Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[breederman]

I sent my manager a note over the weekend reminding him that my job title says "driver" and perhaps he might want to look into making sure the written job description says " non customer facing" I'm 63 and was planning on working 3 more years but i may be forced into retirement on Jan 4th. 🤬

[kantuckid]

One can avoid the use of a seatbelt by not using an automobile. This is more along the lines of just how far will we allow the government to go.

I completely support anyone who wishes to take the jab and hope it helps them, but don't tell me my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are dependent upon an unproven, very controversial, very profitable substance being injected into me.

As an e.g. of stuff forced on us and a matter of fact, seatbelts were very much objected to by many people back when they came in. Some still avoid them FWIW.
Helmets for riders laws are the same thing and continues to this day more so than seat belts I suspect?
The list of government mandated things is really long and sometimes a hot button issue, other times not so much.
For myself who is often libertarian minded, and dislike government overreach, the shots are just not an issue. I can put the mandate aside easily. People losing their jobs I don't see as proper government roles. Maybe my mind is twisted but thats my take. 
Most of my son's engineers don't meet the public but a bunch of them he get's to let go soon for no shots. These are the same engineer's who design the governments "infrastructure projects" which are so much in the news of recent. Federal money ='s get the shot or lose those contracts. They are very hard to find people. 

[Ljohnsaw]

Hmmm,  looks like there is evidence that Ivermectin does work.
Dr. John Campbell

[doctorb]

The anti-viral activity in the laboratory investigations reviewed in the video is real, has been known for some time, and has been demonstrated in multiple studies. Well controlled clinical studies need to demonstrate clinical efficiency of this cheap treatment.  My suggestion is to hold onto your hope and wait for clinical verification of these findings.  Timing of ivermectin treatment with relation to the start of symptoms or positive testing, dosage of the drug, and whether it can be used widely as a prophylactic treatment to the disease are yet unsolved questions.  We all await positive news.

[SwampDonkey]

Hmmm,  looks like there is evidence that Ivermectin does work.
Dr. John Campbell

Yes, he has several videos about it and links to the studies. And $0.06 cents per course is a heck of a lot more affordable than $700+ for a new one that targets only one thing versus 6 different things with Ivermectin. Less chance of mutation that will overcome the medication. ;D

Ivermection efficacy was played down from the beginning, can't make money. :D
All those kinds of drugs need taking in the early stages ASAP before you're really hurting from the 'bug'. It stops it from replicating. This would be a real game changer in poor parts of the world, low cost.

[doc henderson]

it would be great!  also since the vaccine only lessons the severity of the disease, and does not prevent infection entirely, I do not see the reason for the mandate.  Vaccines that are mandated, are well tested, and prevent infection.  the mandate is to protect others.  If it only protects you the individual, then it should be your choice.  the original goal was to extinguish the disease all together and that is not happening.

[Don P]

Check that. I think that a vaccinated person stops producing and shedding a number of days before an unvaccinated person. I don't know the generational speed of the bug but within a couple of virus generations that would be a large difference in the amount of virus walking around.

[doc henderson]

I think the vaccine is better than nothing, and I choose to get two shots, and will get the booster soon.  I got the flu shot as well.  but, the idea that the vaccine will eliminate the disease is not happening.  we got rid of small pox as an example with a vaccine.  If the disease was uniformly fatal, I would be ok with a mandate.  so all I am saying, is I am not sure mandating the vaccine and firing folks is not science, it is politics, I think.  Many are still commenting on it, so I just wanted to make that statement.  It is working more like the mitigation and reducing severity, and symptoms.  It has some side effects, similar to the disease in nature, but overall less severe.  we are approaching 2 years, and we are lucky to have the vaccine.  It is amazing that it was developed based on technology acquired in the past.  My wife is a pharmacist, and I work with several in my job.  I am not a pro-pharma guy, but if the big companies were struggling, then they would not have resources to jump on this problem.  and yes @Don P it reduces shedding.  I think if this had not been politicized, we would have more that comply.  now there are adds on TV to "get the vaccine", but I think those that have made the decision to not get it, are galvanized by the politics.  Our hospital may go with a mandate now, as we receive federal funds (Medicare) and will be required to mandate it for employee's or loose funding.  we have been sensible so far.  being forced to not be sensible. our big issue now is nursing shortage, and a mandate will make it worse. I think the admin wants to mandate it, and when things get better (for many reasons), they can claim credit.  we currently have 4 in the ICU on ventilators.  lots of non covid drug shortages.

[Stephen1]

We just read about a vaccine in trials out of France that has been able to use the dead virus as in what I can consider traditional vaccines. 
It will be interesting to see how that developes. We are still a long way from going back to a normal way of being. 

[firefighter ontheside]

The Johnson and Johnson vaccine that has been out for a while is a traditional vaccine.  In trials it was only something like 60% effective at preventing disease.

[doctorb]

The discussion regarding "naturally acquired" immunity versus immunity from the vaccine continues.  Many have assumed that, after resolving a Covid infection, that the resultant immunity is superior in all ways.  Here are a few published articles/news reports that question that view.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination. 
Review articles of recent investigations.
 https://healthfeedback.org/infection-induced-immunity-versus-vaccine-induced-immunity-weighing-the-benefits-and-risks/

This one is more pro-natural immunity
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext

CDC study regarding excellent immunity after vaccination versus natural infection 
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Critique of the CDC study that found vaccination provided better immunity.
https://weartv.com/news/coronavirus/experts-identify-potential-bias-in-cdc-natural-immunity-study 

Most of the evidence that natural infection creates better immunity against Covid comes from a widely read Israeli study.  There is no doubt that infection with Covid in the unvaccinated patient creates immunity.  Some of the above papers described that this immunity is more inconsistent than that seen after vaccination.

My point in researching this is that the science is continuing to flow. Natural immunity is not necessarily some kind of superior armor against future infections, according to the reviews listed, and, of course, means that you have to take the risk of potentially severe disease to obtain it.  So when you hear or read about "natural immunity", not all patients get a superior response.  There is more research coming out about this, and any definitive opinion one way or the other is premature.  Hold off on your assumptions!

[Ianab]

Some of the above papers described that this immunity is more inconsistent than that seen after vaccination. My point in researching this is that the science is continuing to flow

Was reading an article about natural immunity, and it explained how different peoples immune systems could be triggered differently. The body is capable of making millions of different antibody proteins, depending on how a foreign invader triggers different cells in the immune system. 

The MRNA vaccines are targeted at one specific protein spike on the virus, the one that it uses to infect a new body cell. So after vaccination you should have that specific antibody. Now people that have beaten the disease might have that antibody, or possibly a combination of different ones, that latch onto different parts of the virus particle. So some people have recovered from Covid, but don't test positive for the normal antibody. They obviously have some antibody that works against the virus, or they would be dead. It's just not the "expected" one, and is what they have more or less effective?

I suspect that would explain the "inconsistent" natural immunity? Possibly also explains the wide range of symptoms, ranging from nothing, to dead. It's mostly a matter of luck which antibody cocktail your body comes up with in response to the virus, some may work better, or last longer. Of course the vaccine antibodies are also inconsistent, some people are able to dodge an infection completely, while some still get quite sick. 

So it's comparing 1 inconsistent thing, with another inconsistent thing. Impossible to really predict, and you will only know after lots of sample observation. 

[SwampDonkey]

I had just viewed a story on 60 Minutes Australia's site about a new vaccine there. I think it was a story from a few months back. I went looking for it again yesterday and the story seems to have been pulled. Doesn't even show up in my history of views. Youtube has the power to make stuff disappear. :D

[Ianab]

I'd be VERY surprised if there isn't 100 new vaccine candidates being developed and in early stages of testing around the World right now. 

But they don't make for good headlines on the News, and Google etc has their own algorithms about news. 

So even with massive resources thrown behind it, a new vaccine takes ~12 months to get tested and approved. (and that is FAST). And that's still longer than the average news attention span.  

"Remember that new Aussie vaccine we talked about 3 months ago? It's now into Phase II testing". Yeah, that's a headline right there.  :

[SwampDonkey]

I don't believe we were working on any here. Prime Minister Harper shut down a lot of research centres. Not someone very science minded. A lot of the researchers at the very beginning of vaccine talk where quick to point it out to the media.

[Hilltop366]

Here is one I have heard of.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/medicago-montreal-covid-vaccine-1.6031176

[SwampDonkey]

Appears to be the only one, but still in trials, and facilities to mass produce it have not been built.

[doc henderson]

there is an immediate and contributing diagnosis.  we all die of cardio pulmonary arrest.  but that is too general.  that is how we pronounce most death, even brain death, is not given a time till the heart stops, except for poss. organ donation.  It can be hard to determine.  in your example.  cause of death might be blunt force trauma, splenic rupture, lung cancer contributing.  

[Beau Woodworks]

I'd be VERY surprised if there isn't 100 new vaccine candidates being developed and in early stages of testing around the World right now.

But they don't make for good headlines on the News, and Google etc has their own algorithms about news.

So even with massive resources thrown behind it, a new vaccine takes ~12 months to get tested and approved. (and that is FAST). And that's still longer than the average news attention span.  

"Remember that new Aussie vaccine we talked about 3 months ago? It's now into Phase II testing". Yeah, that's a headline right there.  :

Plenty more in development for sure
 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html

[Ianab]

How to spread Covid in one easy lesson....

Find your Sister is living in Auckland, where Covid is currently circulating, and is feeling sick. 
Drive 4 hours each way, bypassing border controls for all but "essential" workers, and bring her "home'. 
Don't get vaccinated...
Don't use the contract tracing app on your phone, or even the manual sign in. 
Infect the rest of your family. 
Ignore the requests to get tested when the virus shows up in the town waste water for a week. 
Go to the pharmacy 3 times in 3 days for "flu" medicine. 
Call ambulance when Dad can't breath, but refuse a test until the police arrive and tell you it's a Public Health Order. 
Now all 6 people in the house have tested positive...

Good news? 3 of them are children, but haven't been at school or kindy, and are probably going to be OK. The hospital patient is well enough to go home.

I don't wish them harm, but they did everything they could to spread the virus. Like, we know that the virus is eventually going to reach here, but it didn't need that sort of knucklehead help. Of course their names haven't been made public, but it's a small town, so it's not a secret. But I'm not rushing round there with torches and pitchforks. Just disappointed.

We are now at 81% fully vaccinated, and 90% have had at least one shot. At 90% fully vaccinated restrictions are supposed to ease. But chances are there will still be cases, and some deaths. But we are in that messy almost vaccinated / need to open up businesses area. 

Summer should help too, less virus transmission and all that. 

[SwampDonkey]

I've seen several graphs and they demonstrate numbers of individuals infected between the two vaccination groups, and the shape of the curve for the two groups is the same. But the gap between is huge, a lot more of the unvaccinated. This data is from the UK where they test a lot more than here in USA/Canada population wise. It shows that the two groups parallel one another, an uptick in one group means the same going on in the other. But of course you have a lot more people who were vaccinated, so reducing infection for sure, but not preventing spread or the vaccinated line would not be climbing, it would be steady or falling off if it were the case. The area between the blue line and the red line is people unvaccinated and infected. The area between the red line and the x axis is volume of people vaccinated and infected.

[Southside]

But I'm not rushing round there with torches and pitchforks

Are you suggesting that it would be better to leave ones family member in harms way because a politician told you so?  Testing waste water, police checkpoints, phone tracing, and business closures - perhaps if freedom was respected more then folks would be more willing to cooperate.  

Taking the approach that "the beatings will continue until morale improves" isn't going to convince those who have yet to take the jab, rather it will have the opposite impact.  

[doc henderson]

since the vaccine does not prevent infection in the future, then it is not going to stop spread.  so I do not think a mandate is needed since it only protects the individual overall, and not the community as a whole.  the original hope was we could shut down the disease and it would be a one and done.  Now we know that it mostly will reduce your chance of being very sick and or dying of the disease.  but, if you are sick and refuse to mitigate (recklessly endangering others) then I think that is an issue.  We have charged patients who are known by us and them to have Hepatitis and they are spitting in the faces of police and healthcare people, and they are charged with attempted murder.  they got off as they had drug, alcohol and mental health issues.  but they are clearly a danger to society in general.  It is one thing to decline a vaccine and get sick, but then you have a responsibility to not endanger others.  that is where the hospitals come in and feel that a sick health care person could infect many.  My good friends in NY closed their practice to unvaccinated patients.  People thought they were crazed pro-vac doctors.  It was more that they took care of very ill patients, and a kid with chicken pox sitting in the waiting area, could kill one of their at risk patients (cancer on chemo).
they ended up on the Today show.

[Paul_H]

I know you are opposed to mandates Doc and appreciate it.

This quote from Zuby (rapper?) kind of sums up a lot of the hesitancy aside from government over reach

Simultaneously trying to sell the 3rd and 4th shots to people who took the first two or three whilst trying to sell the 1st one as highly effective to people who've taken none is a bold strategy

That is why I'm thankful for the availability of drugs for the initial attack of the virus alongside of healthier lifestyle choices including fighting obesity and diabetes.

[Hilltop366]

A freedom comment got me to wondering if there is a freedom rating for countries so I googled it, results that were found from Freedom index by country 2021.

The ten countries with the highest human freedom indexes (the freest countries in the world) are: