Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[Stephen1]

NZ has 90 and that isn't even enough...

NZ is Aiming for 90% of eligible folks, which works out at about 75% of the total population.  Currently it's only 45% fully vaccinated, and 75% partly. That isn't enough, it merely slows the spread a bit.destination country doesn't care. Their aeroplanes, their rules.

Yeah, I knew 90% wasn't vaccinated in NZ. Just another example of mixing up the message. :D

We are over 80% fully vaccinated in NB and a lot of cases from mainly unvaccinated who don't follow guidelines in large gatherings. Those in hospital right now are not fully vaccinated, but yet 'fix me, I'm sick'. Not that it isn't your right to refuse a vaccine, but is being real sick nice?  Not everyone not taking a vax will get real sick if they get COVID, but how do you know? Lots who did get it bad, and asked themselves why they didn't get vaxed days before they died.

And there even more who got Covid and have said no big deal. 

[OlJarhead]

there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to.  I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.

Sadly, this is patently false.  I love you man, but there are many studies showing the benefit of Ivermectin re: Covid-19
The Research Is Clear: Ivermectin Is a Safe, Effective Treatment for COVID, so Why Isn?t It Being Used?
Setting aside the site itself, go down near the bottom and see links to articles doing just that.
Now the real question:  will this post be deleted as well?  I've had at least 2 nuked.  Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked....

[WDH]

I am not aware of any of your posts being nuked Doctor OlJarhead.  

[Paul_H]

There was one that posted this link

Horowitz: The country with the best data shows infection rates higher among the vaccinated - TheBlaze

I don't know what happened to it Old jar head

[jb616]

sadly politics are trying to use the facts they want to an advantage.  there remain unknowns, and we may all change recommendations as more info comes to light.  It is hard for people (including docs) to navigate the bull and the politics.

Thanks for what you do @doc henderson and thanks for your informed input. I am on the fence for the vaccine as I have had the flu shot every year with no issues but there is just too much misinformation on both sides right now for me to make a decision. I might have to make one soon as my liberal employer might make it mandatory (which activates my internal push back mechanism). 

[Lostinmn]

there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to.  I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.

Sadly, this is patently false.  I love you man, but there are many studies showing the benefit of Ivermectin re: Covid-19
The Research Is Clear: Ivermectin Is a Safe, Effective Treatment for COVID, so Why Isn?t It Being Used?
Setting aside the site itself, go down near the bottom and see links to articles doing just that.
Now the real question:  will this post be deleted as well?  I've had at least 2 nuked.  Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked....

I am curious as to which studies you are referring to showing the benefits.  While I am certainly no doctor, I have read quite a bit on Ivermectin studies.  Most of the references people point me to end up being preprint studies without peer review like the one in Egypt by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar which was subsequently pulled due unspecified ethical concerns including plagiarism, cloned records and other suspicious raw data.

I find often when I ask where they get the information when someone is suggesting it is effective, it ends up being second accounts, or they give very vague I saw it online or Facebook, or old info such as the the Australian study by Leon Caly which to my limited no-medical trained mind did reduce replication of the virus invitro (test tube) but was at levels far beyond those typically used for humans and only indicated further study was recommended.

I'm looking for sold evidence to refer people I care about to who are expressing interest in using Ivermectin, but there is so much bad or old info flying around which is poorly sourced. For example I still run into reference for support to the meta analysis by University of Liverpool which showed it worked, now appears to have been rejected by Andrew Hill, who lead it once they removed trails with indications or risks for fraud and bias.  In fact some researchers are suggesting a level of data inconsistencies that meta analysis without data confirmation my be limited in value for the time being.
Other meta analysis such as Ivermectin for the Treatment of Coronavirus Disease 2019: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials | Clinical Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic found little support for it being effective.  

I understand there are several current studies including ACTIV-6, and even one by our local university of Minnesota and many others so maybe some better answers will be forth coming, but as far as sold peer reviewed, double blind, random treatment and control group studies. I haven't been able to source an conclusive evidence that stands up to review and shows Ivermectin is a effective treatment at the current time for COVID.

I'm concerned for a few people I know who are interested in using Ivermectin sourced online and/or via animal veterinary resources and worry about how much and the type they may take.

I of course defer to Doc's much greater medical knowledge and am eager to hear his thoughts on this as it doesn't currently seem like a good idea for people to be using it to treat covid and even more so as a preventive. 

Sincerely,
Still unclear in MN  :-\

[Brian_Rhoad]

A friend of mine had Covid last winter. He couldn't get over the chest congestion and cough. He went several months with doctor visits and medications but couldn't get rid of the cough. Someone suggested Ivermectin. He went to Tractor Supply and got a tube of it. Followed the directions and took some. Within a few days his chest was cleared up and the cough was gone. The reason the medical people don't want to recommend it is because you can get it for less than $10 at a farm supply. The crooks in the medical field aren't getting their cut. 

[beav]

Followed the directions??
Is he a horse?

[Paul_H]

Ivermectin, ?Wonder drug? from Japan: the human use perspective

Nay! not just for horses,works for humans but sometimes ridiculed by jackasses. :P

There are few drugs that can seriously lay claim to the title of 'Wonder drug', penicillin and aspirin being two that have perhaps had greatest beneficial impact on the health and wellbeing of Mankind. But ivermectin can also be considered alongside those worthy contenders, based on its versatility, safety and the beneficial impact that it has had, and continues to have, worldwide—especially on hundreds of millions of the world's poorest people.

[OlJarhead]

Thanks guys.  Who knows what happened.  No worries ;)

COVID Outbreak Sparked by Fully Vaccinated Patient Challenges Vaccine-Induced Herd Immunity Theory

Scary stuff.  You all know where I stand I think but do you want me to post this stuff?  I got's milling to do!  lol but I do have stuff I can share for those interested.

[OlJarhead]

Eurosurveillance | Nosocomial outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a highly vaccinated population, Israel, July 2021
Meanwhile...I'll post some of these....

[Brian_Rhoad]

Followed the directions?? Is he a horse?

The directions tell you how much to take per the weight.

[OlJarhead]

there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to.  I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.

Sadly, this is patently false.  I love you man, but there are many studies showing the benefit of Ivermectin re: Covid-19
The Research Is Clear: Ivermectin Is a Safe, Effective Treatment for COVID, so Why Isn?t It Being Used?
Setting aside the site itself, go down near the bottom and see links to articles doing just that.
Now the real question:  will this post be deleted as well?  I've had at least 2 nuked.  Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked....

I am curious as to which studies you are referring to showing the benefits.  While I am certainly no doctor, I have read quite a bit on Ivermectin studies.  Most of the references people point me to end up being preprint studies without peer review like the one in Egypt by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar which was subsequently pulled due unspecified ethical concerns including plagiarism, cloned records and other suspicious raw data.

I find often when I ask where they get the information when someone is suggesting it is effective, it ends up being second accounts, or they give very vague I saw it online or Facebook, or old info such as the the Australian study by Leon Caly which to my limited no-medical trained mind did reduce replication of the virus invitro (test tube) but was at levels far beyond those typically used for humans and only indicated further study was recommended.

I'm looking for sold evidence to refer people I care about to who are expressing interest in using Ivermectin, but there is so much bad or old info flying around which is poorly sourced. For example I still run into reference for support to the meta analysis by University of Liverpool which showed it worked, now appears to have been rejected by Andrew Hill, who lead it once they removed trails with indications or risks for fraud and bias.  In fact some researchers are suggesting a level of data inconsistencies that meta analysis without data confirmation my be limited in value for the time being.
Other meta analysis such as Ivermectin for the Treatment of Coronavirus Disease 2019: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials | Clinical Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic found little support for it being effective.  

I understand there are several current studies including ACTIV-6, and even one by our local university of Minnesota and many others so maybe some better answers will be forth coming, but as far as sold peer reviewed, double blind, random treatment and control group studies. I haven't been able to source an conclusive evidence that stands up to review and shows Ivermectin is a effective treatment at the current time for COVID.

I'm concerned for a few people I know who are interested in using Ivermectin sourced online and/or via animal veterinary resources and worry about how much and the type they may take.

I of course defer to Doc's much greater medical knowledge and am eager to hear his thoughts on this as it doesn't currently seem like a good idea for people to be using it to treat covid and even more so as a preventive.

Sincerely,
Still unclear in MN  :-\

Did you follow the link?  Go to the bottom?
Did you know Merk is producing a NEW Covid-19 drug....that is sounding more and more like a new version of Ivermectin?
It's all real but here's the thing, if the CDC and FDA admit Ivermectin or Hydroxychloriquine works as a therapeutic than the emergency use order for the VAX becomes null and void....and you couldn't use the non-approved vax's -- and even Pfiser's new one may not be in production yet -- something going on there.

[Texas Ranger]

So now we can go to the County Agent for medical advise?

[OlJarhead]

So now we can go to the County Agent for medical advise?

I sure wouldn't.  But I'd go to a doctor and if I wasn't happy (as in, they say something like "take Tylenol and go to emerg if you stop breathing" but don't prescribe anything for the pneumonia) I'd get a second opinion.  Just like we've always done!  Lucky for me, the 2nd opinion had be better in two days.  Thank god.

[Claybraker]

So now we can go to the County Agent for medical advise?

County Health Department, around here they do restaurant inspections and tracking social disease outbreaks. ie, don't eat there, don't, well just don't...

[Ianab]

Now the real question:  will this post be deleted as well?  I've had at least 2 nuked.  Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked.

If you noticed the title of this thread, it's FACTS.

Many of the pages you have linked to were remarkably free of facts. There are other threads active where those "alternative theories" can be discussed. 

P.S. I wasn't the one that pruned the thread, but it's likely to happen again. 

[doc henderson]

so i have asked my infectious disease doc, and he says no evidence for hydroxychloroquine.  I do not or do not know any doc in the field that makes any money on medications we prescribe.  the drug companies used to bring us lunch to listen, but there was no guarantee we would prescribe their drug.  Usually we did not cause the new drugs were too expensive, and if just as effective, use the old stuff.  If i really thought it worked, i would tell you all.  the stories of "i was sick, but i took this med, and was better in two days", are called testimonials and are not used in medicine.  when i was a resident, a drug rep took us out for a steak dinner, and had us "help with advertising"  by drawing a picture with crayons, on paper and turning it in.  we all got a check for $100.  the next day a teaching attending who heard about it, walked around clinic and called us all whores!  you guys think your training was bad.  he was an ass.  anyway, now it is illegal for any doc to make a profit from prescribing drugs.  we do not give a [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better].  we use the best drug for the job.  sometimes if covered by insurance, we may use a more expensive combination drug, for an elderly patient to increase compliance.  we do not make any money off the drugs.  if the tractor supply ivermectin worked, we would recommend it.  it came out that some docs were hording some for themselves, and that was deemed unethical, like insider trading.  aspirin was used for pain and fever, and it was terrible for that.  but a good antiplatelet drug.  you had to take 24 pills a day to achieve anti inflammatory levels, and the side effects were awful.  the baby aspin, is no longer used for babies as it caused ryes syndrome and liver failure if used with certain viruses.  it is rare that a drug, will have many uses unrelated to each other.  the vit. C gurus promoting it for covid, are the same as promote it for everything else under the sun.  the more it helps fight a virus, the more inflamation, and that is what makes you feel bad.  but people say they feel better sooner.  anyway, if ivermectin is shown to work, I will let you all know.  there is not much harm in taking it, unless you avoid other treatments shown to work, and die from covid.  god bless.

[doc henderson]

i will find out when i can what is in the merck pill.

[Southside]

I believe Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor, I don't think the Merck pill is in that class. However the daily pill that Pfizer is testing is also a protease inhibitor, which sure makes one turn their head.

As far as facts go, there isn't a single source of the truth here, this isn't settled science, so if an article names it's sources and they can be verified then the article is being factual. One can dispute the findings, but that doesn't make it fictional. 

Big tech is now censoring anything that doesn't go with the official narrative of the moment. That isn't our job and  it is something I will fight against. I think everyone here knows where I stand when it comes to oppressing anyone, be it I agree or completely disagree with them.

Information came out today that Vermont has the highest jab rate in the US, and is spiking in cases, same scenario as Israel. 

Something is very, very, wrong. 

[Gary_C]

Something is very, very, wrong.

I would not say that as I believe we are getting closer to answers but what I would say is that vaccines are not going to be the only answer. I think treatments are going to play a more important role in the future. I remember that we were always told in the past that we have had limited success with vaccines for viruses and that may prove to be still true. The problem is that viruses mutate (learn how to be successful) and vaccines are always one step behind.
Here is but one good analysis of where we stand with treatments. 
Scientists hope they're closing in on a cure for COVID-19

[doctorb]

I agree 100% which doc henderson.  Docs do not profit from prescribing meds.  

Those that continue to tout the "suppressed" data on the effectiveness of Invermectin and other "cures" have no answer for the FACT that unvaccinated people are hospitalized and die at a much higher rate than vaccinated people.  There's all this back and forth about acquired "natural" immunity versus that obtained via the vaccine.  The issue is the risk of hospitalization and death from the infection in the unvaccinated, not whether a person survives Covid and has better immunity (temporarily) that than supplied by the vaccine.  As I have posted before, the number of people who are unvaccinated and have acquired Covid a second time is quite real.  Just ask Lamar Jackson of the Baltimore Ravens.  

So, as a doc, I would ask that you weigh the facts about hospitalization and death from Covid in the unvaccinated population versus the conflicted and politicized sparring about acquired immunity, people reportedly dying from the vaccine, opinions of how Invermectin is "just like" Merck's future antiviral pill, and other such distractions.  Look at your risk, not at some web site telling you what you already believe....that you're being mislead, guided down some corporate profit path, and being lied to every second.  If you do not accept that the people dying and being hospitalized from Covid are, for the vast majority, unvaccinated, then nothing anyone can say or show you can change your attitude toward the pandemic and the positive effects of the vaccine.it ain't perfect, that's for sure, but it has saved countless lives.  

I agree with Gary that the vaccines will not be the only answer.  We have no vaccines for HIV/AIDS. We found good treatments.  The same could happen here.  We are still in the middle of this very dynamic infection. But, please listen to the reports about who gets sick, who gets hospitalized, and who dies from Covid now, and as important, who doesn't.  Scrutinize and analyze all you want. That's a good thing.  But none of the arguments I had read posted here can overshadow the issue that the vaccines are protective, though not preventative.  But their results are quite important and markedly impressive versus the unvaccinated population.

[Gary_C]

Here is a good comparison of treatments. Ivermectin or Molnupiravir

Here is the open access paper referenced in the above video. Drugs Shown to Inhibit SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 Disease: Comparative Basic and Clinical Pharmacology of Molnupiravir and Ivermectin

[PoginyHill]

Information came out today that Vermont has the highest jab rate in the US, and is spiking in cases, same scenario as Israel. 

That is true. But there are still about 100k people unvaccinated in the state. And it is that population that accounts for most of the hospitalizations; The report I linked below says 69% are unvaxxed. In the northern counties (where I live) the percent of unvaxxed is higher than the state as a whole and we account for a disproportionate hospitalizations and deaths.

While our case count has jumped, hospitalizations per capita are the lowest in the nation. 37 Covid patients in the hospital (13 of which are in ICU) from a population of 550,000.

DFR October 5 -- Web Version (vermont.gov)

[OlJarhead]

Now the real question:  will this post be deleted as well?  I've had at least 2 nuked.  Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked.

If you noticed the title of this thread, it's FACTS.

Many of the pages you have linked to were remarkably free of facts. There are other threads active where those "alternative theories" can be discussed.

P.S. I wasn't the one that pruned the thread, but it's likely to happen again.

This is the very definition of politics.  I've posted a lot of 'facts' they just aren't yours....there is an old expression:  you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
In fact, one poster admitted to not even watching the nurse testify despite trying to dispute what was in it.  I'm sure most haven't bothered to check the source of what I posting.  They see Gateway Pundit or NGO or whatever and move on....failing to see the underlying study which is factual.
Things like Israel being over 85% vaxxed but having a massive covid spike of the vaxxed -- nothing to see here.
The UK's own government posting data that shows massive spike of the vaxxed (but we watch BBC instead of the actual government stats)....
India's smashing of the covid crisis with the use of Ivermectin (and Doxycycline (sp), Hydroxychloriquine, Zinc and vitamins).....and then Merck's own new drug which is suspiciously similar in what it does (actually sorta like exactly) to Ivermectin which they invented and got a Nobel Prize for becauase of it's effectiveness in Humans in treating parasites, not to mention it's safe use for over 40 years and insanely cheap cost) but is something like 700x more expensive and use touted as a new way to treat covid....while Ivermectin is doing just that.
Hydroxychloriquine?  Yes it works well too -- but not in someone who's already gotten rid of the viral load two weeks later and is suffering from pneumonia.
I could go on but I've learned one thing:  those who want to believe something else, won't bother to explore opposing points of view, nor opposing facts.