Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[Mooseherder]

 I suspect many facts are yet to be found out.
If the facts are going to be discounted as opinion then just the facts doesn't add up.
These threads should be combined if we care about facts.

[doc henderson]

I read the article about the renal failure patient.  she is not on dialysis yet. I assumed that when they said failure.  she must have poor functioning kidneys and will either need a kidney, or hemo or peritoneal dialysis.  It is not convenient to go 3 times a week to hook to a machine for 3 hours, or fill you abdomen with fluid to drain later and replace.  so unless I am missing something, she will not die without the kidney.  it has always been difficult to get a kidney.  you have to show that you will take medicine and show up for appointments.  

[21incher]

I have had headaches since my second shot but I was told the only way to report them was to use that NY passport app and I won't use any tracking app from the government. My doctor has it in my file that I only allow him share my medical files with a list of on file doctors in the agreement we have.  He did a bunch  of routine bloodwork along with extras and all that came up was higher than normal  bilirubin and vitamin D levels since my last bloodwork. With  no way to report  problems anonymously I am sure many are under reported by people like me that do not trust the government with medical records. I am hoping the vaccine will wear off soon and headaches will go away. Definitely not getting a booster. 

[Ianab]

I suspect many facts are yet to be found out.
If the facts are going to be discounted as opinion then just the facts doesn't add up.
These threads should be combined if we care about facts.

Agreed, we don't know all the facts, there's gaps in our knowledge, and sometimes the facts (just like the virus) have changed. 

But we shouldn't fill that lack of knowledge by passing off wild speculation, random foo and actual lies as facts. There are other threads for that. I called out a post the other day claiming that 63% of the recent Covid deaths in the UK were vaccinated, therefore the vaccine was bad. When you looked up the actual numbers it was 0.6% of the deaths had been vaccinated. Which indicates the exact opposite. The person posting that here genuinely believed it to be true, but I really question the motives of the web page they linked to. They had certainly put zero effort into verifying the info they were posting. 

Folks that desire to see harm come to those that make different choices than they are despicable human beings and they know it.

I don't want to see anyone come to harm. Although I have a lot less sympathy for the ones knowingly spreading disinformation to boost their web page traffic / radio show listeners / political chances. 

[Claybraker]

Agreed, we don't know all the facts, there's gaps in our knowledge, and sometimes the facts (just like the virus) have changed. 

But we shouldn't fill that lack of knowledge by passing off wild speculation, random foo and actual lies as facts. There are other threads for that. I called out a post the other day claiming that 63% of the recent Covid deaths in the UK were vaccinated, therefore the vaccine was bad. When you looked up the actual numbers it was 0.6% of the deaths had been vaccinated. Which indicates the exact opposite. The person posting that here genuinely believed it to be true, but I really question the motives of the web page they linked to. They had certainly put zero effort into verifying the info they were posting

0.6% sounds way high. Best I can find from a reliable source here in Georgia through July 27, 2021 is 0.12% tested positive, 0.00285% required hospitalization, 0.00058% died among the fully vaccinated. The author states that is likely an undercount, I don't think it's off by that many orders of magnitude.
Delta flips the script, 01Aug2021 - by Amber Schmidtke, PhD - The COVID Digest

[Brian_Rhoad]

Here is the latest update from a local hospital.

[gspren]

  Wife and I got our 3rd (booster) jab this afternoon. I don't have the expertise or desire to do my own investigating so I choose to listen to medical people that I personally know such as my family doctor and a friends son that is head of pharmacology at our local hospital, they recommend me getting it. While I may not personally know our kind docs on here I am confident that they are as truthful with us as possible.

[Stephen1]

Brian, I have seen similiar #s north of the border.
What bothers me is unknow vacination status.
Can someone explain how it is unknown?
I was thinking here in Ontario we have quite a mass exodus to the southern states in the winter. Most of the "snow birds" were vacinated down south. when they got back here, our goverment has not recognized thier vacinations in the counts. I figured it was this group being called unknown, it would coincide with the 'vacine' wearing off.
now I am really curious about the  "unknown"

I read from 1 epdomoligist talking about the rules for vaccine trials.  "the vaccine is considered guilty until proven innocence"
If we have reported deaths after taking the vaccine. How long after does it not count against the Vaccine?
I have a rough time hearing take the vaccine because 1 death is too many from covid.
Isn't 1 death from the vaccine too many also?

[doc henderson]

If we could prevents all deaths, we would all live forever.  the thought is to reduce morbidity and mortality.  If we knew who was going to die, we could make and ethical argument, and give it to those people.  We do have a profile of those at risk and promote them getting the vaccine, they qualify for the monoclonal.  we need to get the antiviral meds started sooner.  I sure some could have a reaction to the vaccine and they may not been one that would have died from the disease.  the hope and belief is we are reducing the numbers of deaths and long term problems.

[Ianab]

0.6% sounds way high. Best I can find from a reliable source here in Georgia through July 27, 2021 is 0.12% tested positive, 0.00285% required hospitalization, 0.00058% died among the fully vaccinated. The author states that is likely an undercount, I don't think it's off by that many orders of magnitude.

Are those numbers a % of the total vaccinated population? If so they are probably accurate and actually suggest a similar thing. The UK numbers are a % of the deaths. 51,000 dead, but only ~250 of those had been vaccinated. So if you guess 30 million vaccinated, and 250 still died, then it's probably a similar %?  Several zeros in front of the % anyway.  If the vaccine did nothing, then you might expect the death numbers to more line up with the vaccination rates. If 50% of the dead had been vaccinated, and 50% of the population also, that might suggest the vaccine wasn't doing any good, and that's what the linked web page was claiming. Except it wasn't true. 


We know the vaccine isn't 100% effective, especially against the Delta strain, and vaccinated people have caught the virus here in NZ. But none of them have died, or even become critically sick so far. That doesn't mean some unlucky individuals wont in the future, but it seems very rare. Numbers here in NZ have suggested ~4% of the cases were fully vaccinated, 19% partly, and the rest had nothing. So again a very low % of the vaccinated population are getting the breakthrough cases.


But the main point was that the stated "facts" were out by two orders of magnitude, and suggested that being vaccinated could even make you more likely to die, rather than maybe 100X less likely. We can debate the exact numbers, because they are still being recorded. and if it turns out to be 50X or 200X, that's what it is. But the numbers aren't going to be out by orders of magnitude. 

[Ianab]

Isn't 1 death from the vaccine too many also? 

ALL vaccines carry a slight risk of side effects and even death. Pretty much every medical procedure has some small but measurable risk involved. Heck people have OD'd on Paracetamol before. 

But Dr's assess those risks every day. You can have this done to fix (XYZ), and there is only 1 chance in 5 million that you will die from the operation / medication / vaccine. Yeah, OK, those are pretty good odds. But people DO occasionally die during what's considered a routine operation, fortunately not very often, but it's happened more than once.

So when a new medicine is approved, it's not a matter of it being absolutely 100% safe. (Read the potential side effects of most medications). It's if the med is of MUCH greater overall benefit. Currently chances of dying from Covid is about 1 in 100. Chances of dying from the vaccine, 1 in 5 million doses. (local numbers). That's the odds I based my decision on anyway.

[Southside]

Once again the circle is complete.  What you just stated, combined with the complete lack of time examined results are exactly why jab mandates are so strongly resisted.

Remember DDT and abestos were considered safe at first too, until they weren't. 

[21incher]

I just read that scientists are finding the new merck pill for covid being rushed through FDA approval has serious safety concerns about  causing cancer and birth defects 

[newoodguy78]

Ian you mentioned reading the list of potential side effects for medicine. Is said side effect literature available for the vaccines being used?

[Ianab]

Ian you mentioned reading the list of potential side effects for medicine. Is said side effect literature available for the vaccines being used?

Here is the FDA's EUA fact sheet. Page 4 talks about possible side effects.
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
Your Dr should have that sheet, and be able to give you a copy of it to read yourself.  It's also includes how to report any side effects, and what the dangerous ones to watch for are.
The other vaccines will have some similar document available.

Edited to add, it's also got the list of Ingredients.  So no more of the "They wont even tell us what's in it". The long named "lipids" are basically oil/fat molecules that coat the mRNA particles so they don't break down before they can reach body cells and do their job. The last items are basically what's in a "saline" solution (salts and sugar). Beyond that, I don't have a degree in biochemistry, and wouldn't know a "(4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate)" from a blob of bacon grease. I do suspect they would look pretty similar though. 

WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS IN THE VACCINE?

The vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-
hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene
glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine,
and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium
chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

[Gary_C]

I just read that scientists are finding the new merck pill for covid being rushed through FDA approval has serious safety concerns about  causing cancer and birth defects

This is exactly the type of information that is based on speculation and rumor so is not necessary to post here. I do know what this speculation is based on and what was "read" is not right. 

1.  First being "rushed through FDA approval" is a good thing for something that is needed right now as long as the safety precautions are not bypassed and there is no evidence of that bypass happening.
2.  We do not and will not know about any safety concerns about use of the drug until the data is released and that has not happened yet.
3.  There is some speculation about certain classes of people being excluded from the trials that indicated there is some concern with those specific classes of people using the drug but I guarantee that if the drug gets approval, those same classes of people will not be included in the EUA. Specifically the two classes of people I believe are pregnant women (or rather persons if you are woke) and women that are breast feeding. So unless you fall in one of those two classes, your safety will be included in the studies reported to the FDA.

So enough of the rumors and speculation please.

[Walnut Beast]

Different strokes for different folks on drinking the Kool-Aid.  Not this kid. Didn't your mother tell you not to believe everything you hear 😂. Just watch all the commercials on tv and radio adds of class action lawsuits from different stuff from years ago that was so supposed to be so safe and so great. Now they are forcing you or boxing you in to drink the Kool-Aid. They say you are safe when you get the jab so why are they so worried about the people that don't get the jab 🙄🙄. Come on! The people in Vermont that were vaccinated and died had other factors so those numbers are not accurate! No! What about the other way of people that didn't get vaccinated and died! List it as a Covid death for sure! 

[21incher]

Merck?s COVID-19 pill could carry serious safety concerns, scientists warn | Fox News.

I know  many these days no longer want to follow science that disagrees with profits.

[Ianab]

The people in Vermont

Doesn't Vermont have the lowest Covid Deaths per population in the US? 

Wouldn't it be better to figure out what they are actually doing right? Maybe it's geographic, maybe it's social behaviour, I don't know. But that's a more productive line of inquiry. 

[Southside]

I am going to say no.

Expressed in percentages, 76% of Vermont Covid-19 fatalities were breakthrough cases. As of Tuesday, 88 percent of all eligible Vermonters (age 12 and over) had been vaccinated with at least one shot.

https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/

Same scenario as Israel.  

[Gary_C]

I know  many these days no longer want to follow science that disagrees with profits.

I don't like to read "click bait" articles that contain words like "could potentially" and "theoretically" so it's not necessary to repost them here. Those words do not indicate science nor facts.

[Roxie]

Gary, that's about three times you've told someone not to post information in this thread. You have no authority here so knock it off. 

A reminder we debate the point and not the person. 

Carry on. 

[SwampDonkey]

Just watch all the commercials on tv and radio adds of class action lawsuits from different stuff from years ago that was so supposed to be so safe and so great.

There are lots of lawyers with adds on US television to entice you to spend money even when many circumstances there is no case. Sure, a few are case worthy. But I have seen a pile of lawyer adds where the 'hog wash alert' goes off. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

I am going to say no.

Expressed in percentages, 76% of Vermont Covid-19 fatalities were breakthrough cases. As of Tuesday, 88 percent of all eligible Vermonters (age 12 and over) had been vaccinated with at least one shot.

https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/

Same scenario as Israel.  

The full story is, not fully vaccinated, elderly and they had some of the earliest shots, which means the antibody count has dropped. We have known for some time the efficacy of this vaccination falls over time. That info has never been withheld.

[PoginyHill]

Vermont is the green line toward the bottom. The other states are in grey.