Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[Jeff]

Every 10 feet in the hall we sat in to wait the 20 minutes before we could leave were signs that said:
"Please respect other's privacy while taking selfies."

say_what

This was a medical center.

[kantuckid]

In todays NYT's theres an article that details what to expect from the shots reaction wise. Being a person with chronic seasonal allergies I skimmed through it.
 First off, it said there is no research that says people like myself should avoid the shot other than if we have an allergy to the vaccines contents such as poly glycols and a couple other commonly seen ingredients that carry the goodies. 
As for 2nd shot reactions, research shows it ranges from 52%+ for Pfizer to 82%+ for Moderna with arm soreness, joints, headaches and fever as the common themes. 
If you had/have a reaction it's saying you immune system is working. If you have no reaction your in the minority and by far but doesn't mean there's an issue either. 

I began to read another article about "what I'm allowed to do" if I've had both shots and it became so bogged down with crap about things like "will I be around people who are shouting, etc." I stopped reading. I dislike sweating the small stuff in life. 

My wife is wanting to rebel on mask wearing since having the shots but the signs are up so I dutifully wear mine as does she with me getting to hear about it each time... :D

[Paul_H]

I have not seen an satisfactory reason why those who have had their shots are required to continue wearing masks. In Canada there is a kerfuffle over the elderly in "care" facilities still be locked down and forbidden from any kind of normalcy such as going outside or embracing loved ones even after they received all their vaccinations. Is there any factual medical science behind the continued isolation and wearing of masks ?

I can post the links if needed

[barbender]

The loneliness that this disease is forcing on elderly nursing home residents and the mortality that results from that is difficult to put a number on, and I think modern medicine tends to brush it to the side. I realize they are trying to keep people from getting sick, but you also can't make it so people want to stop living🤷🏽‍♂️
 My wife went and got her first shot 3 days ago. Something about her job qualified her to get it. She felt fairly crummy for a day, but she also has a sinus infection and allergies so it's kind of hard to tell what was causing what. I can go get a shot too, first I'm Native and second Indian Health Services is trying to get everyone that resides on or around the reservation vaccinated, whether Native or not. They want to stick everyone😊 I'll probably go do it this week, I really hadn't given it much thought because I figured I wouldn't qualify for a good while yet, and I basically live a socially isolated/quarantine life anyways🤷🏽‍♂️😁 That's just how it is for loggers😊 

[doc henderson]

the whole thing has been so politicized.  a former president was trying to get things open, and now it seems it is a sin to do anything that would make that seem right.  my comment is political I know but that is why no one wants to error on the side of opening things up and then get the blame.  with 2 distinct sides, there is always someone to point the finger.  I still wear a mask in a store even though KS dropped the mandate.  I am in the public eye as the medical director. 

[Old saw fixer]

     I only wear a mask to go in a store or restaurant where I WANT to buy something or eat a meal.  I don't wear it in the parking lot, putting gas in the vehicle or driving down the road.  I got tickled one day in Costco when an older gentleman working the checkout asked me how I liked my mask.  He won't do that again, I have a habit of telling it the way it is.

[kantuckid]

I get tickled from some of the homemade masks I've seen in Walmart. One guy who stocks shelves has this bandito style homemade cloth mask that looks so nasty it turns me off royally. Hangs below his chin and has the look of cloth that has lived far beyond it's time. I saw an older couple who had masks obviously sewn up by Momma from her cloth stash. They say the cloth ones are not so good but what do I care.
 
When we watch the evening so-called TV news from DVR recording I blip on past the how many got covid, how many got covid shots and the rest of the covid statistics as it's far beyond useful information and worn out mentality to look- reminds me of watching my odometer while driving?  :D

[Roxie]

I do think that a large part of the resistance to getting the vaccine right now is the fact that nothing changes after you are immunized. The social distancing is still required?  Why get a shot if nothing changes?

Personally I know a woman that needs to be in a nursing home with dementia, but her daughter won't place her because of Pennsylvania no visitor rules.

[Andries]

. . .   Why get a shot if nothing changes? . . . . 

Well . . . . after the second shot, your chances of NOT getting a trip to the ICU are 92-96%
or are you talking of everyone else, and not yourself?

[Paul_H]

Roxie is saying why get the vaccine if the heavy restrictions remain even to the vaccinated. It's the same question many have asked.

[doc henderson]

you are still protected more, even if the government does not change the rules.  when the numbers drop, then eventually the powers that be will realize it.  patience grasshopper.  

[firefighter ontheside]

I will keep doing what the CDC recommends.  I will wear a mask inside a public place, because although small, there is a chance that I am carrying the virus and can spread it to someone who has not been vaccinated.  I understand that the vaccine is not like a shield in Star Trek.  I have to contract the virus for the antibodies to repel the virus.  I have switched from wearing N95 masks to wearing cloth or surgical masks.  These are more about protecting others than myself.  We just had my inlaws over for Easter and before that, my parents were in my house.  That hasn't happened for at least 9 months.....someone else in my house.  All but the kids are vaccinated.

[Paul_H]

Yes, the vaccine is not foolproof.

[Ianab]

Pandemic isn't quite over yet.. The vaccine "probably" protects you, but there is still a chance you could catch the virus, and pass it on, to others that aren't vaccinated yet, can't be vaccinated, or haven't got full protection from their shots. 

It's not a huge risk, but if you want the numbers to drop off quickly (so all the restrictions get lifted), act like it's still spreading.  US is still reporting ~50,000 cases a day, although death rates seem to be decreasing. Most of the really vulnerable folks have probably had their shots by now? But even seemingly healthy / young people can end up in ICE (or dead). Just a much lower percentage.  

The pandemic wont be fully over until a significant majority of the population becomes immune, so the virus isn't actively circulating. Not there yet. 

[Paul_H]

I think Doc answered it best in reply 2279

[Roxie]

This "spreading it even though vaccinated" goes against everything we have believed prior to this. I had mumps as a child but I could work in a mumps factory and not get sick. I had the polio vaccine and who knows if I have ever been exposed and my immune system fought it off?  I sure didn't spread polio after my vaccine. 

It's perfectly reasonable to question what is going on here. This just doesn't compute! 

For the record, I wear a mask in any location that requests it. I am following social distancing when requested. Once I get my second shot, I will still do it, if requested. So what exactly is the vaccine accomplishing?  

[doc henderson]

after thirty years of vaccination beginning at a certain age, (or you cannot go to school), prevents a pandemic (polio, small pox).  this variant came on a year ago and no one was immune or vaccinated.  we still get an occasional polio case, but not much to worry about, unless you are that case.  In ten years we will know all about this and will be better able to understand and control it.  with so many unknowns, leaders do not want to stick their necks out, except for themselves and their families.  
lets hope the mutations do not require yearly seasons and vaccinations.

[Bruno of NH]

I'm still not feeling great sore throat and headache. 
I don't know if I'm going back for the second dose if it makes you sicker.

[doc henderson]

everyone is different.  you are prob. 65% good now, but how long does it last?  we do not know.  second dose gets to 90% and unlikely to be critically ill.  The virus may kill you so compare to that.  it is of course your decision.  

[Ianab]

This "spreading it even though vaccinated" goes against everything we have believed prior to this. I had mumps as a child but I could work in a mumps factory and not get sick. I had the polio vaccine and who knows if I have ever been exposed and my immune system fought it off?  I sure didn't spread polio after my vaccine.

No vaccine is 100% effective. But it works when applied to the population as a whole.

What it needs to be is about 90%. That way the disease is very unlikely to infect anyone, as most of the population is immune. Think how unlikely it is for 4 or 5 cases to transmit without one of the cases not finding a vulnerable host. If that happens the chain is broken, and the "outbreak" dies out. Patient 3 gets better (or dies) without infecting anyone else, and there is no case 4 or 5. 

I think with measles the number of immune needs to be about 80%. If it drops below that then that virus has a chance to find enough new victims to cause an outbreak. And that can be the occasional vaccinated person as well, where the vaccine wasn't fully effective. Measles and Polio still exists because there hasn't been a big enough effort to wipe it out in 3rd World countries, so it still pops up occasionally even in countries where it shouldn't. Smallpox is effectively "extinct" because there WAS a big international effort to wipe it out. 

One of the Anti-Vax arguments is "But no one gets Polio / Measles any more, so we don't need the shots". The reason that hardly anyone gets it is because "most" of the population is immune, so even non-vaccinated folks would VERY rarely be exposed. If you don't meet anyone with the virus, you don't catch it, so you don't pass it on. If no one got vaccinated, that would pretty soon change.

As a side note, the person named as New Zealander of the Year for 2020 was a lady called Siouxsie Wiles. She is an interesting character, with long and bright purple hair, very recognisable, and very different to the stereotypical scientist. But she is also very good at explaining things in ways "normal" people can understand, while also being an actual professor of microbiology. I think info from her and Dr Ashley Bloomfield played a large part in the success of the virus response here in NZ.
Siouxsie Wiles named New Zealander of the Year | New Zealand | The Guardian

 

leaders do not want to stick their necks out, except for themselves and their families.

It was a big gamble for the NZ Govt to impose a strict lock-down early on. If it had been a "false alarm", or hadn't worked, they would have been out of a job pretty quick. Luckily it's paid off (both medically and economically). There were questions asked of course, with comparisons to Australia that quelled their first wave with less restrictions. Then they got into a 2nd wave and let if get out of control by not bringing in another lock-down fast enough. They did get a lid on it eventually, but it took some pretty heavy measures to do it, and they ended up with a lot more cases per capita than NZ. They still did very well on the global comparison though.  

[doc henderson]

Medical folks get immunized for hepatitis B.  it takes 3 shots and then you have to get antibody titers checked, and possibly more shots.  it is too early to know if covid can be wiped out before it mutates enough to start again next year.  If it does, then each year we will need the next modified vaccine.  how long the immune response lasts is yet to be seen.  Is it the same for the vaccine, and having the disease?  It is a hard sell to say you might still get it, and even spread it, but at least with the vaccine you are less likely to die.  This is why if you nerdy doc explains a test result with you, and you shoot back an analogy, and you hear "sort of but not really".  things are complicated.   It is hard to get people on board when we do not really know what will happen yet.  We rely heavily on the experience of other viruses and vaccines.  had this hit 70 years ago, we would not have had this vaccine yet.  We would not have even identified it by now.  we could not do gene DNA/RNA sequencing.

[Roxie]

I sincerely appreciate your explanation of the difference. Thank you doc!  

[JJ]

My wife has a coworker who got the first vaccine shot a week ago.
He has just recently tested + for Covid, now my wife is out of work for 10 day isolation due to being a contact.

I thought after getting the vaccine a + test for Covid would be normal (!?).   Am I wrong?

      JJ

[doc henderson]

a nasal swab relies on the virus (bits and pieces) be present in the nose.  the antibody test looks for antibody in the blood.  it can be sent off and differentiate between antibody from the vaccine and from the virus.  You are not well protected early on.  it takes time for the biological process of your immune cells contacting the vaccine and developing immunity.  best 2 weeks after 2 doses, or at least that is what has been looked at.  many cases of getting it in the middle of the vaccine regimen.  

[firefighter ontheside]

There is a difference between testing + for antibodies and testing positive for Covid.  Which did they test + for.  After vaccination you can test pos for antibodies.