Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[doctorb]

Just so you have the facts, here's the CDC study mentioned earlier. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6936a5-H.pdf

May I suggest that all interested read it.  The conclusions of this study have been widely misrepresented and publicized, including here.  It is a study of patients that caught Covid-19.  They were asked if they wore masks.  Many said they attempted to do so within the guidelines.  So from that info alone one could gather that masks are not protective for the non -infected or helpful in preventing spread of the virus in the infected patient.  

However, the largest, and seemingly discarded published conclusion of the study is that the trend for catching the virus came from indoor dining, where masks are often removed for eating and drinking, and the infection came from a close contact or relative.  42% of the patients said they had close contact with an infected person. The science of the investigation was trying to determine how and where the patients got infected.  The conclusions of the study say nothing about the effectiveness or the ineffectiveness of masks, but rather emphasize certain behaviors (indoor dining) that put these patients at risk.  Want to discuss?  Read the study.

[nativewolf]

Thanks doc.  That's actually very logical.  Just caught up with a friend down in Houston.  His in-laws had 1 family member get infected at work, within 3 days that 1 person spread the virus to the entire close knit family.  11 sick, 1 in hospital, no one died.  His wife is the only person that did not see other family members for a couple of weeks so they fortunately did not get sick, she's way too heavy so a high risk person, glad she missed it.   

[Ianab]

85% people that caught it wore a mask (15% most, 70% always) when out, so they still caught it when most likely those that were spreading it were wearing a mask (see above 85%). There are also reports of people catching legionaries disease from wearing masks all the time.

Agree, masks aren't a magic preventative, and there could be other issues with wearing them.

That doesn't necessarily make them useless. No one has been able to do a study with a control group (masked / unmasked) to actually give a definite answer. Maybe there were 50% less infections with masks? No one really knows. 

Again they do practically nothing to protect the wearer, just reduce the amount of virus particles an infected person is spraying around. That "should" help reduce the spread, but by how much? 

[Ianab]

The conclusions of the study say nothing about the effectiveness or the ineffectiveness of masks, but rather emphasize certain behaviors (indoor dining) that put these patients at risk

The "risk" factors there tie in with the observed outbreaks here. 
Restaurant, bar, church, cruise ship  etc

There have been infections outside those places, but they have been either close family, or just one or 2 cases. Those are the venues where one case suddenly becomes 10, and then gets spread to more family members, now you have 50 cases. 

No major outbreaks traced to supermarkets or workplaces that had some sort of controls in place. 

[doc henderson]

our clusters have been nursing homes, prison, and tech group homes.  Most employees at the hospital who are positive, got it from home and or friend/roommates, and not from working at the hospital where the masks and handwashing is mandatory when in contact with patients.  I think the mitigation measures help, like masks, handwashing, distancing.  It is a good article/study.  nice to see that and not an interpretation/conclusion from a secondary group.  stay safe.

[doctorb]

doc henderson-

I'm late to the party, but save some distanced birthday cake for me.  

Happy Birthday

Doctorb

[doc henderson]

thank you.  my wife was planning a big get together with friends, family and colleagues, but looks like we may cancel or scale it down.  best regards!

[Don P]

Yup, don't do it. The exposure of my client was a family gathering, that'll make a cousin feel good. Happily I don't think the 90+ year olds were exposed. Another cluster in the neighborhood is about half the members of a church, and then locally the nursing homes are all hot spots.

[SwampDonkey]

Mandatory to wear a mask here at businesses now, even gas bars. Started Monday I think. I don't know of anyone who has COVID, none of the family do. We've been wearing a mask when shopping for some weeks. Some masks I see aren't even N95 and some people don't even wear a mask properly, not even covering the nose.

[kantuckid]

OK, I read it and thanks for posting. In the ( :D mine :D) Walmart study of masking, I see lots of people with what I'm gonna call half-ass masks and also masks that don't cover their nose. 
Not a few but lots of whatever ya got masks.
 The study doesn't mention type of mask(I assume they hope it's the real thing, whatever that "is"?- but there have been media references to some masks, the neck gaiter thingys & some fabric home made versions come to mind as non-effective. 
We use the (made in China with a certification paper inside the box of 50 and a red stamp looking sort of official ;D) version I bought in bulk at a Ferguson Plumbing Supply store. Light blue, commonly seen, etc.. BTW, much cheaper than the Harbor Freight same ones. 
When to change em out? -other than smelling like yesterdays supper, whats the protocol for tightwads like me?  
My mask renewal is via UV exposure on my trucks dash? Is there a study on that? Seriously? :P

[doc henderson]

There is a lot of debate.  you can find a study to say what you want.  At work we wear the elastic loop ones all the time.  if in contact with a suspect patient (all should be suspect in our area now) we move to an N95.  even medical masks have lots of variation.  the white looped ones do not bend and fit your nose.  has a plastic insert instead of a metal one that retains shape.  It has been stated that talking loudly or coughing or sneezing put out more viral particles farther than just breathing or talking softly.  you have moms across the country yelling at kids to cough into their elbows, and sanitizing hands.  the only reason for an elbow is so the mucus is not on your hands to spread when you touch something.  I think almost any covering over you mouth and nose is better than nothing, or an elbow.  if you can breath around a mask, it prob. does not protect you at all.  it may still disrupt the flight of particles headed into the room, but not as well as a tight fitting mask, like an N95.  I still have some N95 masks I started using in April.  Remember we were not that busy early on.  We use one for a day, then bag it loosely and can reuse it in 3 days.  If it smell or the rubber straps are getting weak, time for a new one.  If we have to do a procedure like putting a tube in an airway, or even bipap, we move up to the papr. I wear a mask in any business I enter now.  yes half the people are not, but most of the elderly are.  I consider it at least to be a courtesy to the business, and may help slow the spread.  It is their business, just like someone's home.  It sets an example, and I am at higher risk to get it as I am exposed daily at work.

[Sedgehammer]

Yup, don't do it. The exposure of my client was a family gathering, that'll make a cousin feel good. Happily I don't think the 90+ year olds were exposed. Another cluster in the neighborhood is about half the members of a church, and then locally the nursing homes are all hot spots.

My mom is 80. I can imagine having a family get together at this time and have her there. What the heck were they thinking? While for those that are healthy and under 64 it isn't that dangerous, it really sky rockets after that.  

[doc henderson]

UV is used and we did get a unit to do masks and other stuff in OR.  Not sure after the light goes through the windshield.  The light may degrade the elastic (rubber)   .  I think there is still room for common sense.  that is the issue, not everyone has it.   ;)
I had my birthday, but the get together has been planned awhile, and my wife has worked hard.  I think she has planned a virtual part for my friends from all over the country to face time or zoom in.  My MIL has had it (covid).  We will be safe.  I think she also plans to have sanitizing beverages on hand as well.  
the original plans were over a hundred.  now "in person" will be people we see on a regular basis anyway (around 10).  My wife is disappointed.

[Raider Bill]

Mandatory to wear a mask here at businesses now, even gas bars. Started Monday I think. I don't know of anyone who has COVID, none of the family do. We've been wearing a mask when shopping for some weeks. Some masks I see aren't even N95 and some people don't even wear a mask properly, not even covering the nose.

What is a "gas bar"?

[kantuckid]

All the bars I've been in were "gas bars"? One up in OH @ the "U" they used to have a contest where the longest flame got you something or other... 
Sanitizing beverages is a new term for my tender ears :D

A large pile of wet dirt awaits me and very unlikely to find any covid-19 buggers up there? If I could just pull myself off the web to actually work? 

As for family gatherings, Doc Fauci put the damper on that huh? We usually have ~35-40 people who get together at my home.  

[Sedgehammer]

Mandatory to wear a mask here at businesses now, even gas bars. Started Monday I think. I don't know of anyone who has COVID, none of the family do. We've been wearing a mask when shopping for some weeks. Some masks I see aren't even N95 and some people don't even wear a mask properly, not even covering the nose.

What is a "gas bar"?

gas station typically

[doc henderson]

I do not know, but there are oxygen bars in al natural places in Colorado.  you can add different scents like lavender.  not sure if that is what he is referring to.  We took a scout troop out to pizza, and the restaurant was full, but the owner also owned the O2 bar across the street, so we were put over there.  the pizza was ok, and no one tried the masks hooked to what looked like a bong.  

[Sedgehammer]

well @SwampDonkey needs to put down whatever he's doing and hurry up and answer that. Doesn't he know the world is on edge..... :D

[SwampDonkey]

@Sedgehammer and @Raider Bill, A place to pump gas and go in and get coffee and munchies. Been calling them gas bars for 40 years in Canada. :D

[Sedgehammer]

Now we know, thanks!

[SwampDonkey]

Uline is a big supplier of N95 masks, they keep pushing out the availability a month for some and 4 months for others. The hardware store wants $10 for just one, all plastic wrapped like your buying a screw driver set and you need tools to open the darn thing. :D A $2 mask in the good times.

[Gary_C]

However, the largest, and seemingly discarded published conclusion of the study is that the trend for catching the virus came from indoor dining, where masks are often removed for eating and drinking, and the infection came from a close contact or relative.  42% of the patients said they had close contact with an infected person. The science of the investigation was trying to determine how and where the patients got infected.  The conclusions of the study say nothing about the effectiveness or the ineffectiveness of masks, but rather emphasize certain behaviors (indoor dining) that put these patients at risk.  Want to discuss?  Read the study.

I did and what I see is the study raises more questions and the most important question is did the patients get infected thru the air or from the food, drink, and or surfaces. Seems the common thread is all were infected at eating/drinking establishments. Is it the eating/drinking act that causes the problem or is the lack of a mask the problem? Is it air or surface contamination? Do masks block the virus in one direction only? Lots of questions still unanswered.
The disturbing thing about the publicity about this study is the CDC reaction. After the study got it's recognition their spokesman said the mask effectiveness claim was taken out of context and the CDC had never claimed that masks would protect the wearer. Previously the CDC Director had strongly claimed that masks were better protection than a vaccine. 

[alan gage]

The disturbing thing about the publicity about this study is the CDC reaction. After the study got it's recognition their spokesman said the mask effectiveness claim was taken out of context and the CDC had never claimed that masks would protect the wearer. Previously the CDC Director had strongly claimed that masks were better protection than a vaccine.

It seems plausible to me that even if the masks didn't protect the wearer they could still be more effective than a vaccine in preventing the spread.

Alan

[doctorb]

Lots of factors there, Alan.

Depends upon the percentage of the population that received the vaccine, as well as the longevity and effectiveness of the immune response.  A safe, well-tolerated vaccine that has long lasting immunity is the golden ticket in this pandemic.

Gary, I agree with your questions, and while there have been many studies on the mode of virus transmission, all of the factors you point out could potentially increase the risk of spread.  However, I believe it's pretty well established that surfaces and food are, in general, not the source of infection in the vast majority of cases.  Reality is that you can't easily eat and drink without lowering your mask and raising your risk.  But you are correct....this study did not differentiate those potential virus sources.

Masks are such a hot topic.  I will opine that the CDC was caught very much off guard by the interpretation by some that this study proved the ineffectiveness of masks, as that was not within the design of the investigation at all.  In our current world, things can go sideways pretty quickly.

[Gary_C]

Yes, in any study it is critically important to have identified and control all the variables. It doesn't invalidate what they found but it sure leaves things open to interpretation.