Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[doc henderson]

thanks JJ.  i will read the article MC.

[Ianab]

Just sharing some information from a vaccine expert.  Interested in your thoughts @doc henderson

https://www.bitchute.com/video/b87VjAYDXS0g/

I think he's dragging out the ideas that Sweden and the UK first tried to implement. Try and protect the more vulnerable and aim for natural herd immunity.  How did that work out?
This guy points out some of the errors in the first video. 
Why Vanden Bossche Is Wrong About COVID Vaccines
Basically : More infectious mutations are already happening, before the vaccine, and stopping vaccinations now will probably encourage that to continue, because the virus is still replicating in the community. More cases = more chance of a mutation. Having 1/2 the population vaccinated will probably result in a mutation that can beat the vaccine spreading. If enough people get the vaccine around the world, the virus wont be replicating, so there won't be any new mutations. 

[Southside]

Until there are.

[Ianab]

Until there are.

There already are, BECAUSE the virus is still actively replicating. The most worrying currently is the Indian one, which seems more infectious, but hopefully not more dangerous. The variants aren't coming from countries that have suppressed the virus (Australia / Vietnam / NZ etc). They are coming out of the countries that have had the most cases. India / Britain / Brazil etc. 
 
If this guy was correct then variants that could evade control measures like hand sanitiser / masks / social distancing would crop up in say Australia. They haven't, because there isn't enough replication of the virus going on. 
So my argument is that if we followed this guys advice, not only would there be more cases (and deaths), but it's MORE likely that new strains would develop, that might even re-infect survivors of the original virus. If the virus can mutate enough to beat the vaccine, then it can certainly mutate enough to defeat naturally acquired immunity too. Pretty soon we have Covid-21. 

[Gary_C]

I listened to the entire presentation from Vanden Bossche and find a few holes in his theories. First one is that the antibodies created by the vaccines are "bullies" as he describes them and they push away all of a persons natural defenses and thus you will be defenseless against mutations that may come in the future. We already know that T Cell and killer cell immunities can last for 17 years or more so it's pretty far out thinking that antibiodies from vaccines can block your natural defenses plus considering that it took man made manipulation to create this virus in the first place and now we are to believe that natural mutation of this virus can create a super virus that evades all our immunities. It certainly has a chance of happening but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the chance.

Second hole in his ideas is what I have been told by my science guy is there is an absolute natural rule about viruses in that they will always mutate to survive but as they mutate they may become more infectious but less virulent. In other words the virus may spread faster but the effects will be less serious, not more.

And finally the link that Ianab provided pretty much discredits Vanden Bossche's ideas also. So I'm not going to lose any more sleep over the guy's ideas. 

[kantuckid]

I'm not with the Bossche guy- I think he's behind the facts as they are now. 

It's not just political- NYT's headline today talks about the W.H.O. is arguing with the CDC over masking-saying they should be worn indoors by vaccinated persons. As we've seen before it's become a pick your favorite scientist affair?  :D 

My knee doc's clinic building/hospital is owned by U of KY and still require masking to enter or be seen there. Main campus is the same thing. 
  

[doc henderson]

the process of natural selection will promote that one in a million mutation that confer and advantage.  it may only be better attachment and replication, but no guarantee that it will not also be more virulent.   advantages in reproduction make that variety more prevalent and fit with you assertion.  I watched the first third of the presentation and felt he was not saying much of consequence.

[Claybraker]

I watched enough of the Bossche guy to hear his claim of work on the Ebola vaccine when I remembered I had used up the last of my aluminum foil Memorial Day, and with 4th of July knew I'd better grab a few rolls, maybe some baby back ribs, possibly a beef brisket. What's everybody cooking this weekend?

[21incher]

All I can say is Passing out your medical records and sending people door to door to try to get people to vaccinate is going to be a big problem and I bet will probably result in more deaths. Another big waste of taxpayer money. Now Pfizer says you will need the booster they are developing and the CDC says you won't the next day. Sounds like Pfizer is looking to keep the profits up now that the original vaccine demand is dropping.

[Don P]

I suspect we will need booster shots before this is over with, if it ever is over with. 90+% of covid deaths now are in the unvaccinated, there are hotspots in areas with low vaccination. Those groups will keep cooking this thing into new and stronger strains.

[Southside]

Respectfully Don, unless this thing has been engineered to do otherwise it will become weaker as new strains emerge. 

[Don P]

Mutation is random, if it always got weaker we would be zucchini by now  :D. Natural selection favors the strong or better adapted random mutations. After millions of years we still have the common cold and flu that kills, I'm not following your logic.

[JJ]

It is not good natural selection strategy to kill your host.
Much better just infect the host but leave enough energy the host walks around shedding more virus, more progeny that way.

the EAB will die eventually for this reason.

         JJ

[Don P]

Ah, I see, I'm giving it evil intent rather than simple survival  :D. 

[Larry]

One of the side effects of not getting the vaccine is you might not keep your job.

Mercy Hospital which operates in NW Arkansas and parts of Missouri said last week if their employees are not vaccinated by September 1 they will not have a job. 

[Southside]

If you think about it we would have done well to keep up with the evolution of zucchini.  In 90 days a 1/10 of an ounce seed is able to conquer 1/4 of an acre of land while growing out of a crack in a rock and only receiving 4 oz of water.  At the same time the plant leaves behind 50 lbs worth of offspring which by the second generation are able to take over a small state and force people to lock their vehicle doors around fair time for fear of being filled up with said zucchini.  

In human terms that would be the same as a 6 year old single handily conquering the old Soviet Union during summer recess... ;D

[Ianab]

One of the side effects of not getting the vaccine is you might not keep your job.

Mercy Hospital which operates in NW Arkansas and parts of Missouri said last week if their employees are not vaccinated by September 1 they will not have a job.

In a hospital situation I can see the case for that. They are dealing with people that are already sick, and most vulnerable to Covid. The vaccine isn't 100% effective, and some people (especially sick ones) can't have it. 
If someone went in to hospital for an ingrown toenail, and caught Covid there from a staff member, and died, who get's the blame?  
If everyone working there is vaccinated, then it's both less likely to happen, and the hospital lawyers can claim "We did everything practical to prevent this happening". 
As for the virus losing effect over time, that can happen, if a mutation is both easier to spread, and less dangerous, then the less harmful variant would eventually take over.  Or it may be that everyone that's vulnerable to the virus has eventually caught it and either died, or survived and now has some immunity to it. Either way it's less of a problem, and becomes like the seasonal flu. Did the flu virus lose strength, or did the population develop more resistance? Maybe both? This would happen over time with Covid, but it could take years, and a lot more dead people to get there. 
The most "successful" diseases are arguably the ones that hardly kill anyone.  Common Cold / Chicken Pox etc. They are super common, and mostly just a nuisance. If they were Smallpox or Polio level dangerous there would be more effort put into controlling them. 

[kantuckid]

I seriously doubt that a virus, even THE corona virus makes choices per above?  :D
I will say that my local farmers market it seems the Zucchini is indeed taking over as are cukes-lots of both, a few maters and beans and no sweet corn as yet.
I have little doubt that eventually the US military will mandate corona vaccines once it gets full FDA approval. The more immediate question is what happens to make that happen?
My wife's been working with one sister to clear out an old family home. Yesterday we were looking through old WWII letters from her uncles to momma in KY. Also looked at their discharge DD214's and saw vaccinations for Typhoid, Tetanus and other stuff I forget.
Have you seen the TV mention of the Swedish man who nearly died from a smallpox vaccination as a child in Sweden then later after immigrating to the US he was being mandated to get it again. It went to the US Supreme Court and the famous judge-Oliver Wendell Holmes issued an ultimatum that he should be forced to get it again.
 I am a vaccinator but truth is our US government has a dismal record on such matters.
As far as them knowing if I've been vaccinated-they already do know, get over it huh? ;D 
 
My wife and I have both had chickenpox as kids. We got the first shingles vaccine some years ago at a local Rx. Last week we got the newer, improved Shingrix vaccine which requires a booster later. Cost $35 each for this shot. I have no idea why the local clinics nor health dept.'s don't do Shingrix since its such a nasty thing for seniors who get shingles? Maybe doesn't kill you, just makes you wish you were dead? Meanwhile Medicare pays much of the vaccines cost. I guess it's like our eyes, ears, teeth thing where most insurance leaves it be? The entire medical "thing" is a cluster of sorts.  

[doc henderson]

not to be too political, but the government never does a good job, of taking care of individuals.  once they get it in their mind (used loosely and figuratively) that something is for them to do, it is hard to get it out and they are not looking at the individual, but the majority (or minority) of the country.  the diseases that have been for the most part irradiated typically had mandated vaccine.  small pox and polio.  many of the bad reactions in medicine end up not being from the active ingredient.  such as red dye # X in a pill, or a preservative, or the horse serum protein in the original penicillin that caused grandmas to pass down from generation to generation, "if you ever had a rash on PCN, if you take it again, you will probably die".  In the 80s we saw HIV, and did not understand it well for at least 10 years.  we did some crazy stuff back then.  The biggest reason for the mitigation was to slow it down so that Hospital did not lock their doors, and society was on their own.  Can you imagine trying to break into a hospital, and being arrested, or seeing a Doc with a side arm or taser.  If you have done disaster training, that is what we are trying to avoid, and did!  We barely saw influenzae or RSV this year, so the mitigation helps.  the non vaccers brag that they did not get the vaccine and did not get the disease, but that is part luck, and the fact the majority did get the vaccine.  back when we were less sophisticated, and used live attenuated virus, the non vx kids got vaccinated from the kids who shed the virus at school.  If studies show that a treatment or vaccine reduces mortality from 50% to 0.0001% the government and docs (public health) will be for it.  although the one who suffers from the treatment, may have not been one of the ones to die from the disease.  My buddy the pediatrician fired all of his families that would not get vaccinated.  Is he a mean pediatrician?  no, he did not want the kids with cancer on chemo, sitting in a room with a kid with a rash, that turned out to be chicken pox.  the cancer kid will die.  just like the military, we need leaders to look at the big picture, and avoid (if possible) the political lens.

[doc henderson]

@kantuckid yes we refer to those choices made as Mother Nature.  

[kantuckid]

I'm seeing Springfield, MO in the news as they are swamped at hospitals with covid of recent. I live in a far more rural region than that SW corner of MO but many of my people are from Joplin area nearby-back when.
 I looked at the NYT's state/county  vaccinations list which is daily updated and Greene County, MO has a better vaccination rate than my own KY county-other than seniors over 65 which is sort of similar in both spots. I guess it's about Delta there but not near me. 

[doc henderson]

it is about vaccination + folks that had the disease.  so if they (the area) got off easy the first go round.  if the delta is more contagious then eventually everyone gets vaccinated or the disease.  I am still hearing virtually no serious hospitalizations in vaccinated people.  I think areas hit hard (friends and neighbor's dying, or spending a month in the hospital) are more motivated to get the vaccine.  out area is more back to normal, but we still wear masks in the hospital.  I now have a contact derm. on my face from something in the masks.  good thing I wear a mask to cover it up.

[Stephen1]

I suspect we will need booster shots before this is over with, if it ever is over with. 90+% of covid deaths now are in the unvaccinated, there are hotspots in areas with low vaccination. Those groups will keep cooking this thing into new and stronger strains.

I keep hearing this about new strains. It seems to me that the new strains have come out of the countries that were 1st to run trials on the Vaccines. Did the vaccines cause the new variants? Is that why they are not getting weaker? It is not running it's natural course. 

[Nebraska]

It's just doing what respiratory  Corona viruses do....years ago we had a custom respiratory  Corona viruse vaccine made up for a small cattle feedlot. To keep the vaccine working every couple years you had to re isolated the viruses and make a different  vaccine.  Just was part of the game.  The bug kept changing over time..

[Don P]

The Delta variant came from India. Large mostly unvaccinated population.