small tractor / grapple around the mill ?

[JustinW_NZ]

Hi there All

I've got the chance to use one of the family owned tractors which is a Antonio Carraro 8400 HTM compact tractor.
Which is a small pivot tractor for orchard type work but around 70hp 4wd and reversible seating (currently set up as a park mower)

Anyway, I was wondering what people thought about something like that with a Wallenstein type 3 point linkage grapple?
Because the seat/controls can turn around you could have full view on the grapple and work it well.

I'm thinking of using it around my mill while portable since the tractor is small enough to easily transport and nimble enough to get around small customer blocks.
I have a particular job coming up where I might need to drag some big sticks around which would be very testing...

The reason I'm thinking grapple is I can use it to position stuff in front of the mill with ease.
I notice in there you tube clip they are working one around a LT40 as well?! haha

So anyone else using something like this around their mill or everyone just using bigger tractor with FEL?
Any comments greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Justin

[Tom the Sawyer]

Justin,

I have never heard of these but I'm always interested in efficient machines for working around my mill (B-20).  I figured I should focus on machines that could handle the largest log that my mill is rated for - 5000 lbs.  I did watch several YouTube videos and the AC8400HTM didn't appear, to me, to be very suitable for working around a mill.  It seems to be relatively long for its weight (4100 lbs) and, although it works well for a mower on even or rolling ground, it appeared to have trouble on uneven ground and didn't appear to have enough mass to keep it from tipping with loads that appeared to be much lighter than its rated lift capacity of 4200 pounds. 

There is one of it moving material at a construction site and it bounced everytime it went in to pick up a relatively small bucket of gravel (?).  If it can't pick up logs as big as my mill can handle then it wouldn't be my choice.  A 36" diameter log means the load is centered at least 18" beyond the lift arm connector, many load capacities are rated at the end of the lift arm.  Although I rarely need to move logs that big but when I do, that's when you really need the right machine.  I went with a zero-turn, all-terrain, forklift with a 5000 lb capacity - it works out very well.

Good luck with your test (and buckle up).

[JustinW_NZ]

Tom, thanks for the reply.

I think rather the same, and the boom lift rating is only 1500lbs which seems awfully low (Wallenstein grapple), I'm better off putting a fork hoist setup on the front of the unit at that rate and then yes, end up with a small pivot off-road fork lift...

Some of the bigger bits of wood I'm dealing with are easy 2ton (heavy eucalypts) and while I don't so much need to "pick them up" I just need to be able to 'persuade them" onto the mill or along the log deck (moving them with long bars and/or cant hooks gets old fast)..

This other potential job I would need to skid some logs a little distance, hence why I'm also interested in the grapple, a bit multipurpose, and just because its not listed at huge lifting rates doesn't mean it couldn't pick up one end of a log and drag it along VS tongs and chain dragging...?

I am 100% portable and ideally wouldn't buy anything (customer supplies) but that isn't working out always so well, and B - Would love a big tracksteer BUT then a bigger machine is more transport costly etc. etc.. and not to mention costly.

These machines are narrow but being a pivot type unit do travel well on slopes or uneven terrain, BUT if you had a long weight out front/back you could tip them easy but I'm not setting up the mill on ground such as that...

Keep the comments coming, and Tom if you find another unit like yours I will flick you a roll of stamps and you could post it over here eh?  :D

Cheers
Justin

[Ianab]

Would a logging arch work better than a grapple for moving logs, especially over any distance. A small tractor will tow a lot more than it can lift.

Ian

[JustinW_NZ]

Would a logging arch work better than a grapple for moving logs, especially over any distance. A small tractor will tow a lot more than it can lift.

Ian

yip I agree BUT, an arch doesn't help me so much around the mill to nudge logs around on the log deck.
If I ended up having to move lots of logs from woods to the mill I would go for a winch setup / arch in a heart beat - but trying to avoid being a logger and stick to the milling  ;D

Two things have prompted this - My mill is currently at a job with lots of big heavy wood, and no onsite tractor, so we have to wait for the farmer next door to restock the log deck (which is sloped uphill annoyingly as well) and just makes it a battle...
and two
The family is looking at getting rid of the little tractor, so can maybe get it for "family rates" if you know what I mean.

Ian - as you know most places will have tractors and FEL (I love working with logging crews with Bells) but I'm hitting a few smaller places that don't or jobs where I might be buying the trees and therefore need to sort myself out...
I'm interested in you view since you would know the timber I'm needing to nudge around...
I'm particularly targeting euc's for quartered flooring with sleepers out of the knotty grade stuff which these are usually a lot more heavy than pine/marco etc....

The local importer of the Wallenstein gear is in Nelson funnily enuf, so I will go chat to them and see if they have tried those grapples out at all...

Cheers
Justin

[dgdrls]

  I did see a video of a smaller AC skidding logs.
dandy little unit!!. 

In the end I say try it just take your time and double check everything before you put the throttle to it.

can you post the video link of the machine you found working around the mill?

best
DGD

[JustinW_NZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIW-XCBCY2U

That is the Wallenstein promo video of the grapple, with the LT40 in there (what I run also)

http://www.beata.biz.pl/index.php?id=3&pos=44

That top photo shows the machine basically as it is here (has the cab etc...)

Cheers

[Ianab]

Yeah, the size and weight of a decent Eucalyptus log is going to be an issue. It's when you really need the lift that it wont handle it.

Not going to do much good on this job  :D


It would probably work fine on the smaller logs, but those aren't such a problem to move around in other ways.

Ian

[JustinW_NZ]

Do I win a prize for ugly log?



That's my new 36" bar on my stihl ms660?!
I started hacking that log down to size, so it wont bother me much longer...
Quarter sawing with the chainsaw freehand is bit of an art i've decided?!



Another chainsaw picture, but shows the size of the other logs..
I *think the grapple setup should be able to sling them around.
A 80hp tractor and FEL is currently moving them ok.

I just got back from the importers and that grapple is $4220+gst (NZD) in my hands here.
So its not completely silly on price as long as it would work ok..

[Tom the Sawyer]

Justin,

The grapple video says it has a 38" capacity (which is impressive but it wouldn't grip that large log) but said it has a lifting capacity of only 1500 pounds.  Over here that would be about an 18"x10' oak log, pretty limiting unless you are going to drag them everywhere.  Even the quarters of that big log might exceed the weight limits of the grapple.  On the logs it will lift, can it lift them high enough to place them on your mill or just on the loading arms?

By the way, here in the States my style of forklift is called a "piggyback'.  The type you would see riding on the rear of home improvement store, sod, lumber or other delivery semis.  Mine was originally built for Home Depot.  The only annoying limitation I have found is that the mast only has about 15° forward and backward tilt.  It is primarily a forklift after all, but the extendable carriage and side shift are useful.  A skidsteer would certainly be very useful too, but in my price range I couldn't find one that would pick up a log that heavy.

[JustinW_NZ]

yeah, that clamp size is impressive.

I'm happy with just dragging things around and would only ever put logs on the loader arms as to not damage the mill (had bad experiences with this)
Or would be shunting things onto the skids in front of the mill.

Yes, that large log photo is not something I would even think about moving perhaps pulling/rolling with a chain but not grappling...
Those other 30"ish logs I would try to grapple move.

Cheers
Justin

[woodyone.john]

Justin,I used to have a small 70 horse Valpadana.Heaps of gears/speeds good strong lift on the 3pt links and quite nimble like you say,BUT small wheels dont have as much traction as big ones,and longer tractors [not so nimble i agree and higher to the seat ,tow way more and are built for more hard work /abuse.Not perfect ,but now I use a 275 mf,with a home built winch on the back and forks on the front.If /when I trade up it will probably be a 390 mf.it can support larger diameter rams on the front forks and is beefier built front axle to take the extra weight. my tuppence worth. cheers john

[bandmiller2]

Grapples are handy,I own one,but their best duty is loading and unloading trucks and trailers.For use around the mill I much prefer a good set of forks preferably adjustable. Frank C.

[GDinMaine]

I think a tractor can be very helpful around the mill.  I run into having to shift logs lengthwise anywhere from 2-6 feet.  That presents far more of a problem then rolling them, even if they are rather small.  I have thought about taking my small (30hp) tractor to jobs just for that.  I could move logs to line up with the loader arms.  Even if I had a tractor that is able to lift large logs, most often I could not get to the log as it is probably one of several that are all piled up.  If the tractor can lift 1000 lbs that is exactly 960 lbs more then I feel comfortable to handle all day long.
Trying to haul a large enough machine to lift 4-5k lbs logs would be very costly.  Would need large tractor, trailer and a dumptruck to move all that. 

[Hud-Son Forest Equipment]

Great pictures!

[dgdrls]

Justin,

did you score that tractor yet?

I was kicking this around a bit  would a hoisting boom work better fashioned off the 3 point
with a winch ??

best
DGD

[Piston]

Have you thought about a front end loader mounted grapple?  Instead of a rear mount one?  I find it the most useful tool I've ever come across....ever....anywhere...for my uses. 

I use it for everything from taking logs out of the woods, keeping them off the ground, handling slabs, picking up and handling brush, and about 4,027 other things.

more pics here:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=50047.0

It's limited by your FEL lift capacity. 

[JustinW_NZ]

Hi Guys

No haven't scored the tractor, but its within the family anyway, so its not like I cant use it  ;D
The rear hitch will lift 2 tons, so that's probably suited to a grapple life..

And Piston - would love a front end loader would would be ideal, BUT im trying to keep the setup small.

the small compact tractor and with grapple (maybe fork hoist later on) will be around 2tons which in NZ means I can transport the thing on a normal trailer making it portable cheaply.

If I go any bigger or start adding more bits it suddenly becomes worthless as it could cost more to transport a big unit to a job than the job is worth itself...
That is my sticking point.

A winch setup would be a must do addon as well in my view

I've been a bit busy but still very much on top of my mind, the Wife and I are spending a bit of time planning forward and looking to invest more in "the company" so this might be part of that.

Cheers
Justin

[Piston]

Justin, do you already have a front end loader on the machine?  The FEL grapple actually takes the place of the bucket, so it's no larger than the normal setup anyways. 

[JustinW_NZ]

Justin, do you already have a front end loader on the machine?  The FEL grapple actually takes the place of the bucket, so it's no larger than the normal setup anyways.

Sorry, no, it doesn't have any form of bucket or forks on it.
We have another tractor that does that does the rest of the orchard work and I would get growled at if I scratched it "with those dirty logs"  :D

And yes, the FEL grapple would be ideal I think as well.

I should upload a picture of the tractor on here to show you what it is currently.
it has a hydraulic top ram currently on the rear area and some fat wide wheels currently, so those to things would be useful.

Cheers
Justin

[dgdrls]

R.E.L for the AC,  just not sure of its limits

http://www.glasshousetractors.com/agilator4in1bucket.html

DGD