helps.  more water takes more heat.  with thermal mass such as weight and concrete, there is energy to load it with heat that delays the temp rise in the kiln, and a prolonged cooling off (loss of heat) after it is turned off.  so, I like that many (Jake and Robert) try to quickly change out the kiln without letting things cool off.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Larry

When I built my kiln I put 1-1/2" of foam down before pouring the slab.  I also wrapped the edges of the slab with the same stuff.

Seemed like it was taking far too long to heat up especially in cold weather.  I bought the cheap Harbor Freight laser temperature gun.  Brought the kiln up to operating temperature for a couple of days.  Checked temperature of all the walls and ceiling.  They were all within a few degrees of each other.  The floor was about 10 degrees cooler.  I reasoned that the concrete was acting as a heat sink.  With this in mind I built a R-30 insulated floor on top the concrete....had extra height in the kiln to allow this.  Kiln comes up to temperature both for drying and heat treating much faster.  Walls, ceiling, and floor are now all the same temperature (within a couple degrees).  I thought this was a worth while improvement for my kiln.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

YellowHammer

I sprayed foam insulation on the concrete floor and it helped my kiln also. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

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