Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[21incher]

I know  many these days no longer want to follow science that disagrees with profits.

I don't like to read "click bait" articles that contain words like "could potentially" and "theoretically" so it's not necessary to repost them here. Those words do not indicate science nor facts.

Gary I actually hold a patent on a piece of medical equipment used to control body temperature during heart surgery and do know the process and timetable of FDA approval our team went through. The reason  is to protect  patients and eliminate  liability by turning over every stone. All findings and documents are included in the approval. The timeframe cannot be shortened.  We have seen to shorten the timeline the CDC has changed the rules and that's  one of the reason 2 heads of the FDA resigned a couple weeks ago over. I also see not all original  documents are included in the Pfizer approval and immunity from lawsuits is still in place. The pharmaceuticals are the biggest contributors to the democratic  candidates and money is definitely at play here. Also why are we forced to be vaccinated and millions of illegals  are not? Money is made off each citizen vaccinated but not off liiegals.  

[doctorb]

This study is presented via a summary of its results, and investigates the risk of late heart disease and cardiac events up to a year after Covid infection, which occurred in both vaccinated and non-vaccinated patients.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-07/heart-damage-racks-covid-survivors-a-year-after-infection-study

[OlJarhead]

This study is presented via a summary of its results, and investigates the risk of late heart disease and cardiac events up to a year after Covid infection, which occurred in both vaccinated and non-vaccinated patients.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-07/heart-damage-racks-covid-survivors-a-year-after-infection-study

Thanks for that.
I've heard and read that this is a problem with the disease and the vax because of the spike protien.
Isn't it great that Fauci and his folks were funding the research to make this type of virus infect humans?  Thanks.

[Southside]

Gary, check yourself.  You were asked politely by Roxie, now you are being told directly by me, don't make it strike three on telling members what and where to post.  

[Roxie]

I sent the offending post, and thanks Southside! 

[Texas Ranger]

I wonder how many members are muttering "enough already"?

[Old Greenhorn]

I wonder how many members are muttering "enough already"?

Agreed. This was supposed to be a 'facts only' thread without debate, just useful information for those trying to know what is going on. That slowly crept into a debate about which 'facts' are really facts and which 'facts' are not acceptable. I thought discussion that would stay in the restricted zone.

[SwampDonkey]

Thanks for that.
I've heard and read that this is a problem with the disease and the vax because of the spike protien.
Isn't it great that Fauci and his folks were funding the research to make this type of virus infect humans?  Thanks.

I see no where saying the vaccine is as responsible as having been infected by COVID-19 nor is there a spike protein in the vaccine. Your body (cells) makes such a protein to cause an immune response. This protein in not in the vaccine. The cells get rid of the instructions once this response takes place.

[source is CDC]

[OlJarhead]

Thanks for that.
I've heard and read that this is a problem with the disease and the vax because of the spike protien.
Isn't it great that Fauci and his folks were funding the research to make this type of virus infect humans?  Thanks.

I see no where saying the vaccine is as responsible as having been infected by COVID-19 nor is there a spike protein in the vaccine. Your body (cells) makes such a protein to cause an immune response. This protein in not in the vaccine. The cells get rid of the instructions once this response takes place.

[source is CDC]

Hmmmm I stand corrected, a little search does seem to suggest the spike protein is generated by the body.  Perhaps I will check on this more but I need to do some milling ;)
The problem with facts is that people tend to believe what they believe and their 'facts' may not jive with what another thinks of as 'facts' and to add to that, 'facts' change with more time and research.
At one time SCOTUS claimed it was a 'fact' that a certain group of people were not human...later they reversed that decision (thank god -- and a good reminder that SCOTUS and facts are not always right)....
Bottom line, you may not like my facts, and I may not like yours but if we do more research when someone challenges us, we may learn there is truth in both of them ;)
Peace and love!

[Roxie]

In response to Texas Ranger and Old Greenhorn:  Whose facts?  Can you go back and try to sort out whose factual? The goal now is to maintain our civility. Forum rules apply and feel free to scroll past those you find un-factual.

[doc henderson]

Ok guys and gals, we are all friend here.  I have not delved into the data for Vermont.  It is funny cause I think that Maine next door has a poor vax. rate.  so in theory you have to look at the "big" picture.  It looks like they included people with one shot, and you are not considered fully vaccinated until 2 weeks after the second shot in 2 shot regimen.  so it sounds as though they are including anyone with a shot to be a breakthrough case even though the vax is not yet up to speed (body producing immunity as a result of the vaccine).  this is why we use premade antibodies for people at risk, early in the disease (10 days after onset of symptoms).  so in a theoretical state we will call Chicken, USA, where 100% of residents are fully vaccinated, then by definition, all deaths from covid will be breakthrough cases, what ever the number.  you would have to compare that to the number who would have died if not vaccinated.  maybe 10 die despite the vax, but 100 would have died if no residents were vaccinated.  
we also know now that the immunity lasts longer with a bigger gap between shots.  so we have a dilemma, do we give them 3 weeks apart to get people fully vaccinated sooner, or wait 3 months so the shot will last say a year instead of 6 months.  If there was a limited supply we would go to that, but in addition to saving lives, the goal is to keep hospitals functional.  so there is motivation to give them ASAP, and other reasons it may be good to spread them apart.  We are given the data in the prelim research, so the single shot gave a lower % efficacy, but if they studied it with 2 shots, it may have been the same as the 2 shot regimens.  
so the other ethical debate is, should we do 10 years of studies and in the meantime we do not use the monoclonal, vaccine, or antivirals?  It is a world wide pandemic.  we have lost 700K Americans.  we cannot go back and see how many would have died with no therapy.  There are those who may think that the vaccine kills more people than the disease.  I am not one of them.  I could be wrong, but i do not think so.  So yes, we got an emergency use authorization and sped things up in an effort to save lives.  did we rush or ram it through, yes by the traditional standards.  even in pediatric cancer, we will use unproved treatment with consent, if there are no other viable options.  and we hope for improvement, but also get information.  It is said there is no cure for rabies, but a few have survived, using cooling of the patient and immune globulin (antibody).  they had nothing to loose and the girl is alive with children with a few disabilities.
Drug companies are huge global corporations, and have done some bad things.  but for each money making drug, there are 10, 20 or a hundred that they invest money and time on, that turned out to be not efficacious. the huge machine that is there human assets were able to follow processes developed for other vaccines, and quickly come up with an option.  even if it took 10 years to approve, many drugs will have rare side effects no one knows about until it is used in a large number of people.  so we may still not know till it had widespread use.
Every very potent drug that works, has potentially sever side effects.  are natural therapies safe? yes, especially if they do not work.  Does vit. C help in the immune process, yes.  do most of us have enough to have immunity? yes.  do super high doses make it work better?  not that we can see.  Is there any harm in taking extra?  prob. not.  So supplements are considered a food and not regulated like a drug.  If they were, there would be fines and jail time for the promoters.  they are basically snake oil sales people.  the only harm is if you cannot afford them and you skimp on food and housing to fund there use, and or have a serious illness with a good therapeutic that you ignore thinking the vitamin from walmart will take care of it.  Some say that cancer treatment is poison.  It is, and the art is to kill all the cancer cells, and minimize damage to the good ones.  It is a personal choice.  any drug around for a while will be researched, and changes may be made to increase the safety profile.  yes the new drug will have a patent and cost a bunch of money.  then the company can be financially and HR ready for the next big thing.  I am sure they hire ruthless CEOs that keep the company afloat.  they have teams of lawyers to fight lawsuits.  There are many examples of energy companies, doctors and others that get in a bind, and commit fraud or other crimes to keep their boat afloat or get greedy.  overall the folks that work for these companies are good people like us.  the electric company is being sued in California for the wildfires.  I say to them, pull out of California and they can try to survive with no electricity.  It is easy to criticize big corporations, but none of us want to be without them.
I could live without Facebook.  I do order stuff from amazon, especially in light of the past 2 years.  the world has gone crazy.  uptick in crime and psychiatric issues.  4 of my providers out of 10 has needed time off for family crisis in the past year.  Godspeed all.  

[SwampDonkey]

'facts' change with more time and research.

That's how science works. Every scientist I have put trust in over the years have stated that very fact. Even folks that are behind the scientific process and give lectures world wide, but not scientists themselves, will state this.
Although mRNA vaccines are new in the sense that we have never used them in such a grand scale before, they have been studied for 30 years. They are not a new invention. ;) Lots of people out there only giving half the story and our brains are great at filling in the gaps when it is orated or written in certain ways. Believe me when I tell you their are folks that know this and there are books written about this for study. The first time I saw such a book, was in an office on a shelf, as thick as a Webster's dictionary, pages as thin as those in a bible. :D

[WV Sawmiller]

   My wife and I went and got our 3rd phizer booster shot yesterday at our local health dept. Other than a sore arm when I'd roll over on it it I'd never know I'd had it. 

[doc henderson]

on a bright note, this is what we do well, and sort of encompasses what we are talking about.  early on transplant was considered unethical and a sin against nature.  Dr. S son 30 year old, 1 week post heart and liver transplant.  has walked 100 yards, is shown taking a walk outside.  he has lived in quarantine in the hospital or the past 3 months awaiting a donor.  Dr. S and his wife have kept the 2 year old daughter during that time to minimize the possibility of infection.



 

[Roxie]

Oh! I love that bright note!  Thank you!  ♥️

[Southside]

Are the "facts" defined as only being the official narrative? The one that can't keep it's own narrative message straight?

Have you seen the recent "movies" put out by the White House? The one where Biden got his booster and yesterday where he, Yellen, and bankers were discussing the debt ceiling? They are literally being filmed on a movie set with a B grade mock-up of the Rose Garden in the background. I say B grade because yesterday there were spring flowers growing behind Biden. 

Facts and narrative are not the same, and there is nothing wrong with questioning credibility. 

[Southside]

Glad to see that photo Doc, oh and Maine and Vermont are as next door to each other as Kansas and South Dakota are.  ;D

[doc henderson]

He is a great doc, and takes good care of his family.  He is from Poland originally, and loves and appreciates this country and the opportunities it affords.  WV the booster cam about from research showing longer immunity if the shots are spaced out, the second (done too soon), gets immunity for the short term.  We are all still learning.  I feel like the number of reads and responses show this thread to be valuable to this community, and thanks to all the admins that have worked to keep it going in the general section and not restricted.

[doc henderson]

I remember driving from Albany to Vermont, and to Maine all in about 5 hours.   they are in the same region and seemed to me to have similar populations/people.  

[doctorb]

The study that I linked to regarding heart disease and Covid does not evaluate vaccination versus non-vaccination.  I believe the reason that seemingly important distinction was left out is because this is a large database study from a hospital organization.  There is no way within their records to account for patients that received their vaccination outside of their system (like via a state or county program). So people in their data bank may not have a record of receiving the vaccine, but may actually be vaccinated.  That incomplete data would muddy any comparison.   This explanation is my opinion, and not stated within the study itself.

[Southside]

Oh boy, to say someone from New York is the same as from Maine, well that would open a can of worms.  :D

[PoginyHill]

Oh boy, to say someone from New York is the same as from Maine, well that would open a can of worms.  :D

I would say Maine, Vermont, and NY are more alike than any of those are with New Hampshire. If the northern counties in VT could become part of NH, a majority would in a heartbeat. VT and NH are nearly identical on the map (although inverted), but couldn't be more different by any other measure. But in recent years, NH has begun to slide downhill. They'll have income and sales tax before too long, I think.

[doc henderson]

I lived in "upstate" NY, and visited Vt and Ma.  and the people I met were similar in the latter two,  I have never had a problem opening up a can of worms, however, as you know.  I still have great friends in NY.  I did not know that Vt. was so vaccinated, and that Ma is not as was mentioned here on the forum.  

[doc henderson]

our covid hospital numbers are dropping, as has been the case elsewhere, and the mean age is upper 40s, compared to last year, with a higher age.  Many of the elderly have died, or been vaccinated or never leave the house.  who know how many have died from untreated heart disease or cancer undiagnosed.  big uptick in psyc and violent deaths.

[Claybraker]

0.6% sounds way high. Best I can find from a reliable source here in Georgia through July 27, 2021 is 0.12% tested positive, 0.00285% required hospitalization, 0.00058% died among the fully vaccinated. The author states that is likely an undercount, I don't think it's off by that many orders of magnitude.

Are those numbers a % of the total vaccinated population? If so they are probably accurate and actually suggest a similar thing. The UK numbers are a % of the deaths. 51,000 dead, but only ~250 of those had been vaccinated. So if you guess 30 million vaccinated, and 250 still died, then it's probably a similar %?  Several zeros in front of the % anyway.  If the vaccine did nothing, then you might expect the death numbers to more line up with the vaccination rates. If 50% of the dead had been vaccinated, and 50% of the population also, that might suggest the vaccine wasn't doing any good, and that's what the linked web page was claiming. Except it wasn't true.


We know the vaccine isn't 100% effective, especially against the Delta strain, and vaccinated people have caught the virus here in NZ. But none of them have died, or even become critically sick so far. That doesn't mean some unlucky individuals wont in the future, but it seems very rare. Numbers here in NZ have suggested ~4% of the cases were fully vaccinated, 19% partly, and the rest had nothing. So again a very low % of the vaccinated population are getting the breakthrough cases.


But the main point was that the stated "facts" were out by two orders of magnitude, and suggested that being vaccinated could even make you more likely to die, rather than maybe 100X less likely. We can debate the exact numbers, because they are still being recorded. and if it turns out to be 50X or 200X, that's what it is. But the numbers aren't going to be out by orders of magnitude.

Yes. Readers Digest condensed version is 24 deaths out of 4.1 million fully vaccinated. Fully vaccinated is defined as at least 2 weeks after receiving the 2nd Mrna or the J&J. That was through July. Sources I follow expect that number to climb, hence the push for boosters. When I got vaxxed in April they told us then a booster was being looked into. That narrative hasn't changed, Delta with an R0 7 has changed some of the urgency.