Just the Facts, the Crown virus.

[kantuckid]

Cute but scarry (to me) TV news from AU showing the roadblocks from two covid quarantine camp escapees being sought after.
Report was followed by saying the Canadian regs saying the un-vaccinated can no longer board a plane or train. In the USA if that happens... 8)

It isn't cute at all.  This is  really really scary.  covid camps in AU and I am banned from travelling in Canada without a vaccine . It is a fact! Our Parliment has been shut down, they are using Zoom to debate. Yet they are all double vaccinated but Trudeau will not let them get together.

I was trying to play nice... My in house comment to my wife when we watched those two items on TV were far different than anything the floats in this thread!

[kantuckid]

Have you read the constitution and what it has done for you and why people flee from communist countries and tyranny and risk life and limb to get here to Canada and the USA?  Blood has been shed and lives have been lost, King George didn't hand out those freedoms they were taken. Don't cheapen it for a temporary feeling of safety.

We've been exposed and have felt ill in 2020,maybe we had it maybe not.Getting to a clinic was like trying to break in to Ft Knox. We avoid the elderly and the weak but we all have jobs to do as part of society. The jabs are not a prevention like they were first touted to be they are now another form of help with a hint of tyranny behind it. Those vaccinated two and three times can still spread the virus,can still get sick and even die.

Regarding King George, The most recent issue of Smithsonian has what I felt was a weird take on old king George. it goes on to great length to make him out as a great guy, generous in all his ways, etc., etc.. Says the American revolution was economically based not at all based on George's treatment of people. So, depending on which form of history you choose, "good George" or "nasty, tyrannical George", maybe your example works?  :D
Back to covid...where we and some medical professionals pick and choose how they react to the virus. 
I watched DR Oz on TV last night and found him to have a very relaxed yet realistic view overall of the "pandemic". Interestingly for me, his view was the polar opposite of the U of KY public health professors far more liberal editorial in yesterday's local newspaper. 

Seems we can find whatever "proves" our personal point of view from an actual doctor based/medical related source here or elsewhere.
 
 I guess I could walk away and shut up but appreciate the personal touch both docs add in this thread or I wouldn't come here. 
Thanks to both docs for taking your time to attend.    

[doc henderson]

I try not to post in this group, i don't think anything i say is going to change anyone's perception of Covid.  But how about 4 easy facts i think we can all agree with.  

Fact 1.   The covid19 shot is not a vaccine any more than the flu shot is.  

Fact 2  If every single human on he planet gets the Covid shot and all the booster shots, Covid 19 would not go away.  It would still exist and still be carried and transmitted by humans.

Fact 3  Covid 19 is not like Measles, Polio, (with current medical technology) humans can not be made immune to it.  

Fact 4 We do not currently know the long term effects from the Covid 19 shots, positive or negative effects

Four simple FACTS i would hope we could all agree on.  Correct ?  

#2  I said we will not know unless it happens.  not that it would. It is possible to be carried by animals and not be carried or transmitted by humans.  coronavirus has been around for a long time
#3  not yet, but that was true originally for polio.  now with measles, the immunity wanes over time and requires a booster.  
#4  I agree we do not know of all of the long-term effects of either the shot OR the disease and will not for a long time ... by definition.  this is still very early in the life of this virus.  
tetanus, rabies, MMR and other childhood immunizations, and covid are all immunizations.
It is poss. that the less virulent, more infectious omicron could take over, and the whole thing becomes like a cold (like the other corona viruses we have known for 40 years) and we no longer need a shot.  unless it continues to mutate.  this is where many cancers come from, (mutations and undoing control of replication of cells, making tumors) so it is possible the research done may be the key to solving the cancer thing.  good thoughts and thanks for posting your comments @Tristen

[doctorb]

interesting overview regarding Covid, hospitalizations, and kids.

Covid and Age - The New York Times

[Paul_H]

Regarding King George, The most recent issue of Smithsonian has what I felt was a weird take on old king George. it goes on to great length to make him out as a great guy, generous in all his ways, etc., etc.. Says the American revolution was economically based not at all based on George's treatment of people. So, depending on which form of history you choose, "good George" or "nasty, tyrannical George",

A fascinating subject for another thread if you want to start one. United Empire Loyalists would agree with the Smithsonian but they had to flee after Washington's victory. History is very interesting.
United Empire Loyalists :: United Empire Loyalist Heritage Centre and Park

[Gary_C]

I don't normally read nor trust anything in the NY Times and that link confirms that I have exceeded my quota. 

[doctorb]

Regarding the study posted by leeroyjd....

i concur with the comments of doc h.  The marker is a known predictor of cardiac events.  It appears that the vaccine affects the marker for 2 months post-vaccine.  What is not shown is whether this translates to a higher rate of cardiac events after vaccine injection, or whether this is merely a short-term elevation in the marker that is transitory and does not equate to cardiac issues in real life.  Understand that the original purpose of the marker has a time frame attempting to predict heart related outcomes over five years.  So, raising concern about the potential cardiac effects of the vaccine is good.  If the marker returns to normal over a relatively short period of time, does that mean that one is vulnerable to cardiac events only while it is elevated, even later in life when the marker is normalized, or not at all?  We don't yet know.

good question!

[doctorb]

Gary_C

I can't tell whether you read it or not from your post!  To summarize, the article demonstrates that kids are not the problem and provides further insight from data collection in the Seattle area regarding hospitalizations and Covid.  It is not your typical NYT opinion piece, and I doubt that it would have any long-term effects on any that read it. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Dr. Campbell reviewed that study awhile back in his videos. Was cautiously optimistic, but not enough data to be definitive.  But recently posted a video of the effect of the virus and of not aspirating and effects on the circulatory system, with the virus producing higher incidence than the vaccine. Still rare events in millions of doses. Yes, some deaths on either side of the fence, more from disease side effects. But very small numbers either way.

How common is the event? Is it rare? Who has the crystal ball to see 5 or more years out?

Sometimes things correlate,  but correlation is not causation. Many times it is shown that there are other factors unknown at the time.

[Gary_C]

doctorb

No, I was not permitted to read the article as the link informed me that I have already seen the maximum allowed viewings of their fiction of three articles before having the privilege of paying for their stomach turning yet Pulitizer Prize winning fiction.  ;D

[Walnut Beast]

Isn't that interesting how they say the new variant had just came to the US. Now they are finding cases everywhere now 🤔. Six in our state alone!!  No new regulations or protocols for people traveling in and out of the country 🙄

[doc henderson]

cat is already out of the bag, contact tracing may not help.  can slow it down a bit.

[Walnut Beast]

Before they wanted to shut everything down or cancel big gatherings or events. Now it's no restrictions on anything and push the jab. But they say new cases are higher than ever. Interesting. Late night shows ( Jimmy Fallon ) of the sort and the others that loved to tell you to wear a mask non stop how they stopped wearing one after everything turned blue. The guests and hosts hug and kiss all the time but if your in the audience you better wear a mask and a current vaccinated card. Hypocrisy! 

[doc henderson]

I agree, and if this was the hypocritical political thread I would comment.    viruses like influenza spread rapidly and make the rounds every winter.   It is considered part of nature, like a predator prey thing.  I think it is the politics keeping it (covid) in the news and making everyone choose a side.  We are seeing flu now, but did not last year, thought to be from effective mitigation towards Covid.  it is funny, my computer still does not know how to spell covid.  must be nice.

[SwampDonkey]

New cases aren't  higher than ever, barely a 3rd of what there were back before the jabs became a thing in Dec-January 2021. On Nov 30 the 7-day average in the US was 82,000 new cases, back in Jan 9, it was 254,000. Plus they are testing more. Where in the world did you see that lie?

Way back there we had to try something to slow spread, we had 'no vaccines' my friend.  It's a hard call to make for anyone at the podium and I just do not agree with the notion that it is a 'control' experiment. It is everyone's right to feel safe from an infectious disease when they go about their daily life.

Talk show hosts are often vaccinated and distancing themselves as well as testing themselves, guests and audiences. Joe Rogan has guests all week, his guests are tested. Joe is not vaccinated, and has had COVID, but not severe. And that was not from a guest on his show.

[SwampDonkey]

New data from South Africa indicates, natural immunity from previous infections from the previous variants of COVID increases your chances by 2.34 x as much to get infected by Omicron. They are expecting a lot of reinfections in SA from omicron since the vaccination rate is 24% right now. Previous chances of reinfection from other variants were less likely. This comes from a data set of 2.8M unvaccinated patients.

**No data yet to compare that with the vaccinated population.

Omicron does reinfect after natural infection - YouTube

[doc henderson]

@SwampDonkey who are you referring to when you say "new cases are not higher than ever"  I could not find that anyone said that.  and are you saying it is 2.4 x more likely to contract omicron if you had covid before, but  less if you never did or just had the vaccine?  that does not ring true (make sense) and not enough data to know.

remember there is lots of figures like daily new case rate, and weekly, as well as total cases.  in the 2.8 million unvaxed, how many have it that had covid already, and what are we comparing to.

[kantuckid]

Regarding King George, The most recent issue of Smithsonian has what I felt was a weird take on old king George. it goes on to great length to make him out as a great guy, generous in all his ways, etc., etc.. Says the American revolution was economically based not at all based on George's treatment of people. So, depending on which form of history you choose, "good George" or "nasty, tyrannical George",

A fascinating subject for another thread if you want to start one. United Empire Loyalists would agree with the Smithsonian but they had to flee after Washington's victory. History is very interesting.
United Empire Loyalists :: United Empire Loyalist Heritage Centre and Park

I'm from that mind set that sees a web thread like a real conversation with the twist and turns that occur within them in real life. Kind of like on the job when people find ways to talk about this & that. I'll leave that new thread to someone else but I was trying for a lighthearted, well-intentioned comment at that. 

[kantuckid]

I don't normally read nor trust anything in the NY Times and that link confirms that I have exceeded my quota.  

That makes twice lately someone's trashed the times here. Guess what-I read it and abhor much of what's said there. Our oldest son who has the primary subscription, can add 5 people to his list as subscribers. He's even more conservative than myself, which is hard to believe for some who really know me. 
If all you choose to read is expectedly leaned in one direction then you've not apprised yourself of "what the other sides thinking", which is our poriviledge per freedom of speech and so on. 
The NYT's inspite of easily holding the hate speech all-time record for anti "you-know-who" comments, it still has great informational jouranlisim aside from the other stuff. I actually find the letters the editor as interesting as the lead articles and some are highly informational too because seriously positioned professionals and savvy real people make those comments. Recipes are neat, book reviews, and much, much more. I could state some of the "stuff" I really get fuzzed about therein but based on it being highly "non-woke" to do so I'll avoid such talk. They have tons of that for sure. The WSJ is more personally refreshing for me and todays editorial by one of my favorite writers, Kimberly Strassel is great. It's called "Bidens Covid Quagmire". Sure not something like the NYT's puts out. Both wander some but have staff unlike most any newspapers left in the USA. 
I'd already read that link, feel free to PM me your beef.  

[SwampDonkey]

Here are the comparisons all graphed. I think some people hope their audience forgets, and it doesn't take long to forget figures. What happens in most circumstances with time data is high days and low days. When you normalize it, you see trends easier.









Doc in the second post, they were just looking at unvaccinated over several months before Omicron was discovered I believe and found natural immunity was 71-75% effective in the old variants previous to omicron. They looked at who got reinfected with omicron since Nov1 -27 and found those with natural immunity from the other variants became more likely to get infected by omicron at 2.4 times likelihood. So it goes from less likely from the others, to more likely to be reinfected by Omicron. It goes against the grain, even Dr Campbell is surprised. But that is the data. SA does have world class facilities. But none the less they do not have a study for the vaccinated, the main reason they looked at unvaccinated was to study natural immunity plus the fact that only 24 % is vaccinated. I'm sure vaccination studies are forthcoming. Yes, until we have that data for the vaccinated, there is no need to postulate, we need the data to compare.

We are certainly not seeing sky high infections here in NB all the sudden, not yet, and not as high as the previous wave back in October. Now that can change rapidly, but can't say, when it hasn't taken place.

[SwampDonkey]

We do have a change this Saturday happening due to the winter season. Alert level 1.

COVID-19 alert system

[doc henderson]

the new case rate is similar, but the 7 days average is lower as it was not on its way up a long steep slope.  not sure what they are comparing to and what number of infections seen that are omicron in the prev. infected.

[SwampDonkey]

@doc henderson Here's the paper.

South Africa study (PDF)

[doc henderson]

so it looks like there is no predilection for infection, but previous infection does not appear to be as protective for omicron as much as delta and others,  by 2.4x.  not a big deal especially if it is not as severe, and provides immunity for several of the mutations.

[SwampDonkey]

Did you notice how the unvaccinated infections jumped in the last 2 weeks? Almost like the previous spike and this is early. Hopefully being highly infectious reduces it's punch.