We kinda hijacked the "price per square foot" thread with an idea on an "Intro to Timber Framing" weekend course- could call it a short-course, I guess, but we'd want to use fairly long timbers. :D
Several members around the Mississippi area expressed interest and I think we should have a go at it. Will also list this in the "Meetings" forum but things tend to get lost there- I lost track of the first Southern Chapter get together when it was shifted there so I thought it worthwhile to at least have some brainstorming and such on this thread- it is about timberframing afterall.
Anyway: long weekend format, maybe all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday? or Saturday, Sunday and Monday? The latter would allow anyone who had to get back to work on Monday to attend the beginning sessions. Thoughts on time length for such an event? Of course, the course isn't meant to be a full-fledged week-long event, just an intro to allow those of us just starting to get some basic knowledge and start skill and habit development the right way- it's a whole lot easier to start a new habit right than to change a bad habit later.
Next issue: when? I vote for spring when it's warm enough not to freeze our fingers while we work but early enough we don't have to worry about planting (?) and cutting the grass yet. I'd suggest Feb-March although April might be good also.
Next is location: I volunteer my place for several reasons. My "big barn" will be up- 30X60 enclosed with sawmill in a 12X60 shed on the side and plenty of doors and windows to get stuff in and out. Plus, I won't have it filled up yet with "stuff and things," as my son says about all our junk. I also have a timber frame workshop that I've started (baby steps but some of the joints look ok to me) and have a full set of plans for that. We could finish that or start something new. Next, I have tools- Makita 16" saw and a chain mortizer that works great, plus all the assorted hand tools for one worker that we could share among a small group. Also have a small hand planar but would need a big one if get into finishing in a serious way. Last, I've got a whack of timbers already cut (from all the way back to Katrina days) which is both good and bad: lots of size variations to choose from but red oak dried for over a year might be a bear to cut. Very last, I'm willing to kick in a fair amount for expenses for selfish reasons: I want to really learn how to do this and want something concrete to come out the other end that will be useful and will show what can be done.
Group size should be fairly small, I guess- maybe a dozen at most? But that would require that everyone who attends bring their own hand tools. If we had another beam saw and mortizer we'd probably be alright with that number.
Housing: some first-responders (to the list anyway) indicate they have their own RV. Plenty of room on our land to camp and we can have outdoor showers and port-a-pottys ready by then. Might have a room or two in the house but that depends on wife permission, son's family status here, and lots of other things. Oh, we do have lots of hotels around and that might work if that was the major expense for attendees?
Food: everyone bring their own but we have a couple of grills and lots of place for open fires to cook, and if the group is small enough, the wife might (let's hope) whip up a batch of taco soup or red beans and rice. We also have a turkey frier and one or two others brought along would make a great evening meal.
Attendance fee: I don't know- I'm willing to kick in a fair chunk but overall expense would depend on who the instructor/leader was and how far they had to come. Jim Rogers is one option but it's my impression he does mainly week-long events and besides, he lives way, way up there in Yankee land where there's snow on the ground even as we speak- long drive for him. Any body else come to mind that's easy driving distance? Alabama or Georgia, maybe Tennessee or Lousiana? Maybe even Texas, although that is getting into no-man's land in a geographic sense: I don't think they think of themselves as "southeners" do they?
Any other concerns you all can think of? Suggestions?
Should we keep this on the timberframing forum for a while to get the word out better or move to "meetings" right away?
Maybe we could cut the worlds longest SYP board at the same time (Naw! too many irons in one fire)....
Lj
Oh, and just a thought: this doesn't have to be limited to just timber framing. Would be a great opportunity for a Saturday lunch or dinner barbecue/turkey fry/pot luck, whatever for everyone within driving distance to come visit and get to know each other better.
Lj
Awhile back, Logdog (Landon) proposed the same thing. He's in NW Louisiana Haven't heard anything about it since.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=20298.0 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=20298.0)
Anyway count me in 4 days, 5 days - don't matter, I'll make the time. Just let me know how much would be my fair share and it's yours.
Ricky
Ricky (firecord): great, thanks for the fast response. So far, people interested include:
Ricky (firecord)
Pineywoods
Pineywoods son
Donnie (DWM II)
Lj (me that is)
My daughter (who is also an accomplished bag piper and mother)
maybe one of my sons
Couple more and it's worth serious detail planning.
Lj
As you aren't too far up the road from me, it would be a shame if I didn't try and make it out there. :)
Looking forward to see how things pan out. Keen on finding out a firm date.
I think this is a great thing to do. Count me as interested.
I'll have to see how my schedule works out. All my help is off to schools right now.
Thanks, Frank/Radar, I'll add you to the interested list.
Looking at dates: how about the second week in March, say Friday, March 7 or that Saturday? We can plan on the weekend, or as one of the interested responders said, maybe we could go a full week... thoughts?
Lj
LJ,
I rarely post but am the ultimate lurker. I was planning on registering for the Grand Oaks school but you can never get enough training. I am years away from building my house but plan on building a timber framed workshop soon.
I live in West GA so count me in for your plans also.
Thanks for trying to put this together.
It's time for you who have said they are interested to step up and make a commitment so this workshop is a success for all.....
Jim Rogers
Checks in the mail!
LJ, my check is in the mail. 8)
The workshop is definitely on so any latecomers, please don't hesitate to let me know. I've got copies of the Build a Traditional Timber Frame book coming to send to everyone ahead of time plus some additional information from Jim on tools and such. We do have some cheapish motels in the Hattiesburg area (10 miles from us) so you might want to check hotels.com or other discount suppliers. Also, feel free to camp or RV on the land- plenty of room for that and weather should be warm (although dry we can't promise- rains off and on this time of year).
Got 1/4 of the metal siding on the big barn and 1/8 of the metal roofing- hopefully will have all the roofing on by the workshop. Putting up 28' sheets of 26 gauge ain't a one-man job, much to my dismay, but the neighbor and my son have been helping and we're making steady progress.
Lj
LJ, is there room under roof in the barn for a small tent? I'd like to stay on the farm but staying dry might be important also. Also, will there be a port-o-can available?
I like the book selection as well (I aint got that one yet). Who wrote that one? I've got one by Chappell and one by Benson already.
Donnie
Here's the book Jim recommended; got 8 on order and should be here early next week- I'll ship them to attendees as soon as I get them.
Build a Classic Timber-Framed House
Planning & Design/Traditional Materials/Affordable Methods
(Paperback)
by Jack A. Sobon
Also ordered a couple extra Barr chisels and some mallets so we should have tools available for anyone that needs them. Of course, you're much better off bringing your own since that's what you'll use on your own TF projects.
Lj
Forgot to address the "dry" part- sure, you can stay in the barn but it has a concrete floor... we have some air mattresses if you don't have your own. I'm hoping the weather will be fine by then.
And yes, I plan on a port-a-port as long as I don't have to do the porting- got to find out who supplies those around here.
LJ, Southern On Site Sanitation is one I've used recently. They are very reliable.
LJ,
Is this confirmed for Mar 7?....or that weekend?...or did we decide to go all week?
I have that book but need to know how much the check is and where to send.
Thanks, Brian
We're definitely "go" for March 7-13, six fun-filled days of education and hands-on training led by Jim Rogers (from the Forestry Forum) who will be flying down to work with us. We'll start early Friday morning to give those who can only do a long weekend a chance to participate. For those who can stay, we'll continue on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday with more advanced work. Hope you can join us.
Lj
Somehow we (meaning me) got two topics going on the same event- some of the information is on the other post a few lines down but in short, cost is $200 for the weekend and $450 for the entire 6 days. More information forthcoming shortly.
Lj
Looks like we have at least 6 and maybe 8 attendees so were definitely going to hold the workshop- sent Jim Rogers a deposit and he'll get reservations shortly for the trip down. I'll be sending out more information on what to bring shortly but anyone else interested in either the short or the long version of the workshop let me know as soon as you can.
BTW, got 2/3 of the siding up on the barn we'll be working in and 1/8th of the metal roof on- plus build a passal of sawhorses for us to work on. Probably build a couple more sets over the next two weeks- time is getting short...
Lj
Hey LJ, sounds like its shaping up well. I take it you received my deposit?
Yes, I did- meant to email you. Got a call from another attendee last night- looks like we'll have a great turnout and I think it will be a great experience.
Lj
I'll post this here now and send PM's to everyone next week; gives a chance for new sign-ups to respond without the PM:
Anyone interested in sharing a room at a local motel for all or part of the workshop March 7-13, please let me know. I'll keep the list private and just send to those who respond that they are interested.
Lj
Sorry to bother you all again- I need snail mail addresses for all the participants so I can send out a copy of Sobon's book for you to study before you get here. Also, take a look at the Tools for Timber Framing and make sure you have a minimum to get started. I have a few extra chisels and planes but the mallets I ordered are backordered- if you don't have framing chisels and mallets, let me know so we can have enough for everyone to work productively on their own.
Lj
LJ,
I'm sure you already thought about this, but don't forget to setup some type of sharpening station/area.
Bruce
Any of yous guys wana share a hotell room? Or got room in your camper for a poor boy?
Thanks subsailer... a sharpening station is a great idea and I was hoping Jim would teach us some of the fundamentals for chisels and planes.
Also, I think all the hotel/motels in the area are listed at the link below but without rankings. The ones at the intersections of Hardy St/Highway 98 and I59 or Highway 49 and I59 are relatively new and should be good bets:
http://www.trails.com/all-hotels/city-hotel.asp?dest=MS+Hattiesburg
Going to work on finishing the roofing on the barn today- one of my boys said he would help. Can't seem to pick up and lug up sheets of 26 gauge that are 28' long by myself anymore (as if I ever could!). Also should have electricity there by the workshop if all goes well, or we string more really long extension cords.
Lj
Got a room mate! Can't wait
LJ, I received my Sobon book this afternoon. Been scraping a few tools together as well. I'm getting pumped.
Donnie
We're getting geared up for the workshop as well. Books going out but we need to finalize tool needs: if anyone needs help with basic tools for the workshop, please let me know. Got some extra chisels and handsaws, and am supposed to have extra mallets (backordered). Might want to check Jim's list and see which you can bring with you.
Lj
Lon:
Should I pack some shorts?
Is it going to be warm enough down there for them?
How's the roof coming along?
Are we going to be dry?
Jim Rogers
Yes, I'd bring some shorts- 70 today and tomorrow and should be warm next weekend also.
Hope to get most of the roof on this weekend- good help is hard to come by...
Lj
LJ, I won't get to make the sessions, but I may be able to drop by Friday evening and Sunday afternoon.
Radar- you've welcome anytime. Hope to see you then.
Lj
I look forward to seeing you as well Stew.
Time to finalizing some details:
Weather: looks great for the entire time (but that's based on weather.com predictions and they were way off today- tornadoes sighted nearby again): chance of rain given as 10% most of the time. Temperatures should range from chilly in the morning to comfortable most of the days to a few times with summer-like temps (70's). Bring cool work clothes and a jacket/sweatshirt.
Books: only sent out a couple copies of Sobon's book. If anyone needs one before the workshop let me know now along with address to mail to.
Tools: got a couple extra chisels, saws and four brand new 18 oz urethane mallets- great weight and feel to them. Please try to briing some of the tools listed in Jim's thread.
Food: we'll play this by ear but we'll provide coffee Friday morning and lunch on Friday, then see what the will of the group is...
Drop-ins: you all are welcome to stop by anytime during the weekend or M-W of the following week. We can be found on mapquest.com by entering "7 Mathias Hollow, Purvis, MS"
Hotel rooms: anyone interested in sharing, let me know now- still one person willing to share.
Any questions, send them my way on the forum or by PM.
Lj
The highs for the weekend are expected to be lower 50s to lower 60s. Some of you southern boys should bring your coats. Jim, the shorts are probably still good for you. :D
I'll be prepared for warm or cool weather.....
I dropped in on Jim and Lon and the guys this afternoon for a while. They were having a good time. The weather was wet and cold, but all were really getting into the layout of a post.
When I left, it started snowing...guess Jim brought it with him. I'm going back Sunday and will take some pictures then.
Nice group of guys.
Time for an update now that we've been at it for a couple of days. First, didn't get the barn roof but half finished and half a roof doesn't keep out the rain although you do have a place to work under. It rained on Thursday so water everywhere but gradually dried up on Friday. Second, weather was miserable the first day- cold and damp that sucked the heat out of you like mosquitoes sucking blood. We persevered and Jim was great at keeping us learning despite the cold. Got a great start Friday inside learning the basics of reading plans and getting ready for doing the layout. Third, and kinda sad- one of the guys had to go home for personal reasons and missed out and my daughter realized that she would love to help me but didn't have the "call" to be a timber framer (yet anyway).
Saturday was great- sun came out, temperature came up some and we all worked on layout on several posts. Some of the guys worked alone but I worked with Jeff who was really getting into it. Turned out working in pairs was perfect for the two of us- we got each others mistakes and helped each other learn how to implement some of the ideas and tricks Jim showed us: teaching is the best way to lock in new ideas. We got four posts laid out by end of work on Saturday.
One of the real pluses of having Jim work with us (and there are many)is his vast library of information. We have had lap-top presentations both nights for a couple of hours and seen examples of joints, bents and raisings that have been great for helping us visualize the processes and results. Gets the blood moving when you see a 7 bent barn with three stories going up over a couple of days- something to look forward to long-term.
Learned some key leasons: have lots of extra wood (I'm stingy with mine as I've been trying to cut for the workshop while building a big stick and pole barn while working a job while .... you get the picture). Planning is crucial and having enough time to prepare even more important. Next time (hopefully) we'll have stacks of perfect timbers to choose from.
Next lesson: watch for bugs. Turns out some of the timbers have powder post beetles in them, dang it! Didn't know it myself (not having experienced them before and shown what their holes look like) so when Donny pointed them out, I was heartsick- every timber for the posts in the workshop is infested. Problem is: no backup posts of red oak. Sure, got some poplar and gum and pine, but the bug-free red oak isn't cut. Now the problem is do we continue on or try and use fresh wood? Time is short so we decide to continue on using the buggy wood. I'll either treat heavily or re-do all the posts later (ouch!). Inexperience is a great thing: you have so much to learn that everything is new and exciting. Downside is: you do lots of ignorant, even stupid things that make the learning painful. Well, it's like riding a bicycle, I guess- got to fall down and cut skinned up lots to finally get to the fun part.
So, here we are on Sunday, ready to start at 8 (really 7 since daylight savings time just kicked in) and making great progress on learning but with buggy oaks. The good and bad all mix together just like real life.
Pictures on the way later today.
Lj
Just posted a bunch of pictures of this meeting in my Gallery under TF Workshop.
Here are a few highlights...
Jim was talking about the saw horses and the ponies and asked what these were
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TF26.jpg)
He said they must be dachshund :D :D
Here is a good action shot of Jim
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TF24.jpg)
Here is one of the forum members paying the piper...dropped his chisel on the cement. (I had to Brian)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TF23.jpg)
A chain Mortiser in action
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TF19.jpg)
We had a good day today, the weather was nice, the fellowship was good, and work got done...couldn't ask for more.
LJ that is one nice looking barn. You need to hold that bunch of forumites captive and make them help finish the roof ;D Wish I could have been there, but it just wasn't in the cards..
Wish I could have been there! Looks like you all had some fun. Dachshund, Ha! :D The Gould Farm barn raising on Jims shirt was less than 10 miles from here, my friend Phil Newey was GC. They were hit by a tornado in '95.
Dave
Thanks, Radar, for posting those-
Radar couldn't get off to participate full time but he actually got to work on a mortise yesterday with great success. Dachshund, huh- well, it could have been worse but the good news is, we needed them and they work great for holding timbers that we're using the chain mortiser on.
I'll post some pictures later but got to get ready for the days activities- tie beams to cut and I would guess we'll start on braces and girts and floor joists which should be a whole lot faster. Things are getting really exciting now- looks like we'll actually get to raise a good portion of the central section. Yea!
Lj
It has been a very informative clinic. Jim's ability to share knowledge is excellent. :P I had to leave Sun. evening but I am heading back to Ms first thing in the morning. 8) I hope to see our work go UP. LJ, I'll be there 'round eight or so, see yall then.
Donnie.
Great, Donny- we're making excellent progress and your post is waiting for you. Meanwhile, the first picture below shows how instruction went occasionally- two observers, one person cutting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/two_supervisors_one_worker.jpg)
And now we see one of the participants- Brian from Georgia (who is really a displaced Texan)- contemplating his next cut; or maybe he's just praying for divine help to get it right?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/Brian_praying.jpg)
Now we see Jeff getting ready to use the "little" Makita- still big enough to take your leg off:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/Jeff_with_Makita.jpg)
And here is a priceless photo- our fearless leader cutting a post in a race-to-the-finish with the Cajun participant, Donny.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/Jim_and_Donny_cutting_posts.jpg)
Enough for now- too tired to do anymore and my eyes keep closing. We cut one brace today (or rather Jim did and he instructed us in sequence on the fine art of brace layout, cutting and fitting) and hope to cut some floor joists, girts and more braces tomorrow. Who knows? At the rate we're increasing our speed and error-free in layout and cutting, maybe we'll actually get something up...
Lj
Just a quick update for anyone interested- more pictures later when I get caught up with all the things I should have been doing instead of a workshop.
One of the guys got sick- the kind of flu that we don't talk about for fear of getting it just by thinking about it- so he had to miss the last two days. He was doing great, too- learning fast and cutting pretty well, got most of complicated post cut or roughed out and we finished it up on Wednesday.
The two stalwarts were Donny and Brian (and I made it by shear willpower- I was exhausted by the last day yesterday- overslept by two hours this morning!). They did fantastic- laying out posts, doing a brace each and learning how to do floor joists two ways- with dovetails and as drop-ins. Dovetails are a tough and won't be in the rest of the joists I cut by myself. In fact, I'll have some strange looking joists between bents 1 and 2- dovetail on one end, drop-ins on the other. Time is money, as they say, or in this case, time is time and I have only so much of it and I do want to get this workshop up so I can roof and do the dry-in.
Overall, having a small group was both good and bad. Good for the teaching and learning- lots of individual attention and group interaction- was a great week in that respect and what a great bunch of guys to work with. I feel confident to continue cutting on my own now- I did cut one bent and raise it by myself before the workshop, and now I know how to do things a much better way. I can visualize each piece, see how it fits into the whole frame and keep the joints straight in my mind, plus cut them a lot faster and with more precision than before. It's absolutely true that practice makes better (no where near perfect yet) and having whole days to focus just on timber framing was crucial. You need blocks of time- big ones- to get your mind wrapped around what you're doing, learn and re-learn the individual steps, find your mistakes and figure out how to fix them (put one brace housing in upside down- boy, did that look funny when we started fit-up!). If anyone out there is thinking about learning to timber frame- at least to get started- I'd say the only way to learn it well so you don't develop bad habits (like I was) is to go to a workshop. You need the blocks of time, the expert instruction and oversight, and the group dynamics to reinforce all the components- the visulization, layout, cutting sequence, error checking and fixing, fit-up and fine tuning. The whole process is not just a bunch of individual steps but an integrated process that must (for me) be learned and reinforced in total from start to finish. That old saying about teaching old dogs new tricks is partly true- you just have to teach him a few times in sequence.
I have to say that one of the best aspects of the workshop was my wife- you she made everyone feel at home in the house where we did some of the instruction (two rainy half-days that were cold enough it was hard to motivate outside work). She also kept our energy levels up- homemade cookies and brownies everyday with coffee she carried out from the house. Forty one years isn't enough to appreciate a good wife so I guess I'll have to keep her for another forty one.
Enough for an update. Jim and I will be working on a debriefing to try to improve for next time- which I hope to have in the fall but probably won't happen to winter or next spring. I thing there is enough of an interest down here in the deep South to do at least one more of these. Anyone reading this who might be interested, let me know. We'll put out announcements a lot earlier next time, and hopefully have a place for participants to bunk- assuming I get my workshop up and finished, the loft would be a great place to sleep for a week.
Lj
I am really enjoying this thread. Can't wait for more pics. :) I really enjoyed the workshop I took in 2006, I am hoping to do it again this fall. Workshops are so much better than reading about it.
Dave
Hello to all,
I am the confused one who drops chisels and is spends a lot of time standing over my timber getting the picture in my mind. I had a great time. Lon's first bent was already up and the process of making changes for adjustments was very helpful.
Jim is a sweetheart of a guy and a very good teacher. Each day he had a new t-shirt from past workshops and raisings which emphasizes the need for continuing education. We may have needed more folks for the actual completion and raising but I appreciated having Jim's almost undivided attention and personally got more applicable knowledge by working on my own post and figuring out problems and solving them. For any of you who are comtemplating having a workshop to get your projects started or move them further along - I highly recommend Jim as an instructor....you will be amazed and pleased with his input and teaching.
Many thanks to Lon and his wife B.J. for hosting this event. I really enjoyed meeting Donnie, Stew, and Jeff. I will upload pictures when I get more time....with three kids and work I am backed up.
Thanks again to all,
Brian
P.S. Now all I can think about is how to get my workshop started and how to explain to the CFO here that I really need a chain mortiser, more chisels, a 16 inch Makita, around 100 assorted clamps, a worm drive 10 saw, etc. By the way, I am the ultimate lurker on the forums but never really got how many tools Jim has.....make sure you call him before you purchase chisels, mallets, commanders, etc.
Boy-Howdy, did we ever have a fine time.
I have a new respect for all those who have managed to build anything using timber, chisel, plane and square. I already am drawing my first project, a sign for my wifes business. A small two bent frame with common rafters.
It was also nice to meet and put a face to the names we become familiar with here. Thanks Lon and B.J for yalls hospitality, and thanks Jim for coming down here to teach a few southern fellas as best we could learn.
It was also good to meet Expatriated Texan (Brian), and Jeff, keep us up to date on what your doing with the craft.
Like Brian, I also am trying to figure how to convince the BOSS that I really need all those nice tools.
It was good to see Stew again as well.
All in all, it was a great experience for me.
Donnie
Anyone reading this who might be interested, let me know. We'll put out announcements a lot earlier next time, and hopefully have a place for participants to bunk-
LJ, I would be interested.Thanx Doug
Well, I'm home now, after a long week in Mississippi....
I'm sorry I brought some cold weather down there with me..... I never did get into any shorts, but more than one day I was down to just a tank top....
Lon's place was great. A nice shop to work in despite the half roof, and running off an extension cord for power.
Lon's wonderful wife, keep us feed with cookies and brownies, as well as a few lunches and always coffee, and cold soft drinks.
Some of Lon's timbers gave us a challenge but understanding how to overcome these challenges is an important lesson.
Mistakes, especially my layout mistakes, just goes to show all that you have to check and double check all these things before you put a saw to the wood.
When, I'd say something wrong, and these fine "students" would catch me using the wrong term, or wrong name of the side of a timber, I'd say: "that was a test, and you just passed it!". We had a lot of tests and everyone passed.... ;D :D
And I must say, I have never taught a bunch of finer students than this bunch of "Southern Gentlemen."..........
I had a great time and I hope we can do it again......
Jim Rogers
I was very keen on attending but it got to the point on our house where I was staying up until 2 AM trying to finish before the construction loan went up. Stressful time, that was.
Well, it has since been completed so I'm FREE for the next class. ...and I SURE hope there'll be another one.
Really enjoyed reading through the posts, and seeing the pictures of you guys learning and working.
P.S. We live in Poplarville - not far below Purvis - so we would perhaps be able to provide space in our new house for a participant or two during the next workshop.