Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[SwampDonkey]

Also be aware that the level of testing (the #'s of tests) is way lower in the US and Canada than in the UK and other countries. Remember the phrase: "stop testing and the numbers of infections will go down."? :D No I don't believe that quote literally. But it's reflected in all these charts we see.  Just asking, how believable are the 'charts' with low sample size?

And here is something for your consideration, strictly hypothetical.
Given: population is 800,000, 85% vaccinated.

Diagram shows % infections by vaccination status.





Combined total infected people by category.





Be careful in how the numbers are presented is all I need to say. :D

[firefighter ontheside]

From what I read, tromethamine can sometimes be used as a drug, but its main use is as a buffer solution to prevent changes in Ph.  From what my friend who works in pharma study, buffers that have already been proven as safe in previous study can be used to avoid having to do a whole new study on safety.  As suggested it seems most likely that they are switching buffers to help keep the vaccine more stable.  Pfizer's biggest problem has been the need to keep it super cold.  Perhaps that will not be as big of an issue.

[Hilltop366]

The Nova Scotia rates show a similar trend now that the vaccine rate is high at 77%  the number of break through cases have gone up but the unvaccinated cases are still much higher even though they are only 23% of the total population unvaccinated are 70% of cases from a 1 week sample in late October.

[doc henderson]

even though this is a difficult and charged subject.  I will point out the @doctorb made the 3,000th post and almost 100,000 views of the subject.  There is lots of emotion and I feel for all that lost loved ones either from the virus, vaccine or isolation and fear of going to the hospital.  I think in light of those considerations, we have all been decent to each other and supportive of opinions.  I appreciate the admin patients so this thread can continue.  hopeful it has brought information to many on all sides to this subject.  God bless.  Doc

[Stephen1]

Thanks to both Docs. I appreciate your comments and expertise and explanations.
I just disagree with taking my choice away.
I live in a very low covid area.
I know 3 people who have had covid. Mild medium and not at all.
I know of more problems from the vaccine than from covid. ( I know not facts right)
I know of 10 people that have had what I consider adverse reactions to the vaccine. 3 have died with in days of the vaccine. 1st or 2nd dose. 3 have vertigo which came after the 1st and or 2nd dose. My buddy is so bad that he lays in bed vomiting. It has been 6 months of suffering. The other 2 have been 3 and 5 weeks with vertigo. 4 have myocarditus and are different ages from 22 - 61.
Our minor hockey system in  and other minor sports in Ontario are not mandating the vaccine for particapation because of the myocarditus.
Our Premier ( bless him) is predicting he will lift the "Vaccine passport " in the new year.

This virus is never going away. Get used to living with it. Get our Hospital and Health care systems up to handle it.
My thoughts for the night.
Stay safe everyone.

[doc henderson]

thanks @Stephen1 .  it seems you meant vaccine, not virus in your comment?

[Ianab]

While I can understand some issues with virus mandates, I can see the reasons for them. In a hospital situation? Medical staff already have various vaccine requirements.  They have people coming in with multiple existing health issues, and an infected staff member isn't going to help. Vaccine only 80% effective? OK, that's 80% less risk. NZ is currently working though the exact legal situation there. On one hand there is the personal choice, but on the other is the legal requirement for a business to "Take all reasonable measures" to prevent harm to staff and the public. Is having your staff vaccinated to reduce the risk of infecting other staff and customers "reasonable"?. I can see that being tested on Court soon, but meanwhile 90% of the country has had at least one shot.

The legal precedents for "Public Health Orders" have been settled over 100 years ago in the US. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Stephen - Not doubting your friends health issues, but we don't know Anyone locally that's suffered any serious side effects. Minor stuff, everyone had some sort of reaction, and some even needed a day off work or school, but the expected stuff. Now saying that some don't have more serious reactions, but they seem VERY rare. That's just my experience anyway. We are also in an area that Covid hasn't spread AT ALL, most of us would prefer to keep it that way, but now accept that it's pretty much inevitable it will reach us. 

Myocarditis IS a rare but known side effect of the vaccine, usually mild (as far as that condition goes). It's also a known side effect of the virus, and occurs about 4X more often in Covid patients, then in the the young males that are most at risk from the vaccine side effect. That's the risk / benefit analysis thing again. 

[SwampDonkey]

Not seeing any reported myocarditis in this area. Not even sure if it is part of the reporting at all since those kinds of things are confidential. You would probably only hear it from family and close friends. What I do see once in awhile are deaths after being vaccinated, then infected. But later to find out they have cancer or major issues besides (among the big 5 Dr Campbell presented in a video) and old age a lot of times. But those are deaths from COVID.

On the vertigo thing, my mother has had it off and on for years. She gets a prescription and it's gone in 2 days. It's an inner ear problem, triggered by many things I believe.

[Gary_C]

Here is a very good analysis of the pandemic from one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration which has now been signed by over 60,000 scientists around the world, some of whom have been fired for their signing. Yes, it is an opinion piece but it is from the top experts in the world and yes it is over an hour long. So watch if you are interested or not.

What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

[doc henderson]

the most recent case of myocarditis I have seen, is post partum, not covid or vaccine related.  so it is a diagnosis causes by many medical issues.  I agree it is relatively rarely caused by the covid vaccine.  I think you chances of myocarditis, as well as clot related issues (PE,MI,stroke) are worse with the disease than the vaccine.  so fewer folks get the side effects from the vaccine than the disease.

[kantuckid]

I read an interesting article today's NYT's about Tyson Foods, the huge meatpacker that was vilified for their "keep on working" mandates (which didn't include masking mandates at the time) early on before vaccines were available but has more recently mandated vaccinations of their workers, allowing for religion and certain personal health issues. 
My personal take is that they did what kept them solvent and me fed while making even more logical choices lately. Reminds me of when OHSA kicked in and my work mates threw away their hearing protection after the company gave it out but didn't enforce actually using it. I suppose they do have federal contracts for supplying foods that went unmentioned in the article.

While anecdotal comments are interesting here, they are so far from scientific usefulness I'll not choose them for my decisions.

 As mentioned above- I too, appreciate the thoughtfully allowed admin's inclusion of certain political information herein as it otherwise makes impossible a realistic discussion of the topic. 

BTW, I'm seriously tired of TV news showing people getting stuck with needles and little vaccine bottles rattling along in medical factories. : Thank God for my remote and DVR.  

   

[SwampDonkey]

And getting over the COVID infection sometimes is never over. Lots of COVID survivor testimony from young people that said they have never gotten over it. Not a thing to do with the vaccine, at that point hadn't been available. Posted video of testimonies way back in the thread somewhere. ;D

[Chuck White]

I just don't understand "some" people, like a few of my relatives, and I'm positive there are others.

They absolutely refuse to get the COVID vaccination, but soon as the shingles vaccine was available, they were right out there getting it.

Now they go get this vaccine to relieve pain and some suffering, but won't get the vaccine that can keep them alive!

Guess you might just call this my "VENT" session!

[doc henderson]

with all the hubub.  when non vaccinated folks get sick and come to the ED,  they are quite proud of themselves until they test positive.  Then they look down and apologize.  We are nice and say it is your decision.  Then when we tell them to go home and isolate themselves, they cannot believe we do not have a fix for them.  there are risks and benefits to all sides. each individual should be able to decide for themselves with out pressure from either pro or anti vax "extremes".  there are humans that would prob. agree to the vaccine, if they had not already been bullied and dug their heels in.

[Paul_H]

there are humans that would prob. agree to the vaccine, if they had not already been bullied and dug their heels in.

I think that is fairly accurate along with a better track record for the treatment and more honesty about the side effect including death.

[Southside]

But those same folks who apologize had the exact same odds of getting sick had they submitted to the jab. So the logic makes no sense to me.

[doc henderson]

not the same, as the chance of getting very sick or dying is less.  Our community is about 50% vaccinated, and 9 out of 10 positive results, are non-vaccinated.  of course if 100% were vaccinated, then by definition, any + cases would all be vaccinated.   this is where the data was taken to make it look like the + cases were higher in vaccinated people.   with your logic, then 50% of + tests should be also be in vaccinated.  so you can still get a + test, i.e. get infected, but it is less likely, or the degree of symptoms is enough less, that they do not come to the ED for evaluation.  It is sad, as they are horrified when we tell them.  they ask what do we do now, and we say, not much, unless you qualify for the monoclonal antibody.  or if ill, in the hospital for steroids and antiviral.  Pfizer's new oral is supposed to be 94% effective.  I feel bad sending people home with nothing until they return so ill that they needed admitted, and then get the antiviral meds.  effective means lesson the symptoms and chance of dying.

[Southside]

Doc - not trying to arge with you on this but if you are sending them home, then they are not very sick, so the treatement appears to be the same for folks with either status presenting with the same conditions.  

[BradMarks]

Our numbers here have remained relatively constant when comparing hospital rates with vax rates.  Those hospitalized with Covid that are already vaccinated have amounted to about 20% of the total cases. Today, occupation rate was in a bold headline: 89% are not vaccinated. In smaller print, the number of active cases(considered still infectious) is way down. Maybe we've turned the corner, no wait, it's a circle game exercise. The merry go round keeps going around. 3rd dose, 4th? 5th? 

[doc henderson]

young people do better.  some go home on O2 with monitors, to come back when they need CPAP and then poss. ventilation.  old people die with a minor illness, some young people die of pneumonitis or complications of clotting and or inflammation.  still many vaccinated people who get it are not sick enough to know and or to come to the hospital.  there seems to be regret with some who get diagnosed and chose not to get the shot.  they prob. think we are judging, but we try not to.  i do feel it is each persons right to decide for themselves.  the prob. is if they make the decision based on BS, in either direction.  all good @Southside 

[doc henderson]

most deaths are 1 month after diagnosis.  so the disease progresses.  throw in a weak heart, and failing kidneys and there you go.  Just got word last night that a classmate died yesterday of covid.  Not close so do not know about underlying stuff.  61 seems old till you get to be 61.  I remember going to his 5th or 6th y/o BD party in grade school.  His parents owned the DQ in Concordia, Ks.  His dad was building a house up the hill from the DQ, and they lived in the basement while building the upper story.  He got shocked and died when Brian was in HS.  He has a twin sister. Becky.

[Paul_H]

So you have no other weapons in your arsenal to combat covid other than a vaccine? None?
Keeping all ones eggs in one basket is not a good plan.

[doc henderson]

the emergency use authorization set the limits of when and how these drugs are used.  we cannot use the monoclonal on an admitted patient, and cannot use the antivirals on folks until they need to be admitted.  almost every hospital in our area of states has been on diversion.  we often are keeping admitted people in the ED for 12 hours before a bed becomes available.  So we do not admit you just cause you have it.  we would like the choice to treat with either or both.  It does not do any good to use sunscreen after you are in the burn unit.  Wesley has housed about 18 patients at any given time in the ED for the last 3 months.  the other weapons to prevent over whelming the hospitals is the mitigation.  you may think it does not work, but we saw virtually no RSV (children) or influenzae last year.  The only thing different were people washing, masking, and distancing, including staying home.  once you are a ventilator, we are just trying to keep you alive long enough for your body to recover, although it will likely never be the same.  PE, stroke, heart attack, heart failure, renal failure, and secondary pneumonia.  young people have more reserve, and are more likely to survive.  the new orals are good so we can start treating as outpatients, and slow it down sooner, before the immune system get so revved up.

[doc henderson]

@Paul_H I am typically answering questions.  so if you bring up vaccine, I try to address that question.  did that answer your question?

[doctorb]

While sending people home with Covid for quarantine if they are not sick enough to warrant hospitalization takes place regardless of vaccination status, the risk of patients requiring hospitalization, an ICU stay, or death is much greater in the non-vaccinated.   That difference is the protective nature of the vaccine.  So when you state that the "treatment" for both the vaccinated and non vaccinated is the same, that is only true when patients present with "outpatient" illness, and does not factor in the potential need for additional care after that ER visit. When they require further, more supportive inpatient treatment, the non-vaccinated patients far outweigh those that are vaccinated.The data regarding that difference is irrefutable and has been posted on this thread from multiple sources. 

To Paul's comment, I firmly believe that we cannot vaccinate our way out of this and better treatments of the illness are needed.  However, the vaccine does a pretty good job of preventing severe illness and death right now, especially compared to the non-vaccinated.  The MAB's have been successful, but are not as widely used as they should be.  So we shoot the arrows we have in our quiver.  More treatments are coming.