I have a gas winch (Rule) with an 1800 lb single line pull which I plan to use to parbuckle logs onto my trailer to support my sawmill/hobby addiction. My goal is to load only 3000 lb log which together with the trailer weight will be the 5000 lb limit that my truck can pull. The ramp is 8 ft long and the flatbed trailer is 2 feet high. At this angle (~15 degrees) approximately a 500 lb pull is needed to load a 3000 lb log by my calculations, ignoring inconvenient things like friction and knots. Is this correct? The parbuckling process will double the 1800 to 3600 which should be a gracious plenty. Sound too easy, am I right?
Bob
Bob,I didn't do the math but I don't think you'll have any trouble buckling logs over the side.With that winch and mayby with a snatch block you cound have an "A" frame and load over the fantail also. Frank C.
You may be OK, but those "inconvenient things" have a way of spoiling the plan.
I originally had a 3500 lb.Warn winch on my trailer. I was loading a 16' X 30" red oak which should not have been a problem at 5k lbs. I got it half way up when the winch failed. Couldn't go up or down. I called my Son with his 12K Warn and we loaded it.
I replaced the wimp with an 8k MileMarker. No problems since. Here is loading a 6700 lb. red oak.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0320.JPG)
As you can see, those knots and butt swells really add to the "inconvenient things" that the winch must overcome.
On my web site I put pictures of a mule being used to parbuckle.
www.royhaney.com
just_sawing , there are no files in your photos of this. bg
On his website under: Parbuckling
I like the hat on the dog also. :)
just_sawing , i miss spoke about the photo, i didnt look at the web site, have a good day and have fun sawing at the wilson co. fair, bg
Bill, go to his web site, Pretty neat pics. I'd love to do that .
What's the difference between parbuckling and cross-hauling?
sandhills , i did. good photos. i met just sawing tuesday at the fair. enjoyed his stories. bg
Quote from: Okrafarmer on August 18, 2010, 10:26:01 PM
What's the difference between parbuckling and cross-hauling?
In the North it's Parbuckling. In Dixie, it's Crosshauling. :D
Here's what the Forum Dictionary in the "forum extras" above says:
"A method for loading objects onto vehicles, consisting of a chain or cable that is hooked on opposite sides of a vehicle, looped under the object, and connected to a power source and that rolls the object onto the vehicle.
Also known as Crosshaul"
NOTE: There's a lot of information hidden in that little row of links.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=dictionary
Quote from: Magicman on August 18, 2010, 10:44:49 PMIn the North it's Parbuckling. In Dixie, it's Crosshauling. :D
OOIC! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Another one of those things. Having lived both places, I can appreciate that.
For instance, mention a "wheeler" to a southerner, and he gives you a blank stare, even if he drives one for a living!
i have a 9000lb winch mounted under the tray on my ute and load my trailer, run it threw a block and around the log.
will load a 6000lb log no trouble. up 7' long ramps. its amazing how much difference a lump or knot makes to rolling.
Quote from: Magicman on August 18, 2010, 10:44:49 PM
Quote from: Okrafarmer on August 18, 2010, 10:26:01 PM
What's the difference between parbuckling and cross-hauling?
In the North it's Parbuckling. In Dixie, it's Crosshauling. :D
I have been callling it parbuckling this whole time. I'll have to eat several pounds of grits to make up for my error :D :D
Seems loading and hauling are two different subjects.
Cross hauling (to me) would be hauling a load of short logs (like pulpwood) perpendicular to the truck bed.
Loading using parbuckling would be the method used to get the large item (log in this case) moved, be it over the side of a trailer, or onto a deck. Just may be me (from the north). :)
Webster says:
Crosshaul?? Cross; "one line across another". Haul; "to pull or drag".
Cross-hauling comes from "hauling the log up onto the wagon crossways" instead of dragging it up by the end.
Parbuckle?? Par; "equal or average". Buckle; "clasp". So you have two equal chains or cables around the log and a force pulling it up.
Both are correct.
Now I gotta get back to cooking pancakes to cover my doghouse.
Surely I missed a figure somewhere but for parbuckling, the rise-to-run ratio is the divider which determines the effort to haul the load up the ramp, ie. 2 foot lift and 8 foot ramp(4:1 ratio) equals a 3000/4 or 750 pound effort for a wheeled load. A log parbuckle with the log as a (snatch block) according to the cable/yoke run under the log and back to the winch would halve the effort to 350 pounds not including friction losses and, of course knots and creases. Watch out for the flared butts, they're a real pest and don't get in a hurry.
I've had some great success with my little hand windlass with a 9:1 handle to spool ratio. Yeah, it's a little slower than the power winches but it gives me a chance to observe what's going on with the project.
Good luck
Slabs,
It's my homespun physics that is probably faulty. I figured it this way (apparently wrong): the ramp has a 15 degree slope. Vertical is 90 degrees and that would require a dead lift force of 3000 lbs, so 15/90 * 3000 = 480 lbs of force needed for rolling up the ramp. Half baked, huh? (Of course, the winch would have to produce only half of that (or 240 lbs) since parbuckling involves 2 lines. I omitted that part).
So if 350 lbs is needed then I am still easily in the ball park with my winch. Does your windlass reverse ? My gas winch does not and I think that is a serious drawback. Thanks.
Bob
Many of the small cheap electric winches are of dubious value.Its hard to beat a real winch with a hydraulic motor,forward, reverse, no duty cycle.Find a local business that sells and installes wreakers they usally have old winches under the bench.I had a heavy duty electric winch given to me with a burned out motor replaced it with hyd. motor.A PTO driven hyd. pump can work for your dump body and winch.Frank C.
If you place a block to rove at the log it will decrease the load on the winch to half.
A single line around a log will bear the weight of the log on both legs of the line and the winch.
I did see it in some response, but I think we all need to understand that your calculations assumes a 100% efficient solution, not very likely.
For example the log in your avatar is twice as high as it is wide, that means the center of gravity of that log is moving up and down as the log rolls. In a very short distance it actually looks much like a near vertical lift.
Or there is deformation in the log or ramp or any other thing that changes the drag of the log so it does not just role up the ramp but needs to be slid up some too. That will greatly increase the load.
Winches are great tools, I want one on my next truck to load logs too. Just stay uphill from them and never stand straight behind one.
My two cents is to setup the winch so that you use 1/3 of the rated output power to get the job done.
Steve
Steve,
That avatar picture is unusual. The log is only about 6 feet long and 20 in by 40 in across the diameters and was a strain on the winch to lift for the reason you mentioned. It had to be placed on the mill with the long diameter vertical or the 4 posts wouldn't pass over it. Even then, I had to chain saw off about 6 inched off the high end.
I know I shouldn't stand behind a winch but the gas engine on the Rule is from a chainsaw and of course has a hand operated throttle. That gives me pause. :-[
Bob
The only thing I would suggest is if you are using a trailer like Magicman with the fenders/rails above the deck, I would mill two timbers a whistle taller than the rails that would set across the deck so that the logs dont crash down when the come over the rails. Thes would also allow you to roll the logs off the side right on your deck with a peavy when you get home.
Yes, I have the wrong kind of trailer for doing what I do, but it is what I have. I have not used rails because I don't want to raise my center of gravity. I usually load the smaller logs first, but as with that 42" Oak, it was the only one, but it was free.
My ramps and pulley brackets allow me to load easily from either side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0322.JPG)
Yes, that 12' X 42" Red Oak made a racket when it hit the trailer deck.
i guess if you broke a board you could just saw out another one. pc
Quote from: shinnlinger on August 21, 2010, 09:32:44 AM
The only thing I would suggest is if you are using a trailer like Magicman ...
My trailer has no sides (or wheels yet for that matter as I am still modifying it). More on that later.
Bob
Has anybody been using a yoke and then winch the log from the back?
The yoke lifts the front end and the log skids up on the decking. I was told that a open pulley is used so that the cable can be taken out of the yoke and then the log is skidded straight in. Should be able to set one log on top of another that way.
i get some brought to me that have been loaded on a trailer that way. their trailer is like magicman's. they had a framework across the back that was about 5' tall and the 3rd load they brought they had scrapped the frame for a set of roller deck and was just skidding it up on the end of the trailer. they never had any stacked.pc
Here is a post from a year ago showing loading logs.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,38764.msg558541.html#msg558541
Quote from: Magicman on August 19, 2010, 01:26:28 PM
Now I gotta get back to cooking pancakes to cover my doghouse.
I just got to ask what you are saying here?
Quote from: rbarshaw on August 24, 2010, 08:05:43 PM
Quote from: Magicman on August 19, 2010, 01:26:28 PM
Now I gotta get back to cooking pancakes to cover my doghouse.
I just got to ask what you are saying here?
It's hidden in this thread: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45409.0.html
Quote from: rbarshaw on August 24, 2010, 08:05:43 PM
Quote from: Magicman on August 19, 2010, 01:26:28 PM
Now I gotta get back to cooking pancakes to cover my doghouse.
I just got to ask what you are saying here?
It refers to an oft-quoted schoolyard joke that didn't make sense in the first place and really wasn't supposed to anyway-- but many people have heard it nonetheless. He was trying to be funny :D :D :D :D :D
Thanks, I love magicmans response to the question in the thread and, the moose milking is a riot. :D :D
Always gotta have some way of working the thread around to food. See you did it here. :)
Quote from: rbarshaw on August 27, 2010, 08:29:04 PMmoose milk :D :D
I have a question ,are you better to par-buckle...or use an 'A" frame or would having both be advantageous?
Having both is nice. Of course, you always have the parbuckling technique available anyway. All it takes is a piece of cable or chain and something to pull with. I loaded a couple of nice logs this week using a pair of 4x6 timbers, a cable, and a Chevy truck to do the pulling. ;)