- The small logger is facing extinction -

[Firewoodjoe]

Bargemonkey is that like sustainable forestry education here. We have to have 8 hours every year. But at least they try do different things. Come to the woods and do saw training too truck safety in a class room.

[Southside]

I am a dinosaur around here.  I do have work lined up for the next couple of years, but only because my one man operation production is slow and I will work in the places nobody else will go.  I have my little processor for the pine and some hardwood, the Franklin makes life nice, but I also have a pair of 1/2 sister mares and a single horse that I can use when need be, which is going to be pretty soon down in this maple swail (if the weather holds out) I am in as now I am to where every twitch uses up all the cable on the winch, and that gets old quick.

I had a rather large paper mill contact me and wanted to have me do second thinning with my processor on a 325 AC lot to start, and they had all the ground I could ever handle available.  I went to the mill, met with them, the price was good, and all was good to go, the issue was a specific, non-hired trucking insurance they required me to carry, which nobody would sell to me.  The crazy thing was I was not going to be doing any of the trucking, nor even hiring the trucking companies that would be doing the trucking, I was only doing the logging and loading.  Did not matter at all, not a single insurance company would sell me the coverage, so I had to pass up on the job. 

In the 50 miles I travel to one of the mills I know of two other guys who are doing it like I am, and one of them is well into his 60's if not older, so yea it kinda makes a guy feel like T-Rex after the big flash in the sky.  The one good thing is nobody sees me as a threat and the enforcement folks are too busy chasing the big fish to even notice I am around. 

[tj240]

most of the BIG  crews get the job because now they are mostly lump sum, and the big buyers pay them to cut the wood by the cord and thousand. i used to work for companies like that and they dont make alot just payroll and fuel. keep your head up good work will keep you working. lump sum for me is no good. log on keep up the good work to you all

[BargeMonkey]

 I have a relative who is one of the big producers for "wagner-bailies" and they work these guys like rented step children. The deal with the state is only coming down because they have 1/3 of the people than years ago. I see the "big guys" come and go, we had 1 down this way a while ago, 2 stroke delimbers on the header, chip trailers, and the mess is still there.

[luvmexfood]

Oh no. I'm only 5'6". Does that mean I am facing extinction?

[longtime lurker]

Issue here on the other side of the world is pretty much the same... minus that we don't have any "big guy" left either.

Most of the industry here shut down in the late 1980's following the closure to the rainforest resource... now the state is trying to rebuild the industry based on the eucalypt resource. The knowledge base is pretty much gone - theres plenty of guys floating around with a chainsaw ticket because well... in our brave new world you need a ticket for everything... but guys with production felling experience are limited, and thats a whole different level of ticket here anyway. To get the production ticket you need to actually work in the woods... to walk into the woods first you need to have two other generic tickets plus first aid... etc etc etc. Just to give a guy a start to see if he is interested/capable means I have to send them through a training module and thats a quick grand gone.

Add to that insurance which is (a) hard to source and (b) expensive because they can be, and equipment standards that make it hard to start out with small/old gear and work your way up, and the fact that banks aren't prepared to finance old gear anyway. Then throw in some pretty marginal logs being classed as compulsory sawlogs and a mans got to be mad to be in this game.

I don't like taking my kids out with me because they just might like it. Says a lot huh?

[Kodiakmac]

In our area the small logger is almost gone.  Big forest corporations have the support of the provincial [and federal] government and control the log market. Both levels of government have substantially reduced their staff and downloaded the admin costs to the operator [both big and small] so the economy of scale for little operators is also a big factor.

If I go thru the admin hoops and apply to export the logs to the US [about doubles my trucking cost] and an extra handling cost for log scaling, sorting and storage, reload,  brokerage fees, etc, I still get 50% more [gross]for my logs in the US.  But this involves a log yard, scale site, loaders, and associated infrastructure, so AGAIN, you need a big operation to make pay.

For the small operator, we can not compete...Small salvage or public auction timber sales are also a thing of the past....The security deposits for these sales are in the tens of thousands as well, and are often put up by the mills who use their preferred contractors to do the logging.

Aye, indeed.  The little guy has to handle the same amount of bureaucracy and red tape as the big guys...without the luxury of being able to farm it out to administrative staff who are used to the processes.   

Within the last year bids were asked for thinning/salvage on a few small local parcels of Crown land and County forest and no one was interested.  Nobody has the time, energy or inclination to deal with the paper process or to run the gauntlet of regulatory hoops. 

The few remaining small guys in this area are doing select cuts and thinning on private woodlots and selling firewood and feeding small backyard mills that supply niche markets. 

[BargeMonkey]

The few remaining small guys in this area are doing select cuts and thinning on private woodlots and selling firewood and feeding small backyard mills that supply niche markets.

Thats the only way we are making it, if we just went after the big high grade lots it would be 8 days a week and wouldnt last to long.

[lumberjack48]

Big Company's ran all us small loggers out of business back in early 80's around here, including the small saw mills.
What i mean by small logger is year round loggers, the only income we had, i'm not talking about the farmer, logger, they went on farming. Most of the farmers were hobby farmers and hobby loggers, their wife's had good jobs, thats how they made it.

[Kodiakmac]

"...their wife's had good jobs, thats how they made it."

Aye, that's pretty well what I tell my wife.  "You know what I just figured out Cheri?"  If you could get just one more full-time job, I could be in the bush full-time!"   ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Production is killing the little guy and the reason for that is our timber is being continually devalued. Up here mill's get cheap crown wood and thier own freehold, so you have to compete on production with the big boys if the same wood price is going to pay the bills. Our government lost $millions of dollars each year for a few years from timber management. I think last year they were $35 M in the hole. How the heck can that be? There sure aren't that many rangers eating the budget, they have been cutting and closing offices for 30 years. I see fewer woodlots being cut now. Also, one logger told me that if it hasn't been cut in the last 30 years, it won't be until landownership changes on that lot. And I have seen lots of woodlots flattened with ownership changes, they cut it the next day practically. A lot of large farmers here that own hundreds of acres, if not most, have their woods cut by loggers, they no longer cut much wood themselves if it all. A lot of them loggers are mechanized, as the farmer needs the cash and a quick cut not strung along for 8 months on 200 acres. I see a lot of high graded land for what little money it has generated. You won't retire on it with 200 acres or even 500.

[Kodiakmac]

"...I have seen lots of woodlots flattened with ownership changes, they cut it the next day practically. A lot of large farmers here that own hundreds of acres, if not most, have their woods cut by loggers, they no longer cut much wood themselves if it all. A lot of them loggers are mechanized, as the farmer needs the cash and a quick cut not strung along for 8 months on 200 acres. I see a lot of high graded land for what little money it has generated..."

Man, you said a mouthful there!  A lot of the remaining woodlots are being clearcut in this area by large operators (many from Quebec) and then in come the trackhoes and rock-trucks and land is then stumped and grubbed and turned into cropland.  The ridiculous price per acre for farmland - $7,000 to $17,000 per acre depending on which end of the county you're in - is behind it.  They are paying $800 to $1000 per acre for the wood, so the farmer is left with a bit of cash to help with the cost of the rest of the clearing. 

What is behind it all is subsidized ethanol production and our Canadian supply-management system for dairy products.  Both factors are responsible for the insane land prices.  But with corn and beans sitting at basement floor prices for the 2nd year in a row, I'm predicting a drop in enthusiasm for bush-clearing.  Unless of course, this current flat-broke-and-busted Liberal provincial government can borrow another 10 or 20 billion for a "risk management program" for farmers that would to make up any deficit whenever corn fell below $200 (or $300 for that matter) a tonne .

The only good thing about it all is that whenever some old hippy points at the fields of stumps and yells about greed and the despoiling of nature, I get the small satisfaction of pointing out that our collectivist dairy supply management system, and subsidized ethanol production are the primary causes of the moonscapes that offend his eyes.  Both are causes that he and his crowd enthusiastically voted for.

[OntarioAl]

Kodiakmac
X1
Al

[David-L]

Kodiakmac,  This corn thing is going to be the demise of a lot of good land that should never be cropland IMO. Now voting for the politician who says he's with you often changes once there in office and I shake my head and wonder why I even voted.  Per acre comparison, what sequesters more carbon with inputs added into the equation. Corn or managed forest land. Pretty sure its the latter. my two cents.

                                                         David l

[Corley5]

I bid a MiDNR job a couple weeks ago with a bid I figured I could make $$$ on.  It was 20% over the minimum.  The winner was 75% over and the runner up was 60% over. Both are large harvesting companies.

[SwampDonkey]

The price of farm land that was quoted above is far above anything we see here. $3000 would be tops, I know many farmers here that buy crop land for $1600 an acre on mortgage defaults, far less than it costs to clear. We have a farm land registry that deters anyone from making a bunch of house lots on a field, unless 16 years of back taxes are paid. Then who would build out in the boon docks unless they had a good union job anyway? You won't on $10-12 an hr. Dairy here in NB is only 2 % of national supply, chaff left in the chip bag. No, they are mostly cutting land here for cash. Recent land clearing here has been for potatoes, now the acres of potatoes is way down. Hardly see a potato field this year. And PEI is even worried as McCains is closing plants and reducing or cutting contracts. Those new fields and potato sheds McCains wanted still have to be paid for even if they don't want them potatoes now. Why anyone would think McCains wouldn't cut them off on a whim is beyond me, since their history pretty much proves otherwise. Where will the next woodlot come from to pay the bills?

[ehp]

around here I see no real big guys , most are crews with 1 or 2 skidders , But I believe the number of cutting crews is less than before I moved down here , There seems to be enough timber to cut but the grade of timber is getting a lower grade than what was getting cut before with not so much veneer . I seem to get enough bushes in the 50 to 150 acre range but I cut more 25 to 40 acre bushes and some smaller 10 acre cuts but only if they got good timber on them . I make enough money doing what I love doing and I work by myself so my over head is quite low , everything is paid for and I have not bought anything new and plan on keeping it that way . 1 big time logging company would kill most of us in this area as there is only so much timber and the 2 mills can only handle so much logs , 1 thing I am thinking on thou this year is the corn price sucks and there should be a few more farmers looking to get their bush cut to put some more money in the pocket put I have already got my winter cut lined up and approved for this winter

[lopet]

What is behind it all is subsidized ethanol production and our Canadian supply-management system for dairy products.

I agree mostly with that, but now those guys are laughing even more , when they can buy cheap feed.
As long as supply management is supported here it only gets worse for all the others who wanna buy land.
As i am surrounded by those guys I am almost thinking about selling. Naaaaaa I rather like to be a pain in the a$$ guy .

[ehp]

My own thinking is its going to crash and crash hard in 24 months then lets see how many farms sell for $18,000 plus an acre like they are now but I'm also thinking logging will slow up some but not stop like other jobs are going to see , will someone like me still have work , its hard to say cause I'm the new kid on the block but if I can keep cutting enough good grade timber that might help me out 

[Kodiakmac]

My own thinking is its going to crash and crash hard in 24 months then lets see how many farms sell for $18,000 plus an acre like they are now but I'm also thinking logging will slow up some but not stop like other jobs are going to see , will someone like me still have work , its hard to say cause I'm the new kid on the block but if I can keep cutting enough good grade timber that might help me out

You know what?  I hope you're right.  Its getting to the point that down in the south end of the county you can't do a 360 without seeing a couple of track-hoe booms off in the distance.   

The one thing that is helping the small guy out here is firewood sales.  The electricity prices in this province are the highest in North America (and going up 42 % in the next 4 years) and furnace oil and n. gas and propane prices went nuts last winter.  I only got about 55 cords of firewood cut and I sold every stick of it...could easily have sold twice, maybe three times that jut within 10 miles of home. 

[ehp]

things have to change cause the country just cannot stand all these increases in cost without making more money , just look at the price of a new skidder , I know I'm not smart enough to figure out how in the hell I could pay for one and I feel I make pretty good money , I know some loggers around me make less than me as they cut more lower grade stuff . Back when I was logging up north we ran up to 7 skidders but down here if we did this we would run out of timber before to long and would have the mills full so no where to sell it so you have to watch everything and try to figure out what is best for you and everyone around you , I'm in Norfolk area so no fear of seeing track-hoes off in the distance , our by-law doesnot like that kind of logging

[lopet]

I keep saying this for years now and it has gone the other way.  Those big fellas just go out and borrow more, because  they're too cheap to pay their income tax and as long as they can cash flow it, the banks will throw money at them.
Greed  greed greed , that's all there is.
Yes it's going downhill with this country while spending is getting out of hands with the wind turbine scenario, healthcare , roads and bridges and on and on.

[Kodiakmac]

"...no danger of seeing track-hoes off in the distance , our by-law doesnot like that kind of logging..."

Funny you bring that up.  Our County is being pressured by the tree-huggers to put a by-law in place to prevent tree-cutting.  If it goes ahead, the by-law will have no ability to restrict the kind of tree-cutting that is causing the alleged problem: clearing bush for cropland.

However, it will further strangle us little guys...the fellows who are not causing the problem.  Whether it's firearms, free speech, taxation, or chainsaws, it seems to be the Canadian Way: target the fellows with no political influence, and leave those with political influence (who are causing the problems) alone. 

It's all designed to permit politicians to say they are doing something about problems - but all it is actually doing is giving the appearance that something is being done. 

[ehp]

no clear cutting allowed here by the bylaw , every tree you cut has to be released by the by-law before you can cut it , yes there is alot of red tape but you either put up with it or move some where else cause their not going to change anything just for you and once you learn how everything works its not that bad

[Kodiakmac]

no clear cutting allowed here by the bylaw , every tree you cut has to be released by the by-law before you can cut it , yes there is alot of red tape but you either put up with it or move some where else cause their not going to change anything just for you and once you learn how everything works its not that bad

I guess I have a problem going to ask some bureaucrat's permission to cut down a tree that I bought and paid for when I purchased the land it grows on.  I hate seeing nice bushes being turned into cornfields, but the all-to-typical reaction is to create legislation - which further erodes the freedom to own, use, and enjoy private property.  And that, is a far bigger and more enduring problem than too many forests being converted to croplands. 

When (not if) the false economies collapse, the fields will go back to scrub-land in no time at all, and the successional forest stages will go through their cycle.  But, there will be no regeneration of our lost property rights.