Hello,
Ive been reading your forum as a guest for some time now.
I have been playing with an old chainsaw mill for awhile now. That can only lead to one thing, another, bigger saw!
So after looking for awhile, I found an old Belsaw out in northern Idaho. It has almost no use but the structure was in bad shape. So we tore it apart and left all the wood there and brought home all the steel parts and reassembled it on a 30 foot trailer frame. It came with a fixed tooth 36 blade and a 40 inch inserted tooth blade.
Im a pretty good fabricator and mechanic. I have been running two stroke bikes and saws my whole life.
I also have a chainsaw problem. I cant find regular meetings tho!!
I have collected a bit of parts while assembling my mill. Some I can use, some I cant and some I dont know how to use!
So I came here for setup help with my mill
and
Help IDing some stuff that I can use and maybe I can find a better home for the extras where the stuff is needed.
I look forward to meeting some of you. I am in the PNW by Mt Rainier
Thanks the chance, Brad
Welcome fellow Belsaw owner.
Hey Chop Shop,
Welcome aboard. It's always nice to hear about another circular mill coming back to life. We will look forward to hearing more about your project, and we all really like pictures.
Alan
Welcome Brad, theirs a lot on the internet on Belsaw mills. If you post pictures of unknown pieces we have a lot of belsawyers here. Frank C.
Thanks guys!
I will start another thread. I think I have a handle on the mill parts so far, but my knowledge of circular sawblades needs some work!
I have collected a handful of inserted tooth blades that range from 36" to 56" and many different kinds of teeth.
My goal is to learn what each kind (teeth, shanks, count) will do for for what kind of sawing. Then decide what I would use and maybe find a value and a home for some of the other blades I have.
Chop Shop,welcome to the forum.
I also have a chainsaw problem. I cant find regular meetings tho!!
Hello,my name is Ray. The FF has a board for that too. We are always open here. ;D
<still working on setting up my belsaw
From what they say the arbor on the belsaw is only good to 50 hp. Also somewhere I read do NOT run a 52 in blade on it, shaft will flex.
Welcome friend, it is nice to have another belsaw owner here. Belsaws are pretty a basic mill and great for a 1 man operation. I like sawing cross ties with mine. PC
Brad what are you planning to power your mill with.?? Be aware of rotation, a tractor PTO behind the mill is proper rotation. Most power units if behind the mill will have the wrong rotation. As brother Shelby says don't go too big on a saw, myself I wouldn't go over 46". Some fellas here use bigger but you only have 1 3/4" shaft, better to be conservative. The shanks that hold in the bits will have a letter or number stamped on them, couldn't really tell from your picture. Frank C.
Hello Brad, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on March 10, 2014, 09:29:19 PM
Brad what are you planning to power your mill with.?? Be aware of rotation, a tractor PTO behind the mill is proper rotation. Most power units if behind the mill will have the wrong rotation. As brother Shelby says don't go too big on a saw, myself I wouldn't go over 46". Some fellas here use bigger but you only have 1 3/4" shaft, better to be conservative. The shanks that hold in the bits will have a letter or number stamped on them, couldn't really tell from your picture. Frank C.
Power. Yes that is a loaded question. Im fairly good at finding useful junk. Im fairly cheap. I like old stuff. I have a tractor.
So here is my problem/choices,,,,,,,
Use my little 26hp gasser tractors PTO and make things real simple. But I worry about being to low on power. Also makes it hard to use the tractor while powering mill.
Or get a cheap and easy domestic 50s-80s 6 cylinder engine and use a rear axle or belt system to reverse the direction and dial in the speed.
Or use the duetz diesel air cooled 6 cylinder I have. I think it will to loud and overpowered. I think it could be used/saved to run a bigger mill (ya know cuz everybody has to upgrade someday!)
??????????? I just dont know what to do. Anyone run a belsaw with low power, like 30HP?
I will be sawing mostly WRC/Cedar and dougfir.
Welcome chop shop. Also a new Belsaw owner here and waiting for frost to go out to set it up. I have heard of the blade size limit but the horse power limit is a new one to me. There are many m-14 saws running on YouTube with fairly powerful engines. The low end I think I have read somewhere at around 35 HP. I will be running mine with a d-17 allis chalmers at about 56 HP. Good luck with your project. Dave
Chopper, sawmill and too much power are words seldom seen togather. Use the diesel if it has a good governor that will hold your hammered saw speed. I fear your tractor at 26 hp is a little light and would be better used as support equipment. If the Duetz is really over powered let it loaf along at 1800 and use pulleys and belts to get your proper speed. Most saws used on Bsaws were hammered around 540 PTO speed. Frank C.
I'm running a small diesel tractor with 23HP on the PTO. It struggles with hard woods but the Cedar is a breeze. (and my favorite to cut) I'm in the northwest as well, I set my Belsaw up last winter and run a 40" blade. Belsaws were advertised for 20 to 40 hp but who cares, go with whatever you have. If you were trying to make $ with it a dedicated engine makes sence but I seldom have enough logs stored up to make it worth while. A cold deck can store more than I cut on average anyway, so using the tractor to load logs, run the mill, and move the lumber keeps me plenty busy especially working by myself. I did something similar, just hauled home the basic mill leaving the wood behind. I set mine up on 6" channel (because I had it) but a lot of guys like mobile home frames if you can find one. Very simple rigs, if you are even halfways decent at fabrication you can make just about anything you will need. Research this forum using the search function about "Belsaw" tons of info and pictures of other members, I learned plenty I didn't know and I had actually been around a Belsaw in the past.
I'm with Frank on the horsepower question. You will only use what you use. I ran my Belsaw with a 140 horse Perkins. The weak link in my setup was power transmission. I was running a flat belt and was very limited on how much h.p. got to the saw. If you use belts, they will fail if you get in a big bind. If you go direct, your shear pin will fail. Extra horsepower is NOT a negative! Going from softwood to hardwood will make the point real clear. Having adequate h.p. will keep your feed speed consistent and overall make for better cutting. The real issue with excess horsepower is fuel consumption. The bigger the engine, the thirstier the beast :)
If your light on hp, add rotating mass. It will stay spooled up better. Ie heavy flywheels and counter weights
The fuel consumption and noise of an air cooled diesel is what worries me.
The deutz has a large hydro pump already attached to it. I think it would work great as a power plant but think it would be a waste. I would like to see it run a larger mill someday hopefully.
I have access to a smaller JohnDeere 4 cyl diesel commercial mower too. It sounds similar to some of you guys using combines?
If this is like my other hobbies, then this belsaw is just going to be the "gateway mill" that leads to harder more expensive mills!
Mine had a Mopar 440 on it before I got it.
nk14zp... a big ol thermoquad with headers on that 440 ??
I think it would be OVERKILL if I run my belsaw with my 400... lol I took it mild, 8.5 to 1 compression to run 92 octane, a slight massage camshaft LOL 344 duration, .510 lift, 104 centerline (in that range) 452 heads with single plane intake with the green shaft thermoquad , having bigger butterflies, the second rings in the primarys removed and accelerator pump drilled out.. should flow around 900-950 cfm. .
Welcome to the Forum Chop Shop!
shelbycharger, your carriage is going to be going so fast it's going to need a parachute and an extra 1/4 mile to slow down. :D
dave.... ya read into that one quickly. :P.. yep its a drag motor
If noise is a problem you build an engine house, many sawyers survive with a Detroit Diesel and are still sane. A good governor is very important to maintain hammered speed. Dave speekth the truth on power transmission the old timers used flat belts because that's all they had, multiple "Vee" belts are the best setup with a power unit, a shear bolt or better slip clutch for PTO connection. Frank C.
Welcome aboard Chop Shop, best place on the web
I vote for the Deutz, they are known for being thrifty with the fuel.
I understand the key to those is keeping the cooling fan and system clear of debris.
Best
DGDrls
Well I have been gone awhile but had to chime in. Best piece of advice I got for my Belsaw was from Frank and he told me to start with new teeth. that way I knew what sharp felt like and it made a world of difference on the tractor. it struggled until I got new teeth and now keep them sharp. I run my with a 33HP Massey 1533 and cuts like butter.
Welcome Chop Shop! Another Belsaw owner here. :D Mine's got a Chrysler 6 cyl off a combine running it. Seems to be fine as it's powered this mill for over 30 years.
John
Quote from: shelbycharger400 on March 11, 2014, 07:54:39 PM
nk14zp... a big ol thermoquad with headers on that 440 ??
I think it would be OVERKILL if I run my belsaw with my 400... lol I took it mild, 8.5 to 1 compression to run 92 octane, a slight massage camshaft LOL 344 duration, .510 lift, 104 centerline (in that range) 452 heads with single plane intake with the green shaft thermoquad , having bigger butterflies, the second rings in the primarys removed and accelerator pump drilled out.. should flow around 900-950 cfm. .
Not sure what carb they had on it. All my 440s are square bore. I run a predator on the one that's up and running.
Quote from: nk14zp on March 12, 2014, 10:14:04 AM
Quote from: shelbycharger400 on March 11, 2014, 07:54:39 PM
nk14zp... a big ol thermoquad with headers on that 440 ??
I think it would be OVERKILL if I run my belsaw with my 400... lol I took it mild, 8.5 to 1 compression to run 92 octane, a slight massage camshaft LOL 344 duration, .510 lift, 104 centerline (in that range) 452 heads with single plane intake with the green shaft thermoquad , having bigger butterflies, the second rings in the primarys removed and accelerator pump drilled out.. should flow around 900-950 cfm. .
Not sure what carb they had on it. All my 440s are square bore. I run a predator on the one that's up and running.
I like predators! Soon to have a blower under them! Its in my "raft"! Haha!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35841/DSC03526.JPG)
squARE BORE ... ::) holley/ carter afb flange intakes ::)
Lemme tell you, ID NEVER run a holley! dial in a motor with a thermoquad with the pheolic bowl... no vapor lock. You can just about adjust EVERYTHING... down to setting the timing of primary /secondaries to primary and secondary opening at the same time .
I had a big thermoquad on a 327... I couldnt lean that carb out enough but lemme tell you that thing sounded SWEET off idle to wot in very little time!!
You fellas are headed down the wrong trail with those bag swelling dragster engines even near a mill. You want big heavy long stroke diesel with a bottom end. Leave those high revers in the fast cars and boats. Frank C.
Ill be using a 4 cylinder case, their not too bad on fuel
The bell saw that I picked up came from a full time sawyer and was powered by a 351 out of a 70 ford LTD, he ran a thin rope along the wall where he would just give it a twist and he could run the saw from any place down the length of the mill, he ran a 52" saw on the mill. Log loader was a 4x4 51 dodge 2 ton with rear A frame boom. The other day we hiked back in to check on his old Donkey and it is salvageable as well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17725/PART_1394033388673.jpg)
One of the guys I have been getting things from has a two spool donkey out there also. Its in its own enclosure.
There are so many machines out there that I dont know what they do.
One machine is a Stetson Ross Machine works. I think older than the 20s?
Ill have to post some pics.
Chop, I recently set up a bell saw and run it from my tractor. If you want you can come check it out. I live off mountain highway and 288th Graham. I use a old international gas tractor ID-9. Approx 50 engine hp. Blade condition seems to make a big difference. I had a shop off of meridian hammer some blades (42" and 48") and it helps. Have to keep the feed rate going even if you run out of power. Its still kind of a learn as you go business (more like expensive hobby for me).
Quote from: tantoy on March 16, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
Chop, I recently set up a bell saw and run it from my tractor. If you want you can come check it out. I live off mountain highway and 288th Graham. I use a old international gas tractor ID-9. Approx 50 engine hp. Blade condition seems to make a big difference. I had a shop off of meridian hammer some blades (42" and 48") and it helps. Have to keep the feed rate going even if you run out of power. Its still kind of a learn as you go business (more like expensive hobby for me).
Your about 50 blocks from me! Did you have some rigs for sale across the hiway from yourplace this summer? Over by maxes gravel yard? Maybe a toyota and a big ol farmall?
Anyways, I would love to come see it and maybe be able to offer some horsetrading too!
So I bought a power plant today. I was really hoping to find something old and vintage for power.
So I found a 1941 ford flathead straight six. Its a first gen 226ci, 90hp engine.
It looks nice and looks like its an older resto. The guys uncle pulled it out of a restored ford truck in favor of hotrod drivetrain. I found it on craigslist and it was cheap!
Its complete from oilpan to carb. Has a bellhousing and a clutch, but no tranny.
I think its going to match the old mill perfectly (at least look good!) and be cheap to run. My pops (75 yo) is an old hotrodder and knows these things inside and out.
My dad has run a hotrod upholstery shop for 50 years. After talking with the seller for awhile it turns out his uncle has had my dad upholster 3 rigs already and the 41 pickup is scheduled up next at my pops shop!
SMALL WORLD!!
ps Tantoy/Fred, it came from about a mile from your place!
I couldnt pass it up for $100!!
Good deal Chops, but you should really hook up a governor. Once you start to cut your RPM will droop below your hammered speed, which is not good for the saw, you or the lumber. Frank C.
Yep Im looking for one right now.
Can a rob/adapt one off of a tractor? I have an old cub for parts thats all torn down and in boxes. Ill have to look and see if the gov on my cub looks like it could be adapted.
Cub should have a gear on it that runs of the timing gears. I'm not sure how you would do it, but you could probably put a pulley on in place of the gear, but I wouldn't have clue how to match the rpms.
Look for a old gas powered gleaner or john deere combine. They use belt driven govenors on chevy 6 cylinder engines. One of these would be easy to adapt.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on March 18, 2014, 06:57:47 AM
Good deal Chops, but you should really hook up a governor. Once you start to cut your RPM will droop below your hammered speed, which is not good for the saw, you or the lumber. Frank C.
OK Brad, You solved the mystery, pm your # and we can talk and come over and look at my and (mostly my dads) old iron. Check out what we learned about setting up a belsaw. Pretty sure I saw your truck/trailer at emerald this morning on my way to work.
Some of the guys that run auto or truck engines install an after market cruse control, which is nothing but a governor. I have never done it myself but they will work. Frank C.
Quote from: tantoy on March 18, 2014, 09:14:53 PM
OK Brad, You solved the mystery, pm your # and we can talk and come over and look at my and (mostly my dads) old iron. Check out what we learned about setting up a belsaw. Pretty sure I saw your truck/trailer at emerald this morning on my way to work.
Yeah That was me. I was on my way back from Edgewood. We had four units of cedar on the trailer and about 300 fascia in the back of the truck! I was sweating bullets going up the hill into Edgewood! It was all wet fenceboards, about 14k behind me.
I picked up the the ol flathead engine today. Its pretty nice. Ill get some pics tomorrow in the light.
Thanks Fred, Ill shoot ya my number. Be nice to see ya again.
Im kinda fascinated with the cruise control governor.
I think will have to look into the speedo cable hookup and see if the old ford could be adapted.
Chop, the after market cruise controls are real easy to hook up. They don't work off the speedo. A small magnet glued to any rotating part and an electronic pickup coil. Needs a vacuum hose to the intake manifold and a small chain to the throttle arm. Much more flexible than a mechanical governor. That old flat head ford is a good one. They are a bit prone to loose wrist pins..
Can Belsaw be hooked up to direct? No belts?
It seems as if all the automotive style ones I see are hooked up with belts and pulley at some point.
I see tractor ones run off of pto directly. The tractor has a clutch for the slip point.
Are the belts and clutches a safety device thats needed? Or can they be direct drive?
I have noticed people complain about belt and clutch slippage so would eliminating them be better?
I figure an engine running at 2000rpm and a 4 to 1 ratio gearbox would put me right at the 500rpm arbor/blade speed needed.
Am I all wrong here?
Quote from: Chop Shop on March 19, 2014, 04:19:43 PM
Are the belts and clutches a safety device thats needed?
Yes, very much so. When things go horribly bad, you'll be glad you have some sort of break in the power transmission. Safety First! Equipment hooked up direct with no means of disengaging the power source is a recipe for disaster... it can happen before you have time to react.
The normal engine like your flathead ford turns right, a tractor PTO turns left. In other words if you hooked the ford up direct it would turn the saw backwards. You could turn the engine around with a jackshaft, in other words the fan facing the mill. A transmission in reverse would do if you could get enough speed to the arbor. Mills other than Belsaw have the arbor on the sawyers side of the mill and can use a right turning engine. Frank C.
I forgot to add there are some left hand mills that can be powered with a tractor PTO on the sawyers side. No one ever said it was simple. Frank C.
Here's a place for cruise controls.
http://www.rostra.com/index.php
Well are al belsaws run the same way? right/left only one? I see blades get hammered for right and left. Does the saws arbor threads determine/dictate what direction the blade can rotate?
I want to put the engine sideways on the mill trailer. Then put the power around the corner with a ring and pinion There would still be the clutch at the flywheel for disengaging/engaging things.
Can the clutch be considered the "safety"? or maybe I can put in a softer key on the arbor shaft? Seems like the only safety on a tractor is the clutch and PTO shear pin.
I just want to avoid belts if I can.
Are you going to use an old rear end for the ring and pinion? You could rig up a brake master cylinder so that you applied the brake to engage the blade. :D
Chops, I believe all Belsaws are right hand mills. If your standing facing the saw and the carriage passes on your right its a right hander, if it passes on the left its a left hand. Frank C.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on March 19, 2014, 08:56:23 PM
Are you going to use an old rear end for the ring and pinion? You could rig up a brake master cylinder so that you applied the brake to engage the blade. :D
Thats a sweet idea! Ive seen lots of hay loaders that worked like that. My friend George's belsaw is ran that way. His is a 292 chev 6 with the tranny feeding an old rear axle with one brake drum fixed so only the other one turns. Then the other drum runs a flat belt pulley with a flat belt to the mill. It has a twist in the flat belt to correct the direction.
I dont want an axletube hanging off the side of my trailer tho. I was planning to use a 4x4 front diff. That would have a flange (for an axle) right next to the diff and the other flange/axle tube (longer axle) would be removed and capped off. That would give me a very small right angle gearbox that holds lots of gear lube and is FREE. I have the option of 3.9, 4.1, 4.3, 4.6, 4.9 and 5.3 to one gear ratios with this choice in diffs.
The flange would be easy to mount a sprocket to and use a chain drive.
I like the idea of using one axle as the engage/dissengage lever and just eliminating a clutch and possible transmission. but it would double the RMPs after going thru a diff. Thus making the lowest gears in the box turn out to only a 2.65 or so reduction, not the four to one I hope will work best.
I think I will draw up a simple plan and start a Build Thread thats not cluttered with intro stuff.
Ran my belsaw with an inline six cylinder Toyota land cruiser motor for a couple of years. Started out with an electronic cruise control. The cruise control worked ok. Switched over to a belt drive governor and the engine worked even better. I would recommend a governor over a cruise control.
Now running a Detroit with a built in governor. Mo betta!
Tripp
All gas powered combines and win-rower's that had auto engines in them like the slat six dodge and others had belt driven governors. I have one from an m gleaner.
I have a 6.2 chevy diesel that I would like try powering my belsaw with eventually.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on March 19, 2014, 09:28:23 PM
Chops, I believe all Belsaws are right hand mills. If your standing facing the saw and the carriage passes on your right its a right hander, if it passes on the left its a left hand. Frank C.
I came across a left handed Belsaw. It had a real shallow carriage. Kinda an odd ball for a Belsaw. I bought it, but never set it up.
Good Luck to you New guy with a Belsaw M14. I have one that I like a great deal that saws very accurate lumber. I saw on it just about every Saturday. Yes you have to have enough power to run it but it does not have to be excessive. I saw all the time with an old "H Farmall" with no issue at all. I regularly saw 20-22" White/Red Oak and Yellow pine. The key to sawing is taking care of all the little things such as set-up on a good foundation, level lengthwise as well as front to rear. The blade needs to be running true standing up straight & true in the cut with the correct good fitted shanks, sharp bits filed square, saw hung square with the carriage, with both knees advancing equally and square with the carriage. If you have all these little detailed things squared away your little mill will saw pretty lumber for you with relative light power it you let it take its time and saw. Build you a good log deck to take the brunt of turning logs & cants. The hard part is not the sawing, it is handling the 1500-2000 pound logs on the deck and carriage! There is a great deal of good information out there on the Belsaw M-14. We are blessed by many old men that came before us that figured have already figured much of this out for us. You just have to dig it out. Make no mistake I love my little mill and it does a great job for me as a hobby. However, it is a little farmers mill for sawing out things needed on the farm powered most times by a farm tractor's PTO. You can never compare it to one of the old Fricks, Meadows, Vance, Turner's, Moffit's, or Corleys. These were old production mills that built our nation and were built to take the brunt of heavy work day in and day out. Listen to the old "Bandmiller Frank" He will give you some good advice. Good luck to you and be careful. Ease into it kind of slow until you learn what your are doing. Little Jim from down in North Carolina.
Anybody interested in Belsaws should take a look at Little Jim's gallery. He's got quite the operation, there. Very impressive.
Greg
Chop Shop, mine's set up running direct through a drive line from a Chrysler industrial, through a 3 speed transmission in reverse. There's a cable running the clutch connected to a pedal at the sawyer's position so you can throw it out if you need to. There's also a throttle and the key right near there. It's worked that way for the previous owner for over 30 years, so I figured it's good enough for me!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29418/P4140079.JPG)
You can see the clutch "pedal" just to the right of the sawyer's lever here. It latches in the disengaged position when you want, but normally is engaged.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29418/P4140084.JPG)
John
Little Jim, you have a dandy setup there and a nice building. What do you use for power.?? Your Belsaw looks like its new. Frank C.
Hardtail, years ago I stopped to look at a Belsaw with a dodge slant six and automatic tranny. The guy wasn't around but there was a good slab pile and sawdust, must have worked. Frank C.
Thank you Frank for your nice comments. Your posts have helped me great deal. Greg from up in Tn. has also been a great help. I regularly saw with an old 1946 H-Farmall running off the PTO. I really find it is plenty of power. The key as I said in the post is to have your saw in # 1 shape and all your set-up in order. Then it is just a matter of letting it take its time and saw. I can't buy any more accurate lumber than it saws. I have had it about 10-15 years. I bought it out of the woods in a rusty bad state of disrepair and have redone every piece of it. I saw with it just about every Saturday. I am getting ready to rig me up kind of a neat sawdust chain. Have a good rest of your weekend. Little Jim.