Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[doc henderson]

remember, we all have different ideas about what constitutes a serious reaction.  to many lay people, "having" to go to the ED makes it serious.  to me, if you get to go home from the ED, it was not too serious.   ;)

[Tristen]

@doc henderson It is hard to weigh the risk vaccine v/s covid if we don't have good numbers on the side effects of the vaccine.   I agree and enjoy everything you said and all of your great information.  thank you

[Gearbox]

I got my first shot at Walmart yesterday at 6 30 AM . By late afternoon my arm hurt some by 7 00 PM I was getting real tired . Went to bed about 8 and woke this morning feeling fine . went to the woods later and limbed and bucked for a couple of hours . Tonight the injection spot is tender thats the last of the affects . IT was the Maderna [spelling] vaccine .

[JuanChair]

I do not personally or through my profession know anyone who has died or had a serious side effect from the vaccin

What about the claims people are becoming sterile due to the vaccine and wont see these reactions or affects until later down the road when they go to have children (or try to).  There are some reports that the vaccine is causing this.  edit that last part out as it came off wrong... see the next post for clarification

[JuanChair]

I do not personally or through my profession know anyone who has died or had a serious side effect from the vaccin

What about the claims people are becoming sterile due to the vaccine and wont see these reactions or affects until later down the road when they go to have children (or try to).  There are some reports that the vaccine is causing this.  Would you consider this a serious side affect.

I think I worded that in a wrong way... What I mean is is sterilization happens is it normal or is that a serious side effect.

[doc henderson]

In ten years we will look back and know it all.  I decided to get the vaccine.  we are used to the FDA CDC having done 20 years of research before new drugs are released.  When I fly, I reassure myself that the pilot does not want to die either, and will do all possible things to get us there safely.  Of course there have been the very rare pilot suicides.  Most of the grown ups in the room feel the vaccine is safer (than getting the virus), and if done quickly can shut this down.  hard for the virus to mutate unless it is replicating person to person.  I wish we had numbers but until we have lots of numbers, you cannot make assumptions about random cases.  I try not to push it too hard, cause I will just sound like another doctor with an agenda.  Like all things, make the right decision for you and live with the consequences.

[doc henderson]

I have not seen any credible report on that, and is poss. propaganda from the non vaccer crowd.  they send info to new parents with a scull and cross bones on the cover telling them to not vaccinate their children.  I will keep an eye out.  

[JuanChair]

I have not seen any credible report on that, and is poss. propaganda from the non vaccer crowd.  they send info to new parents with a scull and cross bones on the cover telling them to not vaccinate their .  I will keep an eye out.  

Yes please keep an eye open for anything related to sterilization because a lot of people down here are superstitious (not so much antivaxers with an agenda) but just leery of anything the government says or does and with reason see all the ulterior motives our government always has.   Our government killed all those students in two different mass massacres so the people are leery.  

[Old Greenhorn]

I have not seen any credible report on that, and is poss. propaganda from the non vaccer crowd.  they send info to new parents with a scull and cross bones on the cover telling them to not vaccinate their .  I will keep an eye out.  

Yes please keep an eye open for anything related to sterilization because a lot of people down here are superstitious (not so much antivaxers with an agenda) but just leery of anything the government says or does and with reason see all the ulterior motives our government always has.   Our government killed all those students in two different mass massacres so the people are leery.  

Juan, please be careful in your word choices here. Doc doesn't work for you. Doc is, as I know has already been pointed out, a Physician. He cannot, in any capacity tell you that the sterilization rumor is nonsense, because there is currently no medical advice to support that, nor is there any evidence that it even is a possibility. Regardless, there is no data anywhere to indicate any such thing, in any way. These are rumors started by unknown people for unknown reasons. This thread is for facts. "I heard" or "I read" or "somebody told me" somewhere type things are not facts. Doc has been keeping us all in the loop on this virus in a very professional way since the beginning. He works long hours under difficult conditions but still finds time to help the rest of us out with pertinent, timely, accurate, and useful information as he gets it. It's not my place, but I will ask anyway, please don't put burdens on him, he has enough.

[Nebraska]

After raising six kids through this house,  I would be really ok if sterilization was a  side effect, ;) it isn't that I am aware of. 
If my 36 hrs of feeling kinda crappy after round two was my cost to get to a societal herd immunity level that well,..... lets us not have to wear silly  ineffective face gear that makes my ears look funny in public....or lets all the kids go back to school and do normal kid things.....or lets us go sit in stadium with 92,000 faithfully optimistic college football fans this fall ....or lets our office manager go watch her grandson at the state wrestling tournament without being afraid of who is sitting next to her... If it gets us back to our normal free and very blessed way of life, it was way worth it, and I will willingly  do it again.
I see the benefits of many different types of vaccination programs every day, (animal and human) their goal is to help us, by and large they do.

[doc henderson]

Why COVID Vaccines are Falsely Linked to Infertility

[JuanChair]

Juan, please be careful in your word choices here. Doc doesn't work for you. Doc is, as I know has already been pointed out, a Physician. He cannot, in any capacity tell you that the sterilization rumor is nonsense, because there is currently no medical advice to support that, nor is there any evidence that it even is a possibility. Regardless, there is no data anywhere to indicate any such thing, in any way. These are rumors started by unknown people for unknown reasons. This thread is for facts. "I heard" or "I read" or "somebody told me" somewhere type things are not facts. Doc has been keeping us all in the loop on this virus in a very professional way since the beginning. He works long hours under difficult conditions but still finds time to help the rest of us out with pertinent, timely, accurate, and useful information as he gets it. It's not my place, but I will ask anyway, please don't put burdens on him, he has enough.

Good morning Old Greenhorn,
My apology if it came off that I ever thought Doc worked for me.  I honestly and humbly do not know how my post would ever suggest I felt that way, but I will try to be cautious of such sensitive misunderstandings regardless of what side of the post those misunderstandings are on.   
As for whether the sterilization or fertility rumors are true or false, I do not know, thats why I was asking Doc (a front line worker) who was sharing their firsthand experience and knowledge on what they have seen or know to be the facts.      Doc has a good grasp on medical issue and basic virus foundations from what I have seen him post.   His explanations on how vaccines work was detailed and therefore I figured he might know if there was a component that caused fertility issues as its a major concern to a lot of people down here.

I'm only looking for facts and posting links or screen shots of official COVID news or stories that I think are relevant to the discussions. 

I personally will not be eligible for the vaccine for some time but when that time comes I have to weigh the benefits of getting it (and the side effects) or taking my chances with getting the actual virus. 

Thank you for your post. 

[Old Greenhorn]

No problem, its takes a little while to find your way here and figure out what is what and who is who. I am still working on it after 3 years.
 If you read back through this whole thread and some of the others on the virus, you may learn more.

[JuanChair]

Why COVID Vaccines are Falsely Linked to Infertility

Thank You Doc, I had already read that very WebMD article the other day and to be honest with you (and with no disrespect intended to you personally) the article seemed to come off as propaganda, at least to me.   Why was that,

I caught myself reading between the lines and seeing the facts in how 60% of well educated, well trained and experienced front line medical workers were refusing the vaccine due to fertility concerns. 

That is a lot of smart people questioning the vaccine.  Regardless of the fertility issues being true or not (which we do not know at this time), the fact 60% of smart people across one state alone (Ohio) refusing the vaccine is a rather large and factual number that I  simply couldn't dismiss. 

Also in the same article they mentioned the German epidemiologist named Wolfgang Wodarg who is a well respected specialist who teamed up with another expert and former Pfizer employee and the two of them went on,

Quote:

"to ask the European Medicines Agency (the European Union counterpart to the FDA) to delay the study and approval of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. One of their concerns was a protein called syncytin-1, which shares similar genetic instructions with part of the spike of the new coronavirus. That same protein is an important component of the placenta in mammals. If the vaccine causes the body to make antibodies against syncytin-1, they argued, it might also cause the body to attack and reject the protein in the human placenta, making women infertile." 

The article seemed to me, to spent a lot of time dismissing all of these people and the icing on the cake was what they said in detail about the movie "Utopia" which as we all know many movies like this are based on realities we just don't want to accept.  When reading about the movie "Utopia", I couldn't help remember hearing Bill Gates saying in the now repeated video how the vaccine was going to really help us in terms of population control.   Was that a Freudian slip on Mr Gates part, we may never know as its a rhetorical question

The article just left me more questions than answers.   Again thank you so much for posting all you have  and I look forward to reading more. 

[JuanChair]

No problem, its takes a little while to find your way here and figure out what is what and who is who. I am still working on it after 3 years.
If you read back through this whole thread and some of the others on the virus, you may learn more.

Thank you for the response.  I have read through this thread and other articles on COVID.  I love all the great information and links others are providing here as well. 
All we can do is work together to to post what we know are facts, raise questions on what we are concerned with and hope others like Doc who have such vast experience can answer our questions without it becoming too much of a burden on him.  I'm sure when he started this thread, he never imagined it would reach almost 100 pages.  
I hope Doc is strong enough to go another 100 pages. 

[Brucer]

... It is hard to weigh the risk vaccine v/s covid if we don't have good numbers on the side effects of the vaccine.   ...

If you go way back in this topic to post #1335 on page 67, you'll find a link to the Pfizer monograph for their vaccine. There is a lot of information in there, including the most common side effects (starting on page 11).

The information includes the frequency of each side effect after the first and second doses (in both the placebo group and the vaccinated group); it has two sets of tables, one for age 55 and under, and one for over 55's; and it gives the frequency of severe reactions as well as "ordinary" reactions.

Generally speaking, you're more likely to experience one of the side effects after the second dose (which is good), and those of us over 55 are less likely to experience side effects than younger folk ;D.

[firefighter ontheside]

I prefer to disregard when one expert comes out against something, because he's an expert and knows better than 10,000 other experts.  Why take his word on an issue over the 10,000 others that disagree.  It's like looking for reviews on a product you're thinking of buying and deciding not to buy it because one person had a bad experience.  Very often you see the bad review, but then the good reviews say not to listen to the bad review, because that person had clearly not read the instructions.

The only way I see for millions of humans to come out of this pandemic alive is for many more millions to get the vaccine.  A person can choose not to get vaccinated.  That's their right and I respect it, but if in a year or two we are out of the pandemic, it's because of the vaccine and no other reason.  

[doc henderson]

so the level of education that would make someone an expert, is well above my pay grade.  I would re-read the article, and it explains where this went off the rails.  I have a general idea of how viruses and the immune system works.  It is great that someone recognized the similar sequences and considered it... but those folks deem it theoretically very unlikely and virtually impossible. The majority of front line workers are more trained to do stuff.  I have told many nurses I work with, to their faces (with a smile on mine) that they are all just moms that know how to start IVs.  So they know better but when their kid is sick with a cold, they still want an antibiotic.  It takes years to really brainwash a person to the point of making them irritating.    .  The sequence would have to result in a protein that after all the things that make a long string of amino acids coil up into a ball that then still looks close enough to the other protein, that an antibody made for the virus can attack, the placenta.  There are unintended consequences even in nature.  like getting cold and the immune response in some people will cause the pancreas to be damaged causing type 1 diabetes in kids.  It is sad, and makes us vulnerable that we know so little since this is a new virus.  People do not know what to believe, and go with an emotional response.  So I guess if we thought that the virus caused infertility, would everyone start wearing masks and socially distancing.  I have no concerns about this, and if I am wrong, it will be over 1 in a million.  what is the death rate of the virus?  I think the odds favor getting the vaccine.  It is like not wanting to drive, cause the airbag might spontaneously deploy.  In ten years we can look back and see what is what.  

[doc henderson]

The "fact" I get from the 60% not taking the vaccine, is that front line workers are also susceptible to propaganda despite their level of education, and sadly a small percent of them may be dead or permanently harmed from this disinformation.  so the 60% number is a fact, that does not make the infertility thing a fact.

[JuanChair]

so the level of education that would make someone an expert, is well above my pay grade.  I would re-read the article, and it explains where this went off the rails.  I have a general idea of how viruses and the immune system works.  It is great that someone recognized the similar sequences and considered it... but those folks deem it theoretically very unlikely and virtually impossible. The majority of front line workers are more trained to do stuff.  I have told many nurses I work with, to their faces (with a smile on mine) that they are all just moms that know how to start IVs.  So they know better but when their kid is sick with a cold, they still want an antibiotic.  It takes years to really brainwash a person to the point of making them irritating.    .  The sequence would have to result in a protein that after all the things that make a long string of amino acids coil up into a ball that then still looks close enough to the other protein, that an antibody made for the virus can attack, the placenta.  There are unintended consequences even in nature.  like getting cold and the immune response in some people will cause the pancreas to be damaged causing type 1 diabetes in kids.  It is sad, and makes us vulnerable that we know so little since this is a new virus.  People do not know what to believe, and go with an emotional response.  So I guess if we thought that the virus caused infertility, would everyone start wearing masks and socially distancing.  I have no concerns about this, and if I am wrong, it will be over 1 in a million.  what is the death rate of the virus?  I think the odds favor getting the vaccine.  It is like not wanting to drive, cause the airbag might spontaneously deploy.  In ten years we can look back and see what is what.  

Let me try to address your post in order. 

In regards to that specific article only. I have reread it 3 times now and still come to the same conclusion.   I understand where you say it went off the rails.  Where they claim its theoretically impossible due to the different genetic codes. But yet further down they say its still possible because they do not yet know. As the old saying goes thats learned in college, a theory is still just a theory until its proven or dis-proven.    

Quote from the article:

Even Wodarg, in his petition, writes "there is no indication whether antibodies against spike proteins of SARS viruses would also act like anti-Syncytin-1 antibodies.   Offit admits that we don't have all the long-term safety data we'd like on the vaccines."  

So they give us this long article stating why its basically impossible for the vaccine to cause infertility then add a disclaimer near the end that they do not have all the safety data on the vaccines so anything is possible.  Thats why I said it came off as propaganda to me.  Again I'm only referring to this particular article. 

I'm of the personal belief at this time that the vaccine does not cause infertility, but in time we will see if either of us is right.  It wont mater to either of us as we are past having children and I only brought it up because so many people down here think it does.
 
You said:

"The majority of front line workers are more trained to do stuff. I have told many nurses I work with, to their faces (with a smile on mine) that they are all just moms that know how to start IVs."

Down here even in the rural pueblos we have small rural clinics and los enfermeros (Nurses) that work them are all very well respected. They are required to attend what is called reoccurring training several times throughout the year so they are up to date on everything from bacterial infections, disease, treatment, basic medications, hygiene, delivering babies and so much more.   They have to be able to stand in when there is no rural Doctor available.    It sounds like our rural nurses are better educated in medical practices than yours.  One day I will go over to our rural clinic and take a few pictures to show you what our rural clinics look like inside and out. I think you will be impressed with how modern and equipped they are for being out in the middle of nowhere.  I'm  adding that to my things to do list. 

On a side note, if anyone here was ever to tell one of our nurses that all they were was a mom who knew how to put in an IV (even in a joking manner) if the Cartel guys heard of it, they would pick that person up, pistol whip them breaking their jaw and then asking them who needs a nurse now.   The one thing you never do in these rural areas is talk down to or disrespect others, especially a teacher or a nurse and not expect the consequences.  

Like you said, in ten years we can look back and see what is what but Id like to keep researching to find out sooner rather than later.  I'm not one to go with emotions but rather facts and information backed up with data.  

thanks for your response, I look forward in sharing the pictures of our rural clinic with you soon.  

[JuanChair]

The "fact" I get from the 60% not taking the vaccine, is that front line workers are also susceptible to propaganda despite their level of education, and sadly a small percent of them may be dead or permanently harmed from this disinformation.  so the 60% number is a fact, that does not make the infertility thing a fact.

I think the propaganda thing can work both ways and we are all susceptible to it to a degree.  I made it clear that regardless of the fertility issue I just thought it was rather a very high number of 60% who refused for personal reasons.  We can argue (figuratively speaking) It either means the propaganda is really working or or we have a lot of self thinking people.  Time will indicate which one we have. 
As for permanent harm or death from the disinformation, well thats on them for making such personal choices based on personal beliefs.  Statistically I think these 60% nurses we are talking about have a much higher chance of dying in a car accident on the way to work than of the actual virus if in fact COVID has a 98% survival rate. 

[doc henderson]

WOW.

[Jeff]

THIS topic is being turned into something it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE. KNOCK IT OFF. Who am I talking to? Anyone that can look within themself, and then ask, Self... do I really want to come in here and try to debate this with Jeff, lose, then end up getting a forbidden warning emblazoned across my browser when I try to access any of the Forestry Forum?

[Ianab]

WOW.

That's the level of misinformation that this thread is trying to counter. The whole "Alternative facts" sort of narrative. Where one internet post by an "expert" is suddenly taken as the truth.  
It's frustrating. Vaccinations started today in NZ, with the Health Dept workers that are going to be giving shots to the Border and Quarantine workers giving each other the first doses. 

The numbers of people willing to take the vaccine can be skewed by how you ask the question? 
"Will you be first in line to get the jab"?  will give a very different answer to "Will you get the shots later one once a few other people have?" Most of the 60% that said No to the first question will line up for the 2nd option. A bit like no one wants to the first wildebeest that crosses the possibly crocodile infested river. Once the first bunch get across safely there is a stampede.  :D
This I can understand, especially with the disinformation that's been going on, and is a common response locally. "Yeah, I'll get the jab, I just don't want to be first".  The first group getting the jab are Health Dept, military etc that probably have it in their employment contract. 
They've been working for a year trying to keep the virus out, so them being vaccinated can only make their job easier, and the rest of us safer until the main vaccine roll-out gets done over the rest of the year. 

[Stephen1]

I prefer to disregard when one expert comes out against something, because he's an expert and knows better than 10,000 other experts.  Why take his word on an issue over the 10,000 others that disagree.  It's like looking for reviews on a product you're thinking of buying and deciding not to buy it because one person had a bad experience.  Very often you see the bad review, but then the good reviews say not to listen to the bad review, because that person had clearly not read the instructions.

The only way I see for millions of humans to come out of this pandemic alive is for many more millions to get the vaccine.  A person can choose not to get vaccinated.  That's their right and I respect it, but if in a year or two we are out of the pandemic, it's because of the vaccine and no other reason.  

I disagree with the last statement. A pandemic ends when the virus runs out of hosts.