Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[pigman]

My stepdaughter, mid 50s, had her first Pfizer shot Friday. Saturday her legs were swollen  and very painfull.  Sunday her feet turned blue and her husband took her to emergency room thinking she had a blood clot from recent hip surgery. After tests it was determined that the probable cause was the covid shot and was advised not to take the second shot. She us home now and doing fine.

[Ianab]

Apparently even one dose of the Pfizer gives about 80% protection, the 2nd is a booster to get to ~95%. So hopefully she gets decent protection from the single dose. 

[sawguy21]

We just got locked down again for at least three weeks due to a spike in cases after being on the verge of a cautious return to normal. :-\ Apparently people in my age group are eligible for the first shot sometime in April but so far not dates are being made public, it is very frustrating. I just want to get it over with.

[Andries]

Ontario will also see more lockdowns as the third (or is it the fourth?) wave rolls in. 
Sawguy21, this next wave is a variant of the first and is more harmful to young folk than the previous virus.
A doctor told me that the odds are 1 in 5 of death, if us "older" folks get a bad case of the Corona. I'm starting to think that distancing and masks are the new normal - that getting past this is not in the cards. Putting it behind us may not be possible for a long long time, if at all.
Is this "Debbie Downer" thinking? I don't think so, it's just me trying to be adaptable to the changing reality around me. 

[Ianab]

Putting it behind us may not be possible for a long long time, if at all. Is this "Debbie Downer" thinking? I don't think so, it's just me trying to be adaptable to the changing reality around me. 

Not enough people have been vaccinated yet to put a lid on the spread of infection, still lots of folks out there that can catch and transmit it. Yet some are assuming that because the vaccinations have started, or they personally have had the shots, that it's all over. This has lead to an upswing in the number of cases in many countries. It's realistically going to take most of 2021 to get most of the population (of the world) vaccinated.

We aren't under any lock-down / distancing / mask regulations here, but the border travel is heavily restricted / mandatory isolation etc, and realistically that will be staying in place for most of this year. Vaccinations have started here, but probably another 6 months to get to everyone that wants the shots. Until then there is a risk of more flare-ups of the virus.

I'm optimistic, but realise it's not over yet.

[Bruno of NH]

I had my first shot today Pfizer. 
I almost didn't get it.
I can't wear a mask it gives me panic attacks. 
I get to the place and have the first appointment. 
There are already 60 people and coming in fast.
I started having a panic attack . I had to go into survival mode to get the shot and get out of there.

[Southside]

The Amish community in Lancaster County, PA has seen a decrease in cases to all but zero and they don't follow the mask / distance rules within their community. They also don't have the internet or TV at home.  Correlation? 

[Ianab]

More likely that they don't frequent crowded bars and restaurants etc? 

If no one in your "circle" has the virus, then you wont catch it, and if you mostly keep your interactions within that group, it's low risk. 

[Roxie]

The Amish stopped church and social gatherings and schools for one month last year, and then they just went back to their lives. 

They seldom seek medical attention and I haven't heard of a single individual getting tested for covid. If someone has a bad cold or flu they doctor from home, and even if people died they handle that from home as well. 

Who would know?  My Amish are in a county that is next to Lancaster. 

[brianJ]

More likely that they don't frequent crowded bars and restaurants etc?

If no one in your "circle" has the virus, then you wont catch it, and if you mostly keep your interactions within that group, it's low risk.

Amish are outside a lot where aerosols rarely transmit.   The kids go to their own Amish schools where no other students attend.    Amish don't need to alter their life.

[Brian_Rhoad]

The Amish in Lancaster County are around non Amish just as much as Amish people. Their daily life isn't much different than the non Amish in that area. A lot of the Amish have jobs that require them to interact with other people. 

[Roxie]

The Amish in Oxford just had a huge mud sale (auction) and there were a lot of English people there. They are mystified that all the auctions held by the fire companies were canceled last year and this year. 

They are conducting business as usual. 

[Ianab]

Social situations do seem to have the biggest chances of spreading the virus. Even during our strict lock-down essential businesses including supermarkets were open (and busy). But there were no outbreaks traced to supermarkets. 

I suspect that the Amish aren't immune to the virus, but their lifestyle simply makes it less likely they will catch it, or pass it on. The larger outbreaks here were centred around a restaurant, a pub, a church, a school and of course a rest home. If you can avoid those places, your risk is a LOT less. 

[gspren]

My nearest neighbors are Amish, we are York County which borders Lancaster County but with the Susquehanna River separating. Last fall the Amish husband got sick and tested positive but recovered and neither his wife or any of the 6 kids got sick, husband and wife in late 20s age wise. He said he knew of others that got covid but none really bad.

[Southside]

My point is that clearly there is a population of folks who interact with everyone else at work, stores, etc, do not follow social distancing, masks, no weddings, no church, etc and if anything they have a lower reported rate of Covid than the general population.  One would think that if Covid was to be passed to any single member of the Amish population within a church from an outside interaction then it would spread amazingly fast among the population given their disregard of "the rules".  

This virus is so dangerous that Canada is being locked down again, and people are loosing their liberty, business, etc - yet this unique sub group, that can be identified, demonstrates just the opposite of what "the science" claims.

One must ask why, and I am asking why.  

[Ianab]

This virus is so dangerous that Canada is being locked down again, and people are loosing their liberty, business, etc - yet this unique sub group, that can be identified, demonstrates just the opposite of what "the science" claims. One must ask why, and I am asking why.  

Agreed. There seem to be activities that are higher risk than others. Going on a cruise ship = high risk for example. There are some that might appear high risk, but in fact aren't (going to the supermarket for example). So some of the lock-down measures might be a "blunt hammer" approach?

It's more about refining the "science". We know the virus gets transmitted person to person, but sometimes a case won't pass the virus on to anyone, not even close family. Another case can spread to 10 more people. What's the differences? I'm just theorising that the Amish folks aren't big on parties / nightlife / travel etc, which seem to be when the large transmission events occur. 

With the low case numbers here, and the success at actually eliminating the virus (several times), we have a better picture of the person to person transmissions (in ~99% of cases the transmission has been traced person to person). So it's interesting to compare with the Amish figures / actions, as it might allow better fine tuning of control measures. They are doing "something" different from everyone else, what is it?

[Roxie]

Folks keep telling you that the Amish routinely interact in larger groups on a regular basis as part of their lifestyle. Most people would, given the fact that it's their only entertainment.

Church numbers for Amish is over 200 people counting children. The mud sale was over 500. Amish young people in Rumspringa age have groups that number in the hundreds as well, and that is a weekly gathering that lasts from Friday night to Sunday morning. Every wedding and every funeral is attended by hundreds as well. They have Sunday night "singings" indoors that last four hours of church groups plus visiting friends and relatives.

They are not isolated from the English either. They have businesses, use taxis, are very active in volunteering at the firehouses and they shop in local businesses, and go to restaurants. 

They travel frequently by the bus loads to visit other Amish events and relatives in Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio and New York. 

They don't vaccinate anyone either. I know of instances of stepping on rusty nails and getting fevers and very sick but they only use herbal medicines and they recover. 

Southside is on to something here and it's a legitimate puzzle or we've been sold a bill of goods. 

[Roxie]

Upon reflection let's talk about what they do that's generally different than our lifestyle. For instance, they are outside (unmasked) for hours each day. Hitching up the team, hanging laundry, working in the yard or garden. Field work with a team of horses without a cab over. No air conditioning and gas or wood heat. No electric and no sitting down until the end of the day. Children walk to school. 

If vitamin D is a factor in fending off this virus, it sure would be interesting to test their blood levels against English levels.

They drink only raw milk and make their own butter and yogurt. Their diet is very vegetable oriented and they fill a sandwich with everything except the sink. They make their own bread and treats and can everything. Meat is local and they buy only from Amish raised hogs, chicken, turkeys and beef. They rely heavily on venison to feed their family. Most do their own butchering. Outside processed food is very limited. Their fruit is locally obtained too.

Y'all feel free to jump in if I've missed anything.

[brianJ]

Upon reflection let's talk about what they do that's generally different than our lifestyle. For instance, they are outside (unmasked) for hours each day. Hitching up the team, hanging laundry, working in the yard or garden. Field work with a team of horses without a cab over. No air conditioning and gas or wood heat. No electric and no sitting down until the end of the day. Children walk to school.

If vitamin D is a factor in fending off this virus, it sure would be interesting to test their blood levels against English levels.

They drink only raw milk and make their own butter and yogurt. Their diet is very vegetable oriented and they fill a sandwich with everything except the sink. They make their own bread and treats and can everything. Meat is local and they buy only from Amish raised hogs, chicken, turkeys and beef. They rely heavily on venison to feed their family. Most do their own butchering. Outside processed food is very limited. Their fruit is locally obtained too.

Y'all feel free to jump in if I've missed anything.

Has very little to do with what they eat.    It is all about aerosol transmission.   Wind and UV rays make it nearly impossible for that to happen outside.

[mike_belben]

i touched every filthy diesel pump from NJ to miami and sat on those same toilets through the peak of covid outbreak without getting it.  my wife got it and i still kissed her goodnight, never got it.  i only wore a mask a handful of times, the south isnt into that forceful stuff. 

youre gonna die of something, get busy living before that something shows up. we still shake hands out here. im not letting this non sense take away my humanity. look up all the parasites you can catch if you want to really be scared of something. 

[Roxie]

Has very little to do with what they eat.    

Harvard studies and most doctors would disagree. 

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/nutrition-and-immunity/

[Southside]

Roxie -  You are correct for those that work in the farming or timber / lumber industry, but quite a few also work in RV manufacturing and other similar settings, yet the case count isn't there.  As you demonstrated the community still engages in social gatherings, a party by any other name, community events, and typically live in large family units.  They shop at Wal-Mart, use modern transportation such as trains when necessary (and approved), so the exposure is there.  

Along the same lines, why have the homeless who live in very poor conditions, have little in the way of sanitary measures, and often have comorbilities, and don't eat well, also not suffered from the devastating impacts that are only prevented by removing ones liberty?   

[hacknchop]

I live in what has become a predominantly Mennonite community and work with and grade lumber for them regularly. I am around them regularly and know the elders and leaders in the community and what I am curious about is how you think you know whether or not they have contracted the virus when they do not recomend testing in other words what are your numbers based on ? Just asking??

[21incher]

Well my wife and I got our second  Pfizer shot yesterday.  We both have the headaches back that lasted about 2 weeks after the first and are just feeling tired and not right today. The area I got my shot feels like Mike Tyson was punching me in the arm all night and hope it let's up soon. I think tomorrow will be a better day. Glad to be able to hang out with the grandkids in 2 weeks. The worst  part for us was just the stress from anticipating what the worst case side effects could be for my wife with sjogrens but luckily she didn't have any bad reactions. Back to living life. Being a hermit wasn't  bad though,  got a lot done in my shop. 

[21incher]

Bruno if you have a problem  with  masks ask if they have the plastic face shields that are also acceptable.  I saw several at our location yesterday.