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Cutting white oak veneer

Started by Buzz-sawyer, December 01, 2003, 07:07:30 PM

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Buzz-sawyer

I am interested in turing some of the crotches and curly stuff I have collected into veneer on a bandmill...I am a circle mill guy and always have run one...soooo I am wondering bout cutting this stuff thin and laminating it to plywood for my new house....who has done this am I thinking right about the process....need some pointers...
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

woodmills1

I had one customer who made arched laminated gazeebo trusses.  I would cut his pressure treated stock on my 1/8 marks and he planed it then laminated them together.  that could work for you.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Kevin_H.

I think you will have a problem keeping the thin stuff from cracking while it dries. It might work cutting it in into thicker pcs and then resawing thin after it is dry.
Got my WM lt40g24, Setworks and debarker in oct. '97, been sawing part time ever since, Moving logs with a bobcat.

Buzz-sawyer

So Kevin what ya think cut it 5/4 then air/kiln dry then cut it 1/8''?
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Kevin_H.

I think that would work out the best as far as cutting down on the degrade as it dried.

I dont know how one could sticker 1/8" stuff anyway ;D

Now sawing dried white oak is no fun either. ;D
Got my WM lt40g24, Setworks and debarker in oct. '97, been sawing part time ever since, Moving logs with a bobcat.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

There is a way.

Perhaps 20 years ago I remember a Fine WoodWorking mag. article on how to handle burl veneers.   The concept will probably apply to your White Oak puzzle.

Burl veneers can be brittle and normally dry with curls and ripples.  In other words, they are a pain, even when you buy from a supplier "ready to use".   The remedy is to dampen, then press between cardboard.  Sometimes a glycerin solution is used to dampen the veneer pieces.

How can this apply?   Cut the White Oak green - 1/8" thick or less.  Pack, rather than sticker, the slices between box cardboard with weighted plywood on top.   (An alternative is to clamp the veneer stack between two plywood pieces.)  Have an extra "set" of cardboard sheets on hand.   Since box cardboard is corrugated and has air channels, you can blow air thru the stack.   Also, you can restack occasionally,  changing out your damp cardboard for fresh pieces.   When the damp ones dry out,  cycle the stack again, etc.
With each change, the cardboard will draw out a little more moisture.
Phil L.   P.S.  Cardboard:  Appliance stores and recyclers.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

solidwoods

I've often wanted to try this,  now it depends on what kind of burl you have  (wet fresh no rot or major pockets, just swirled wood,wet like fresh lumber  OR dried dusty  open pocketed burl )

Crotch is usually wet/fresh (did I type that?),,so what ever method you work out should have prety consistant results (as compaired to a dry crotch) :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D

And I'm assuming short length,, it's for Cab doors or shorter piece work?

If you have a burl that's wet/fresh I would use polyurethane glue or resorcinol glue and press it (vac. bag is real quick),,air dry it,,kiln dry it (or kiln like conditions..it's thin),,sand and go!

If you have a burl that's dry,,poly glue would fill the voids and may not look good or require a lot of picking out,,  resorcinol could be died black and would just look black to the viewer.

I have worked veneers,,and unless you can get the wood down to .030" you won't be able to use veneer techniques on the thicker wood.  
And I'm no fan of trying to force wood to stay in one place, but you never know it may work.

and I would cut as thin as possible on the mill,, do the glue job right then, don't let it dry at all.

Of course I don't know if the resorcinol would hold wet,wet wood?
JIM
 
TOM/anybody
I installed the ispell but right mouse choice's of spell check and i spell options make the scirpt error page,,,continue runnings scripts y/n ,, and no i spell.
 ???
IE Version 4.72
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

IndyIan

Does anyone know how the high production veneer process works?  I'm thinking they cut it wet but I'm just guessing.   ;D

Ian

Jeff

Solidwoods, yer about 2 years over due on a browser update.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Buzz-sawyer

Appreciate responses guys...
I am still uncertain as to the "ACCEPTED...or STANDARD" method of doin this...not all my material is burled..some is just white oak with rays from quarter sawing....I really would not like to cut up a bunch to practice then see it split or pull itself apart....thanks
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

IndyIan

Actually I was thinking that www.woodweb.com would have some information on what to do with 1/8" veneer.  Check it out.

Ian

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey Buzz,

Believe you me,  none of us have the heavy duty equipment necessary to pursue the "standard" and "accepted" methods.
Here are the primary two methods:

1.     Rotary cut.

2.     Sliced.

Both use knives, not bands to cut.  The knives, which are as long as the log is, stay still.  The log, or portion of a log, moves.  Both use steam chambers to specially prepare the logs, which are cut while wet and hot.  Both use steam-heated press dryers to force out water, or use steam-heated successive rollers to force-dry the veneers under pressure.

Method #1 uses the entire log on a lathe and spins it against a massive stationary cutter knive with a "nose bar"   The nose is adjustable for different woods.  The knife moves toward the log at an adjustable rate per revolution and "peels" the log. There is no loss of wood to sawdust.  The combination of the nose pressure ahead of the knife and the very sharp knife permits cutting, without what are called "knife checks".  Low grade or binder veneers permit knife checks.
Method #2 uses a stationary knife also, but the log is swung thru an arc, each pass slicing a sheet off the portion of the log which is in the fixture.  Other types slice straight with a nose bar and knife.  

The facilities and equipment cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Buzz-sawyer

Thank for the input Phil excellent info on the drying process!(and everyone!)

I do understand industrial veneer production on a rudementary  :P level and have been involved in professional carpentry for a good spell...(multiple decades :D)
I really am asking more specifically.... How small shops I>E cabinet and furnture makers of the finer stuff.....
use band mills to produce veneer which from what I have researched is a fairly accepted and common practice, cutting as thin as 1/16th.
I am just completely ignorant and out of my element as to how to do it...
I own a sawmill and run it full time (for a living ;)) and cut some grade lumber along with the cross ties and cants made for pallet mills.... and other construction materials....I am a pigs ear in search of a silk purse!
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I get your drift, Buzz.

I have a Hitachi resaw, which uses a 75mm wide, stellite tipped blade for such projects, but, when I do a cost analysis, ...  well
                         ya' gotta wunder: :P
     In the realm of commercial realities, can you come out?

I have dealt with reveneering and other tedious projects for 27 years.   Once, I re-veneered most of an entire player upright piano with "hammer veneering" techniques.   ???Other, less-involved veneer projects are commonly part of high-end piano restoration.

Option 1.     When considering the inefficiencies of the small shop methods required, and the fact that you have a sawmill,  is veneer's total cost cheaper than solid wood for you?  (Been there; done that.)
Option 2.     When considering the high efficiencies of the industry, are you better off to buy veneer, if you want to do veneer?

Much of my wood-related work is done to prove it can be done and to prove to myself that I can do it.  Other portions are just for the fun of it.  Then there comes that portion which has to make me a living.  My wife will never understand more than one of these categories! :D This project falls somewhere amongst 'em, but the choice is yours. ;)
Phil L.   P.S.    :P The Egyptians did excellent veneer work
                            with hammer veneer techniques and hide glue
                             or fish glue over five thousand years ago.
                           After all this, if you are still wanting to do
                          time travel,  I can point you to resources.
Back to WERK!? :'( :'( :'( :'( :-[ :'( :'( :'(
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Tom


Buzz-sawyer

Heyyyyyy Tom....He looks just like Gilligan!!@! ;)

PHil...I am just a non conformist and usually my rule is,"If I cant do it it cant be done" :D in other words I think I have to be able, (at least once ) to prove how "easy" it is to build my own _______ (fill in the blank.)
 Or could be that it is the perfect combination of stubborness and cheapness :o.......now about those Egyptians if they could do it with thier foreign made tools.......where are the links to time travel!
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Fla._Deadheader

Y'all may STILL think I'm nutz, but, ever hear of Gorilla Glue??? The stuff is WATER soluble, meaning, you CAN glue up wet wood. 8) 8)
  It's 'spensive though. If I could find some Cypress burl or Crotch, heyyyyy, I GOT a Cypress crotch, in the junk pile. ::) :o :o :o  Gotta salvage THAT sucker. Stand by for an update in a couple of weeks.
  Uhhhhh, somebody remind me that I gotta remember to get that crotch outta the junk pile. ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Buzz-sawyer

Harold first "Monkey" blades ...now "Gorrilla" Glue???
What next ::) ::) ???
Gator chips ;D ;D :D ;)
 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey guys!

If any body out there has glued up wet wood and has been able to observe that glued panel for a while (say ten years or so),  I would like to know about the product and the technique.  I have an idea about maximizing quartersawn faces, which would depend upon being able to glue-up wet surfaces.
Phil L.
       P.S.  Piano restorers have to think in terms of
                at least decades.  This week I worked on
                   one piano manufactured 1893, and another
                      from 1884!  Gotta make 'em last!
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

solidwoods

Gorilla glue is Polyurethane Glue (titebond make one also)  you won't have any luck edge gluing wet veneer  ,, shrinkage movement will ruin it.  Dry it first (at least air dry 20%).
JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

Fla._Deadheader

Thanks for the glue info Jim. At least I'm not completely nutz, eh???  I was thinkin of adding that when the MC gets low enough, the Gorilla glue would hold, NOT right after being sawn??? The stuff DOES hold very well, though. ;D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey Don (Buzz-Sawyer),

I have that phrase down for wifie dearest, when she gets home:
    
"Now, honey,  I'm just the walkin' epitomy
of a perfect combination of stubbornness and cheapness economy!"
She will ROLL !     You and I must be similar in this.
                  
:D :D :) :D :D              

I'll be surprised, if you haven't already been exposed to Tage Frid.  (Pronounced Tay  Frid, as in "day" and "bid")  His books covering this include:
   Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking,  Taunton Press.

Go to :      http://taunton.com     and search for Tage Frid, etc.

Time travel at its best !

Phil L.
    
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Buzz-sawyer

Thanks for the lead Phil...
My dad tells me I was born this way.... ??? ??? ;D

I guess the upside is that I enjoy learning :P and building 8)....and doin it for free or cheap!
I attended a recent auction and bought hydraulic pumps , and valves, motors and power units for .50 and a dollar a piece....
Don

Harold
I could imagine you there bidding me up to $1.50 for the hydraulic 12volt pump....sure you could use one for that next contraption...right??
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Fla._Deadheader

Almost Buzz. I'm a goin with 24 volts next time ;D :D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

solidwoods

FL D your sys needs amps not volts.
Volt changes are mostly for equip match or wire size amp limits.  :-* :-*  (are these little guy's blow'in kisses?)
Happy Holidays
JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

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